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A Message Regarding "Hyperdunking"

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Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#1181 - 2015-02-12 15:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Valterra Craven wrote:
The problem comes in because a lot of these mechanics don't have counters. OR are you suggesting that a game with mechanics that have no counters is balanced? Because from where I sit, a mechanic that has no counter is the very definition of imbalance.
Which mechanics would those be?

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Valterra Craven
#1182 - 2015-02-12 15:36:57 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:

Implying that mechanics that do zero damage to you need a counter.


This is Eve remember. Based on everything said in this thread from pro-gankers, every game mechanic should have a counter.
Valterra Craven
#1183 - 2015-02-12 15:37:49 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Which mechanics would those be?


Well according to Kaarous, webbing a freighter has no counter, remember?
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#1184 - 2015-02-12 15:47:33 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Which mechanics would those be?


Well according to Kaarous, webbing a freighter has no counter, remember?
I seem to remember people saying that it's difficult to counter but not impossible, which is why freighters that use the mechanic don't tend to die. They don't have to be faster than the predator, they just have to be faster than the rest of the prey.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Valterra Craven
#1185 - 2015-02-12 15:54:49 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
I seem to remember people saying that it's difficult to counter but not impossible.


Well you remembered wrong. Which is funny because its not like I had to go all that far back in this thread to find the exact quotes where exactly the opposite of what you remembered was said. If you are going to mis-remember something, at least make sure that its so far back that its going to be extremely difficult for me to find.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Also because being ganked is 100% avoidable.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=400977&p=55 post 1089

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

First of all, if they actually want to gank both of my ships at once while they're on grid together, they have about a six second window to actually do it. After that, the freighter is in the air.

Secondly, it's a freaking Dramiel. I can kite a Catalyst for more than long enough for them to be destroyed by facpo. Hell I can kite ten of them for long enough. A Thrasher will have some trouble as well, since that thing has a sig radius only slightly higher than a drone, and can get some pretty insane speeds with a T2 afterburner.

So please, I would like you to try and explain your ridiculous statements. And hopefully, actually elaborate this perfect gank you keep talking about.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=400977&p=57 post 1140
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#1186 - 2015-02-12 16:00:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Valterra Craven wrote:

Well you remembered wrong. Which is funny because its not like I had to go all that far back in this thread to find the exact quotes where exactly the opposite of what you remembered was said. If you are going to mis-remember something, at least make sure that its so far back that its going to be extremely difficult for me to find.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Also because being ganked is 100% avoidable.
He's not wrong, it is 100% avoidable, as long as you take precautions and use the tools available to you. For instance: how to 100% avoid getting ganked in Uedama, don't fly through Uedama.
Quote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

First of all, if they actually want to gank both of my ships at once while they're on grid together, they have about a six second window to actually do it. After that, the freighter is in the air.

Secondly, it's a freaking Dramiel. I can kite a Catalyst for more than long enough for them to be destroyed by facpo. Hell I can kite ten of them for long enough. A Thrasher will have some trouble as well, since that thing has a sig radius only slightly higher than a drone, and can get some pretty insane speeds with a T2 afterburner.

So please, I would like you to try and explain your ridiculous statements. And hopefully, actually elaborate this perfect gank you keep talking about.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=400977&p=57 post 1140
Nowhere in this post does he state that it's impossible to counter a webbing ship, he implies that it's extremely difficult, they do not mean the same thing.

My memory is fine, your reading comprehension on the other hand, it appears to need some work.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Valterra Craven
#1187 - 2015-02-12 16:14:06 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
He's not wrong, it is 100% avoidable, as long as you take precautions and use the tools available to you. For instance: how to 100% avoid getting ganked in Uedama, don't fly through Uedama.


Same argument applies to not playing the game. Also last I checked not all ganks are limited to Uedama.

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

Nowhere in this post does he state that it's impossible to counter a webbing ship, he implies that it's extremely difficult, they do not mean the same thing.


Actually he implies it with this one line. "So please, I would like you to try and explain your ridiculous statements. And hopefully, actually elaborate this perfect gank you keep talking about."

Because the problem is that this entire statement is predicated on the fact that to have any meaning at all it has to mean that there is no effective counter to his setup. And if there is no effective counter to his setup, then guess what that means! An implication of perfection!

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

your reading comprehension on the other hand, it appears to need some work.


Appearances can be deceiving.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1188 - 2015-02-12 16:20:53 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:

Implying that mechanics that do zero damage to you need a counter.


This is Eve remember. Based on everything said in this thread from pro-gankers, every game mechanic should have a counter.



I don't recall anyone saying such a thing. Even if anyone has, I disagree with that notion.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1189 - 2015-02-12 16:33:29 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:

Implying that mechanics that do zero damage to you need a counter.


This is Eve remember. Based on everything said in this thread from pro-gankers, every game mechanic should have a counter.



I don't recall anyone saying such a thing. Even if anyone has, I disagree with that notion.


Well, everything does have a counter. It's just that a good majority of the counters aren't programmed into the game.
Valterra Craven
#1190 - 2015-02-12 16:47:49 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:


Well, everything does have a counter.


Not according to Kaarous Aldurald.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#1191 - 2015-02-12 17:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Valterra Craven wrote:
Also last I checked not all ganks are limited to Uedama.
The same advice applies to any chokepoint between market hubs, to 100% avoid exploding there, you don't go there or you pay someone else to move your stuff through there.

Quote:
Actually he implies it with this one line. "So please, I would like you to try and explain your ridiculous statements. And hopefully, actually elaborate this perfect gank you keep talking about."
Wat™? That implies nothing of the sort, he's asking for an explanation of something you posted earlier and an elaboration on what you call "a perfect gank".

Quote:
Because the problem is that this entire statement is predicated on the fact that to have any meaning at all it has to mean that there is no effective counter to his setup. And if there is no effective counter to his setup, then guess what that means! An implication of perfection!
You don't half talk some bollocks.

Quote:
Appearances can be deceiving.
Evidently not.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Valterra Craven
#1192 - 2015-02-12 17:27:27 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
The same advice applies to any chokepoint between market hubs, to 100% avoid exploding there, you don't go there or you pay someone else to move your stuff through there.


And the same could be said about not playing the game. Taking his posts out of context to be completely disingenuous is not a valid argument.

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Wat That implies nothing of the sort, he's asking for an explanation of something you posted earlier and an elaboration on what you call "a perfect gank".


Except reading comprehension means being able to understand context. His argument was that his tactics could not be countered. I said that there should be at least one scenario in which they could be. He referred to this as the perfect gank which he implied was not possible.

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
You don't half talk some bollocks.


Well you make up for it for the both of us.

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

Evidently not.


Apparently so.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#1193 - 2015-02-12 17:33:06 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Taking his posts out of context to be completely disingenuous is not a valid argument.
Maybe you should stop doing it then.

Quote:
Except reading comprehension means being able to understand context. His argument was that his tactics could not be countered. I said that there should be at least one scenario in which they could be. He referred to this as the perfect gank which he implied was not possible.
You provided the source, I read it. The context is in other posts which you failed to link, see my comment above.

Oh and you're still wrong.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1194 - 2015-02-12 17:33:46 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:


Well, everything does have a counter.


Not according to Kaarous Aldurald.


The counter to a webbing dramiel is not a gank catalyst or thrasher =/= there is no counter to a webbing dramiel
The ability to counter a webbing dramiel =/= it is possible to gank a frieghter perfectly every time
Valterra Craven
#1195 - 2015-02-12 17:35:13 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Maybe you should stop doing it then.


Maybe you should come up with an actual true counter.

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
You provided the source, I read it. The context is in other posts which you failed to link, see my comment above.


No, I provided SOME sources. The context I'm talking about still applies.

Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:

Oh and you're still wrong.


Then prove it. I'll be here waiting.
Valterra Craven
#1196 - 2015-02-12 17:39:14 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:

The counter to a webbing dramiel is not a gank catalyst or thrasher =/= there is no counter to a webbing dramiel


I agree.

So, if as you say there is a counter to everything, then prove you can counter this tactic.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1197 - 2015-02-12 17:43:57 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:

Implying that mechanics that do zero damage to you need a counter.


This is Eve remember. Based on everything said in this thread from pro-gankers, every game mechanic should have a counter.



I don't recall anyone saying such a thing. Even if anyone has, I disagree with that notion.


Well, everything does have a counter. It's just that a good majority of the counters aren't programmed into the game.

That depends on how you define a counter.

I mean, you could get 100+ people together in order to take down an escorted freighter. It's possible but would it be effective considering the effort put in? I'd say no. That's why I disagree with your statement - it can be done but not to the point we can say the escort has been countered.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1198 - 2015-02-12 17:54:45 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:

The counter to a webbing dramiel is not a gank catalyst or thrasher =/= there is no counter to a webbing dramiel


I agree.

So, if as you say there is a counter to everything, then prove you can counter this tactic.



Off the top of my head, something fast with a sensor boost, sensor damp or ECM, and scram. It would add to the time frame you have to take the freighter down. There would be ways for the drami pilot to mitigate that threat, and there would be ways to counter that counter to the original counter that countered the first counter.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1199 - 2015-02-12 23:14:28 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

The problem comes in because a lot of these mechanics don't have counters.


Except that they do. You lot just reject them because they take more effort than zero. You've demonstrated that quite clearly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1200 - 2015-02-12 23:17:54 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:


Well, everything does have a counter.


Not according to Kaarous Aldurald.


Wow, you're dense. Simply stating that a Dramiel can, in fact, kite a typical gank ship apparently constitutes not having any counter at all.

Color me surprised that you said something that dumb. Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.