These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

A Message Regarding "Hyperdunking"

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1361 - 2015-02-19 03:10:38 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Bingo.
Church of HTFU dogma is all about ISK.


*sigh*

No, it's not. It's about the fact that I love this game, and I'd rather not see it die of stagnation because CCP is unwilling to address the sacred cow of highsec.

As for "buff everywhere else instead!", I don't think that's feasible, nevermind that you and I are talking about near complete equivalents as far as the end results on the players is concerned.

The reason buffing other areas of space will not work is that it creates runaway inflation. Inflation, as you might know, dramatically hurts new players since their ability to generate PvE income scales much less well than everyone else in the game. Their relative purchasing power is cut sharply. (this is in evidence merely in the cost of T1 ship prices over the last five years. That's inflation at work. What used to cost a new player a few hundred thousand isk, now costs 1 or 2 million. But their income from L1 and L2 missions has remained unchanged.




Quote:

The best indication is this: when the new scanning came about in 2009, the people running lowsec missions or mining started getting slaughtered wholesale because any monkey with probes could scan them out. I remember numerous long threads about it. There was the usual HTFU rhetoric that overlooked that yes, there are ways not to get scanned out in a mission and get ganked, but if you can't even finish said mission it's still a loss. (I recommended that lowsec needed a different mission profile, something more involved with speed that had more challenge but took less time) .


Wait... didn't you, just before this part, go off about "mechanics that make playing the game more of a headache"? Or does that only apply when it benefits carebears?


Quote:


Just like the mission runner who won't "chance" it in lowsec, the PVPer don't want to chance it either. Mechanics. All around.


And wrong. Again.

Predators go where the prey are. Since CCP hasn't provided any real reason for the prey to live anywhere else, the prey mostly live in highsec. Well, that and nullsec, but then if I recall correctly you have a huge problem with afk cloaking, one of the few reasonable ways to actually get at people in null, either.

And through all of this, you are missing the real problem.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Valterra Craven
#1362 - 2015-02-19 04:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

No, it's not.


Given that a majority of your arguments seem centered around isk in hi-sec, it can be hard to tell.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

As for "buff everywhere else instead!", I don't think that's feasible
The reason buffing other areas of space will not work is that it creates runaway inflation.


Well that would depend on what you were talking about changing. I've been a player since 2006 and you know what hasn't changed much since then? The income that you can get from missions. This is despite the numerous changes to low and null and even the addition of wormholes.

So here is the crux of why I think your arguments about nerfing hi-sec in general are short sited. I'd like you to think about this question, Inflation aside. Why are wormholes some of the most lucrative space despite the fact that very little "isk" is generated from doing things there?

The problem with your argument is that buffing other areas of space does not solely have to come from things that are isk printing machines. There are valid ways to buff other areas of space without unbalancing the game due to a high rise of inflation. I think wormholes were a perfect example of how you could create an extremely rich player base without ever really needing to dump isk directly into their pockets.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
(this is in evidence merely in the cost of T1 ship prices over the last five years. That's inflation at work.


I disagree. I argued pretty heavily with Greyscale and other posters in goons whom I have the utmost respect for( EDIT:mynnna and Querns) back before the industry changes happened that having an install cost that scales with the final market price of an item was a supremely bad idea. In the end I did get what I wanted (install costs based on the combined price of the building materials instead) but not without taking a few shots in the side with my arguments on inflation.The problem with my argument as presented to me was that inflation isn't actually all that high in Eve as evidenced by all the reports from the former resident economist. (EDIT, I found the thread and the result, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=340393&p=40 post 787, but I'm having trouble finding exactly where it was pointed out to me that inflation has been low in Eve. That might take more digging than I find worth it, but I also find it funny that Sabriz was also in that thread with me)

In fact, i think a primary reason why we are paying more for goods now is not due to inflation, but is in actuality due to the changes in industry that were rolled out last year. Not only did the cost of building things go up, but this also introduced a HUUUUGE isk sink into the game that previously did not exist. That alone would have acted as big drag on inflation numbers despite the fact that the market prices on most things went up. Remember inflation is not the sole factor on how much prices rise or fall.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

And wrong. Again

Predators go where the prey are.


Here too I believe you are wrong (even if only semantically). Predators go where the weakest and easiest prey are. This is evident in everything found in nature. And funnily enough this is actually something you yourself have argued. ("Why would you gank a tanked webbed freighter when you can kill an untanked afk one?")

But that aside, one thing that I think both of you are missing, is that recent dev posts by CCP indicate that activity in both Null and Low-sec is increasing since the patch cadence has gone through the roof.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Since CCP hasn't provided any real reason for the prey to live anywhere else, the prey mostly live in highsec.


Well given everything you've said about what CCP's role is and is not in this thread, its not up to them to provide prey for you. This is a sandbox remember. Provide your own prey.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1363 - 2015-02-19 05:57:07 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Predators go where the prey are. Since CCP hasn't provided any real reason for the prey to live anywhere else, the prey mostly live in highsec. Well, that and nullsec, but then if I recall correctly you have a huge problem with afk cloaking, one of the few reasonable ways to actually get at people in null, either.

And through all of this, you are missing the real problem.



Wrong. You are missing my point that the predators are also prey and are ending up where the prey is for the same reason that the prey was there. Sure you can be the hunter of highsec but it's a target rich environment for the same reasons that low and null are target poor (and when you find a target, you become the prey).

The predators of highsec are having to deal with the same travel and power projection mechanics as the prey. As I recall the prey was everywhere at one time until it became infeasible to be prey.

Of course one need not be prey out of highsec, but farmer and PVPer alike will have to be something undesirable to both parties: renters. And if you want to prey on other renters, then you ain't able to pay your rent and the return on your KB is not going to be like it would be for staying in highsec ganking freighters, AWOXing, and all that.

Hyperdunking is just another invention of the "predators" who are just as much over a barrel as their prey, and like AWOXing and Aggro-fu, it will get overused. I warn you people that making the sandbox less about sand will threaten it, and then the playground monitor has to intervene. And then you will complain about that too.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1364 - 2015-02-19 06:05:42 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Hyperdunking is just another invention of the "predators" who are just as much over a barrel as their prey, and like AWOXing and Aggro-fu, it will get overused. I warn you people that making the sandbox less about sand will threaten it, and then the playground monitor has to intervene. And then you will complain about that too.


Stop blaming us for using some of the few avenues we have left to actually play the game.

Your mentality is that, unless we want to have things taken away from us, we better not use them. That's a pathetic way to live, and it handcuffs people every bit as much as the consequences you're promising.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1365 - 2015-02-19 06:12:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Hyperdunking is just another invention of the "predators" who are just as much over a barrel as their prey, and like AWOXing and Aggro-fu, it will get overused. I warn you people that making the sandbox less about sand will threaten it, and then the playground monitor has to intervene. And then you will complain about that too.


Stop blaming us for using some of the few avenues we have left to actually play the game.

Your mentality is that, unless we want to have things taken away from us, we better not use them. That's a pathetic way to live, and it handcuffs people every bit as much as the consequences you're promising.



This is like talking to a wall. Did you know you typed this:

Stop blaming us for using some of the few avenues we have left to actually play the game.


I'm trying to tell you why you have so few avenues left. And it's not carebears and it's not highsec and it's not mission/incursion ISK. Yet you remain blind to the bigger picture.

Ah well. Maybe it's all you know. I have seen the bigger picture. Surely if an activist from a rising society crosses paths with an activist from the same society while it's in decline they'll see different reasons for said decline.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1366 - 2015-02-19 06:17:21 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I'm trying to tell you why you have so few avenues left.


No, you're trying to blame people who are playing the game. In defense of people who actively aren't.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1367 - 2015-02-19 10:54:02 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I'm trying to tell you why you have so few avenues left.


No, you're trying to blame people who are playing the game. In defense of people who actively aren't.


Like AFK Cloaky Campers perhaps

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1368 - 2015-02-19 11:00:55 UTC
What's wrong with cloaky camping? Are they earning ISK while AFK?

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1369 - 2015-02-19 11:51:23 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
What's wrong with cloaky camping? Are they earning ISK while AFK?


No, and that's the important distinction that they will go well out of their way to ignore.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1370 - 2015-02-19 11:55:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

I'm trying to tell you why you have so few avenues left.


No, you're trying to blame people who are playing the game. In defense of people who actively aren't.


Like AFK Cloaky Campers perhaps


Nothing to do with income, you talked about people not playing the game and I added a group that does not play the game.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
What's wrong with cloaky camping? Are they earning ISK while AFK?


No, and that's the important distinction that they will go well out of their way to ignore.


As you spend most of your time in hisec you are not aware of people who ask for ISK to leave system, so yes they can earn ISK.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1371 - 2015-02-19 12:32:15 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

As you spend most of your time in hisec you are not aware of people who ask for ISK to leave system, so yes they can earn ISK.


That's a meta activity. You can just as easily make them sing you a song too.

There is no mechanical benefit derived from it, and therefore it is not an income generation activity.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1372 - 2015-02-19 13:05:42 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and the one quoting them. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1373 - 2015-02-19 15:09:37 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


As you spend most of your time in hisec you are not aware of people who ask for ISK to leave system, so yes they can earn ISK.

If theyre asking for isk to leave system, theyre not AFK.....
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1374 - 2015-02-19 15:42:22 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


As you spend most of your time in hisec you are not aware of people who ask for ISK to leave system, so yes they can earn ISK.

If theyre asking for isk to leave system, theyre not AFK.....


Obviously at that point no, but what difference does that make when they are in system 23.50 / 24 and 7 / 7? They must be AFK at some point to sleep, eat, pee, defecate, work, kick the dog, hump the wife or husband or a goat.or whatever takes their fancy.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1375 - 2015-02-19 15:44:13 UTC
Please refrain from reposting previously moderated posts.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1376 - 2015-02-19 16:35:27 UTC
All I can say is blasted industrials aren't safe Twisted

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1377 - 2015-02-19 19:19:22 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Hyperdunking is just another invention of the "predators" who are just as much over a barrel as their prey, and like AWOXing and Aggro-fu, it will get overused. I warn you people that making the sandbox less about sand will threaten it, and then the playground monitor has to intervene. And then you will complain about that too.


Stop blaming us for using some of the few avenues we have left to actually play the game.

Your mentality is that, unless we want to have things taken away from us, we better not use them. That's a pathetic way to live, and it handcuffs people every bit as much as the consequences you're promising.



This is like talking to a wall. Did you know you typed this:

Stop blaming us for using some of the few avenues we have left to actually play the game.


I'm trying to tell you why you have so few avenues left. And it's not carebears and it's not highsec and it's not mission/incursion ISK. Yet you remain blind to the bigger picture.

Ah well. Maybe it's all you know. I have seen the bigger picture. Surely if an activist from a rising society crosses paths with an activist from the same society while it's in decline they'll see different reasons for said decline.




They act as if the players have no agency, no choice as the whether they will embrace a risk averse pvp in highsec or take risks to find content elsewhere.

If you force all the easy targets, in many cases people who are structurally unable to match you because of SP, to die for your amusement over and over, you'll soon find yourself with none left. What do you think the game will look like when there are no players left save for the risk averse "elite" pvp'ers.

"Few avenues left to play the game." So now killing the easy targets in highsec is the whole game? Wardeccing, ganking, and baiting newbs and dumbs - that's the whole game? I'm going to have to start telling the guys in FW space (arguably the most pvp-active regions in the game) that they're doing it wrong.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1378 - 2015-02-19 19:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


They act as if the players have no agency, no choice as the whether they will embrace a risk averse pvp in highsec or take risks to find content elsewhere.

If you force all the easy targets, in many cases people who are structurally unable to match you because of SP, to die for your amusement over and over, you'll soon find yourself with none left. What do you think the game will look like when there are no players left save for the risk averse "elite" pvp'ers.

"Few avenues left to play the game." So now killing the easy targets in highsec is the whole game? Wardeccing, ganking, and baiting newbs and dumbs - that's the whole game? I'm going to have to start telling the guys in FW space (arguably the most pvp-active regions in the game) that they're doing it wrong.



It is the only avenue for them though because Gankers are everything that they hate in this game, Risk adverse. They pvp by shooting things that can't shoot back because they are to adverse to risk too shoot players who are ready and willing to press F1 in defense.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#1379 - 2015-02-19 20:30:04 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If you force all the easy targets, in many cases people who are structurally unable to match you because of SP, to die for your amusement over and over, you'll soon find yourself with none left. What do you think the game will look like when there are no players left save for the risk averse "elite" pvp'ers.

Eve is dying?

Highsec has literally never been safer since Eve was released and you somehow conclude that only now, almost 12 years later, everyone is going to quit because they don't like conflict with other players? If these people who are unable (for some unknown reason) to compete with other players are so fragile, why did they wait around for a dozen years over multiple buffs in security to highsec to only quit now?

I think this is an appropriate quote for this juncture in this thread:

CCP Falcon wrote:
I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now.

Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that.

Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on.

That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas.

EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe.

Sorry, but your scaremongering counter argument makes no sense to me and carries no weight Smile


Demerius, your argument makes no sense to me and carries no weight. Smile

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1380 - 2015-02-19 20:42:35 UTC
Looks like a redditor gets it. Look at him go!

If only more freighter pilots were this resourceful.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein