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A Message Regarding "Hyperdunking"

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Valterra Craven
#761 - 2015-02-01 22:54:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


Asking for more consequences is not the same as asking for more protection.


Yes it is.


We'll agree to disagree.

baltec1 wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:

Let me put it to you this way: the US made certain drug offenses harsher than others. The net result was not that citizens were more protected from dugs. It just meant that when criminals were caught, they had longer jail terms.


Once again, this is a game.


Once again the example was used to illustrate a point. The fact that the point had to do with a game using a real life example is irrelevant.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#762 - 2015-02-01 22:59:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Valterra Craven wrote:
You mean I don't understand the basic game mechanic that when you shoot something you get a criminal flag for a short duration of time, or that 26-5 = 21 but that the 6 minute gap could mean he didn't have a target to shoot for 6 minutes and therefore could account for the gap without making the first past the post error?
No, it could not mean that, again for game-mechanical reasons. That's why I put that step higher up on the list, and why it's so telling that your internal reasoning wasn't caught at that point. And being able to kill something in the same spot in the same way every 20 minutes is called grinding — it comes with the genre.

Quote:
Well rightly or wrongly the US justice system
…is irrelevant to this discussion.

Quote:
You can not categorically state that no one on these forums hate you.
I can categorically state that “people” don't hate me. I'm sure there are some people who get terribly upset that their fallacies are exposed and their arguments ground to dust, but they are hardly ones to generalise from.

Quote:
Well considering that you agree with the point that gankers can gank in short bursts of time, It would seem that have you failed at your objective to expose those problems.
No, moving the goalposts does not make me fail — quite the opposite. It just makes the initial argument that more fallacious, further demonstrating the ignorance, incompetence, incoherence and mendacity of it all.

Quote:
Course on the flip side asking for more of them won't affect the protection in the slightest either. I'm happy to agree with you on that point.
Nope. I am explaining to you what you just said. No agreement with this obvious nonsense is expressed or implied.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#763 - 2015-02-01 23:22:51 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

You should not need to be worry about having an empty ship blow up at a huge loss in highsec.


The opposite is true. You should always be worried about that.

Especially if you're stupid enough to be afk.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#764 - 2015-02-01 23:26:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
No, what's stupid is "code enforcers" sitting in Uedama and committing the EXACT SAME CRIME over and over again, and yet suffering no penalty beyond loss of gank ship and a 15 minute timeout.
How is that stupid? It's no different than how the game treats miners or mission-runners or traders or… well… everyone really. Why must criminals be treated differently and not be allowed to grind?

Quote:
What's stupid is that said gankers can do so on a disposable gank alt while their nullsec main happily afk rats or afk mines his way to wealth.
No, they really can't. Disposable alts aren't really allowed and are probably one of the biggest myths of EVE. And how is it stupid that you can do earn money on one character and spend it on another?

Quote:
That is a crazy and broken system and screams out for a fix.
What's crazy and broken about it? Why does it need to be fixed?


Criminals are treated differently because they commit crimes. They could have consequence free PvP in nullsec..but they choose to come to highsec, break the law, and should face appropriate sanctions.

Gankers can have a dedicated -10 gank alt, and their main is insulated from their criminal conduct. They don't bear the consequences of their behavior.
Valterra Craven
#765 - 2015-02-01 23:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Tippia wrote:
No, it could not mean that, again for game-mechanical reasons.
It COULD mean that if the game mechanics were different. The point is that based on the data I was looking at, it was not an unreasonable or idiotic mistake to make if the assumption was someone could make criminal kills every 15 minutes. But again that is besides the point.

Tippia wrote:
is irrelevant to this discussion.
Your point that someone must be a subject matter expect on a given topic before they can offer general opinions about how a system should be made to be more balanced is also irrelevant.

Tippia wrote:
I can categorically state that “people” don't hate me.
No you can't. If more than one person hates you (which is entirely plausible) then the plural of person is people and therefore you can't state that you know for a fact that people don't hate you.

Tippia wrote:

No, moving the goalposts does not make me fail — quite the opposite. It just makes the initial argument that more fallacious, further demonstrating the ignorance, incompetence, incoherence and mendacity of it all.


The point of the original argument was that ganks happen in short duration of time in the system for most of the day. You agree that this point is not only possible but that it happens regularly. Therefore, trying to obfuscate the main point by debating minor nuances that have no effect on the general outcome of the main line of thinking means that you are being purposefully argumentative and serve no purpose.

Tippia wrote:
Nope. I am explaining to you what you just said.


No, what you are explaining is one possible outcome of what I was arguing. The expression "throwing the baby out with the bath water" exists for a reason.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#766 - 2015-02-01 23:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Veers Belvar wrote:

Criminals are treated differently because they commit crimes.


Which is presently true. Facpo, Concord and all.



Quote:
They could have consequence free PvP in nullsec


You actually don't know that you still lose sec status outside of highsec? Are you kidding me?




Quote:

Gankers can have a dedicated -10 gank alt, and their main is insulated from their criminal conduct.


Haulers should have to use their main to haul, that way I can track and wardec them. Instead they use an alt, and their main is insulated from my wrath.

Alts exist, dumbass. Deal with it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Valterra Craven
#767 - 2015-02-01 23:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Veers Belvar wrote:
They could have consequence free PvP in nullsec


You actually don't know that you still lose sec status? Are you kidding me?


So Tippia, if your argument is that a person must have a basic understanding of game mechanics to be allowed to comment on game changes, then does it follow that Kaarous should no longer be allowed to make comments on this topic?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#768 - 2015-02-01 23:38:38 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Veers Belvar wrote:
They could have consequence free PvP in nullsec


You actually don't know that you still lose sec status? Are you kidding me?


So Tippia, if your argument is that a person must have a basic understanding of game mechanics to be allowed to comment on game changes, then does it follow that Kaarous should no longer be allowed to make comments on this topic?


Lowsec, bro. Veers has a long standing misconstruance that anything but highsec = nullsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Valterra Craven
#769 - 2015-02-01 23:40:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Lowsec, bro. Veers has a long standing misconstruance that anything but highsec = nullsec.



Given that he explicitly stated nullsec, he was not the one making factual errors.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#770 - 2015-02-01 23:40:51 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Criminals are treated differently because they commit crimes. They could have consequence free PvP in nullsec..but they choose to come to highsec, break the law, and should face appropriate sanctions.
They do. But again, why should criminals be treated differently than anyone else who does the same thing over and over again?

Quote:
Gankers can have a dedicated -10 gank alt, and their main is insulated from their criminal conduct. They don't bear the consequences of their behavior.
Sure they do. It comes inherent with being a criminal and is pretty much unavoidable. Well, aside from the parts that are left to players to effect, but the main reason they don't bear those consequences is because the players in question don't feel the need to inflict them for some reason.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#771 - 2015-02-01 23:42:10 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Lowsec, bro. Veers has a long standing misconstruance that anything but highsec = nullsec.



Given that he explicitly stated nullsec, he was not the one making factual errors.


lol...I was scratching my had and madly googling to see if somehow you lose sec status for pvp in nullsec.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#772 - 2015-02-01 23:42:25 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Lowsec, bro. Veers has a long standing misconstruance that anything but highsec = nullsec.



Given that he explicitly stated nullsec, he was not the one making factual errors.


Living in nullsec means that you never set foot in low? Since when?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#773 - 2015-02-01 23:46:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Valterra Craven wrote:
It COULD mean that if the game mechanics were different. The point is that based on the data I was looking at, it was not an unreasonable or idiotic mistake to make if the assumption was someone could make criminal kills every 15 minutes. But again that is besides the point.
…but the game mechanics aren't different, so no, it could not mean that. Based on the data you were looking at, it was entirely unreasonable and idiotic to assume that you can kill that often because the data does not show it. It was based purely on assumption, not supported by the data, contradicted by actual mechanics, and in conflict with common sense. The point remains the same: one side of this argument will go so far as to invent evidence to cover up the very obvious fact that they have no idea what they're talking about and that their arguments are completely nonsensical from top to bottom.

Quote:
No you can't.
Yes I can, especially categorically. You see, I know of quite a few ardent supporters, which means that the category “people” is, at worst, divided on the topic. It's certainly not one that hates me.

Quote:
The point of the original argument was that ganks happen in short duration of time in the system for most of the day.
The point of the original argument was a lie. I exposed it as such. Moving the goal posts to state that it now meant something else is a fallacy and just further proves the ignorance behind it.

Quote:
You agree that this point is not only possible but that it happens regularly.
Nope and nope, in roughly that order.

Quote:
No, what you are explaining is one possible outcome of what I was arguing.
No. I'm explaining to you what you said. If you don't like the conclusion of your logic, then perhaps you should perhaps withdraw that logic as part of your argument. What you shouldn't do is assume that others agree with such a silly idea just because you didn't think it through.
Valterra Craven
#774 - 2015-02-01 23:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Living in nullsec means that you never set foot in low? Since when?


Somehow having to traverse low sec to get to null sec (though I think it would be possible to get to null from hi through wormholes, but I'm not sure about that) means that you also have to start fights in low sec to get there? I lived in delve for the better part of a year. Yet I never once lost sec status in low sec. It wasn't because I was avoiding low sec at all costs...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#775 - 2015-02-01 23:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Valterra Craven wrote:
Yet I never once lost sec status in low sec.


Did you shoot anybody?

Also, there you go, I went and edited it.

"outside of highsec", the context we were talking about in the first place. Hopefully you're done being obtuse/pedantic now.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#776 - 2015-02-01 23:48:04 UTC
Actually gankers could kill more frequently than every 15 minutes by using chains of alts....they could even gank continuously.....
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#777 - 2015-02-01 23:51:31 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
So Tippia, if your argument is that a person must have a basic understanding of game mechanics to be allowed to comment on game changes
It's not.
David Mandrake
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#778 - 2015-02-01 23:53:16 UTC  |  Edited by: David Mandrake
Veers Belvar wrote:

Criminals are treated differently because they commit crimes. They could have consequence free PvP in nullsec..but they choose to come to highsec, break the law, and should face appropriate sanctions.


Nullsec PvP is hardly consequence free, it's just that many of the consequences are brought on by the players themselves utilizing the various mechanics in-game. This is probably part of the reason that many who live in Nullsec question why you need additional mechanics to defend yourself, when the mechanics exist to create further consequences for Criminals in Highsec - they're just not utilized.

In fact Nullsec PvP can come with rather dire consequences, given that losing a fight can leave you locked out of your assets and kicked out of your home. It's not possible to do that elsewhere, save for W-space (even in lowsec faction war, you can hire a hauler to move stuff out of a conqured system; this is just not possible in Null)
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#779 - 2015-02-01 23:56:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You actually don't know that you still lose sec status outside of highsec? Are you kidding me?

In LoSec, yes. But I don't think there's any kind of criminal/suspect flag activity in null/WH space. At least, I don't recall ever getting crim flagged for shooting neutrals.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#780 - 2015-02-01 23:59:05 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You actually don't know that you still lose sec status outside of highsec? Are you kidding me?

In LoSec, yes. But I don't think there's any kind of criminal/suspect flag activity in null/WH space. At least, I don't recall ever getting crim flagged for shooting neutrals.


True, but lowsec combat happens frequently enough that many, many nullsec bloc members are neg tens.

It was especially funny when they had the Caldari Capital ship event last year, with PL in particular flying through highsec like crazy. Local exploded because some people had never seen that many flashies before.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.