EVE General Discussion

I'm interested in what he has to say, but discuss it elsewhere, where it won't be removed.

/backseatmoderating

I want lowsec and nullsec to be more friendly towards conflict, more obscenely lucrative, and much less of a radical departure from every other area of space.

Think about why I am answering you that way. Let go of the anger, Luke. Use the logic.

You are not suppose to discuss forum moderation. File a ticket.



You don't have to.


Yes this is correct. You are not suppose to feel, or actually be 100% safe anywhere in New Eden. For a freighter in space you can always be brute-forced ganked by a fleet of 150 Tornados pretty much whatever you do (even though this is not a credible risk for anyone worth even considering, but is theoretically possible). This is as intended however, and is not at all a problem with the game design.

That said, I am not sure why though you feel entitled to fly any ship, especially a slow industrial through a system where 150 players are actively hunting you. If a system is that dangerous, or you are being pusued by an enemy with the resources to muster such opposition, you should be seeking out alternatives to moving your goods through the hotspot rather than "counters" to get through a particular system. For example, you might use a small, more nimble ship and go around, or set an alterntive route or time for your hauling, or pass the goods off to a courier company to take the risk.

However, this is just a theoretical risk; under normal circumstances if you take a few precautions (webbing scout, fitting tank, not carrying too much) your chance of being ganked in a freighter is so low, it is statistically indistinguishable from zero giving you a near 100% chance of making any given trip. No adversary is going to commit the resources necessary for such a targetted attack unless you are carrying 100B worth of stuff and if you do that, you better bring a proper escort fleet as the game designers intend.

Herzog let me try:

CCP did a nerf to poor and medium truesec Sov space, this caused a mass exodus of people from 0.0 and into hisec, it was evident before that it was better to be in null than hisec and many people did so, upgrqading their system and surrounding systems to make them lucrative, this enabled them to have fall backs in case of the cloaky camping, so they could use their space to make ISK.

I think that the issue was that it looked likely to cause massive inflation, so CCP nerfed that saying they wanted to create conflict around good truesec systems, instead people just left 0.0. As if these small groups could get a good system, dream on CCP all you did was reinforce the big entities and the malaise we see now was deepened by that decision.

Incursions were introduced which did not help in terms of peoples perception of hisec, run often by alts of null sec players and in any case they are run by a sub-set of hisec players, and yet they are often cited as being unbalanced as if all of hisec runs them, dream on guys dream on.

In affect it was the simple fact of making null less lucrative.

Another issue, I play as a solo or small group player, and I found that being such a player in null is impossible, many people in hisec play Eve on that basis and most have been forced back to hisec. We have lost ninja mining due to making the sigs warp straight to rather than requiring them to be scanned, ninja belt ratting for faction officers because every man and his dog now has a BLOPS and then to add to the misery D-scan immunity, gathering of resources from gun mining nerfed by refining changes that cut the value by 50%.

So in effect the solo and small gang group that would live in that space have no reason to go there and end up rescuing the damsel every day to make ISK in missions that are so boring it hurts and yet are only relieved from the boredom by having a reasonable ISK level. So people want to nerf the ISK from level 4's and make people grind more, not sensible guys not sensible at all.

I am not going back to 0.0 as a solo or small group player to be carpet AFK cloaky camped by a load of ISK rich bored lazy scum who play other games while waiting for people to do something to get the perfect execution type kill with 0 risk, while my income has been severely reduced. This is the reality of it, they can kid themselves as much as they want, but it is just not going to happen and I was a player who enjoyed the thrill of operating in dangerous areas, now it's just not fun...

Kaarous is a hisec player who has spent time in WH space if I remember from his previous posts, he has no idea of the changes I just detailed. He just sits there going level 4's give too much ISK and they are not dangerous, which in itself is now true because of that nerf to income in null I detailed above

I don't know what CCP are going to do in terms of Sov space, but I am not going there except looking for some helpless sap to try my BLOPS out on and of course add to the pressure. Yes the CFC through hard work and working together have managed to create a relatively safe area and others try to emulate that too, they are playing the game, but once you have done that 4 or 5 times to be crushed by the same overwhelming force you no longer want to play as a punch bag.

So Mr HTFU church member, why are you hanging around in hisec if you do not like it, get your butt out to 0.0 and prove me wrong, but no you would rather sit there criticizing hisec from hisec, does the word hypocrite mean anything to you?


In terms of hyper-dunking, I think the ability to use this to kill offline POS modules is actually going to be an issue that causes CCP to re-think it, people can now attack offline POS's without requiring a war dec, though in reality its only those that have no issue about -10 who will do it...

I had some fun stopping people from hyperdunking and even got rewarded by one Ark pilot that me and two others managed to save, he also saved himself in the end with an out cyno. It was a bump I did at the end when they were firing on him that mitigated the DPS enough.

How to stop it, well its easy enough, the freighter pilots need to safe log off before they get aggro from that lone noob ship, if that fails they need people to bump them as the short range cats try to gank them and to contest the bumping so they do not get bumped where they can be easily killed, they also need people to surround them in plated BS to act as a shield against bumping, they need people to sit there and jam the DPS and remove them from the equation. It requires people to work together, which is the question and issue, herding cats anyone?

Regarding using hyperdunking to destroy arrays at POSes I presume the towers must be offline ? If they were online the 99% resistances on structure would make it a really tough job.

Regarding hyperdunking as a tactic my personal opinion is that it is being used too much now and CCP should do something about it. But it does seem like they are not going to.

Regarding Sabriz Adoudel stated policies for if/when she joins the CSM I have read some of what she has to say. She has some good ideas on increasing the wardec charges if a large corporation/alliance wishes to attack a small corporation. I would probably go for higher charges though than she has suggested. She also has some good ideas on retention of members in player run corporations with corp members receiving small (One, two, or three percent.) increases to, for example, mining yields if they stay in one player run corporation for say three months or something.

First, I never said someone should be entitled to do it, the original argument was that ganking was 100% avoidable and completely the victims fault. Not that people should be entitled to do whatever they want without risk.

Second, the falcon punch, its not exactly valid in most cases it is quoted. This thread isn't about CCP protecting carebears and their haulers, its about why a mechanic seems fishy. Concord won't let you board one of your own ships in space while criminal, but its suddenly ok to board someone else's ship? In this case they need to get their stories and policies straight.

He is wrong, because in my case I went to NPC 0.0 to belt rat with lower awards than level 4 missions in Osmon because I wanted the fun of hunting and being hunted, my decision to spend more time making ISK in hisec was the lameness of AFK cloaking and the D-scan immunity being an instant I lose button on the ships I was using. Nothing to do with ISK..., it was the fact that it was made too easy for people to hunt which is not the game I thought I was playing.

It is. I agree that the truly risk-averse that are not comfortable losing ships will always live in highsec as they are the most safe there and will never leave regardless of income potential. But for players that are comfortable living in all spaces and who are in need of ISK, why would they not choose to move the space that is the most lucrative relative to the rest?


You seem to be missing the point. Nerfing highsec income is exactly the same from the perspective as buffing the income in other spaces. If you could not touch highsec income while making the other spaces more lucrative (without disrupting the economy) it is exactly the same as nerfing highsec income. Would buffing the other spaces be acceptable to you?

Personally, I think nerfing base L4 incomes probably isn't even necessary if some mechanism was put in place to prevent veterans from just grinding them non-stop for their incomes instead of doing PvE in currently empty risker spaces. That would allow casual and newer players to still benefit from them while limiting their damage to the overall economy. Incursion income though is far too high as CCP has acknowledged - expect that to be nerfed when the sov revamp and/or new Jove space comes online.

Well some of us were around when the true sec hardly mattered and upgrades enabled even bad systems to be usable for ISK generation and everyone wanted a slice of 0.0, then when CCP nerfed it people went back to hisec. What you just said is utter tosh, I saw people leave 0.0 at that time in a large mass. Anybody who saw that happen like I did knows you are wrong because while people could upgrade bad space smaller groups flocked enmasse to null.

Bingo.
Church of HTFU dogma is all about ISK.
I've made the argument that even the PVPers come to highsec and those players are not making ISK. At the same time, nullseccers have highsec incursion alts.
ISK has not been the factor. Game mechanics making "playing the game" more of a headache than entertaining is the factor. People in highsec want to make ISK with "low risk"? Fine maybe they do. But PVPers want to PVP with low risk too, and they are also there for that.
I've watched it do nothing but get worse over the years.

The best indication is this: when the new scanning came about in 2009, the people running lowsec missions or mining started getting slaughtered wholesale because any monkey with probes could scan them out. I remember numerous long threads about it. There was the usual HTFU rhetoric that overlooked that yes, there are ways not to get scanned out in a mission and get ganked, but if you can't even finish said mission it's still a loss. (I recommended that lowsec needed a different mission profile, something more involved with speed that had more challenge but took less time) .

So people stopped taking lowsec missions in most of the cases.

The result of that was a lot of threads from bored campers from lowsec complaining how dead it was (gee guys, you killed everything that moved and "won". Why are you complaining?).

Those threads are gone. The people who made them are gone.

But what's the new common complaint now? Wardec avoidance. And this is an issue strictly for highsec.

Church of HTFU seems to think that the Eve universe was created in 7 days and CCP said "let there be carebears raking in tons of no risk ISK". I'm looking back to 2006 and watching a long slow progression of game denial mechanics that have for the most part driven everybody to highsec And/or ("and" in consideration of nullseccers with highsec mission/incursion alts) nullsec where they can farm deep behind the intel channels and gank pipelines (and then dock up in two seconds if a neutral shows up).

But it's not just the carebears who are driven to highsec. Even the people who used to be "out there" are no longer having a good time (drops, bubbles, etc.)


That's why hyperdunking has become an issue. It went from gate camping to probing, then when people stopped showing up, loot theft and "aggro fu" (which CCP has worked to simplify bringing much wailing and gnashing of the teeth from COHTFU because tripping someone up on technicalities and then destroying them 4 to one at least is "PVP") . Then it became possible to abandon wrecks. So that plus the button was the end of that. Then came bumping and suicide ganking.
And now hyperdunking because every last bit of the mechanics is going to be probed and tested for that one thing that which is deprived by the same mechanics that drove their targets into highsec. People want to get kills, not BLOPS dropped, bubbles camped (or have to take forever to roam to get a fight) or dictor camped for several hours for a shot at putting some green on their board.

Just like the mission runner who won't "chance" it in lowsec, the PVPer don't want to chance it either. Mechanics. All around.

Yes, there was once actually a time when people LEFT highsec to PVP. Be it on roams, to go live out there, to explore, to die in a fire, to get kills, to pirate - whatever. For those of you who cannot believe it, I'll repeat it: There was once a time when people left highsec to PVP. It was not even a question back then. If you said "Yeah I'll get into more PVP" nobody would ask "are you leaving highsec?". They didn't have to.

I kind of imagine that if I took the idea back to 2006 I'd get laughed at and asked "Why?".