Warfare & Tactics

Edit - the BR I'm using is the one provided by Andre Vauban in the comments here: http://www.factionwarfare.com/the-battle-for-hasmijaala-rages-on/#comment-781. It seems to be the same as the one you link.

First step is to correct the report by removing RAZOR, Doomguards, State War Academy and UCF from the Caldari column and Vikings of Valhalla from the Gallente column.

Next step is to ignore the inaccurate headline figures and look in the class summary. There we see that Gallente losses were 27.25 bil to Caldari losses of 34.66, which amounts to roughly 44% of the losses on the Gallente side and 56% on the Caldari side. So, yes, you can (cherry-) pick out individual ship classes and talk about the number of ships if you like, but that ignores the value of the ships and their comparative power. While that level of efficiency shows a definite qualitative advantage, it is a small one and hardly sufficient to make up for the loss of the strategic objective.



The numbers were pretty much perfectly even once the BR is corrected: 423 vs 437

The trick is to remember that, win or lose, you're in it for the pvp. Front lines are fun, and everybody knows where to go to get fights. That's all that matters.

Real dplexers don't use stabs. Those cost ISK. Why bother fitting a ship of it is dplexing?

Frankly, I don't encounter stabbed dplexers often. Usually just Gallente either looking for a fight or looking for LP. Either way I try and chase them out of their plex and run their timer. Spite is a powerful motivational tool, and then they know where to find me if they want to be shot at.

It helps to remember that the main issue is the weblink the page provides struggles to update after you fiddle with the teams. The corrections you helpfully suggested had already been done with the page I pulled those stats from. But thank you for the presumptions.

The final numbers once you thoroughly check every entity and put them on the right team is 449 calmill v 423 galmill. 27.2b v 37.1b, and if we're analysing plex warfare, the largest contributor to our losses was an out of plex warfare capital derp to mixed squid/snuff by a gall corp not pushing Hasmij, but feel free to keep those in there when judging the efficiency of your plexing doctrines :)

^ Thats why its interesting to ignore some of the headline numbers (even though the headlines imply an extremely rough time for the defenders.)

Cruisers tend to fight cruisers, sniper corms tend to fight sniper corms, as such these stats can be very illuminating. Its not 'cherry picking', feel free to scour the pages and show me the ship class that Calmill dominated in, either in raw number of ships killed or isk lost, you can have your pick of metric. I mean 400 corms lost to kill 200 might be okay if you're flying derp corms, but then you see that you lost 4b in corms versus our 1.93b, thats pretty astounding given the stand and deliver tit for tat trading style of combat corm v corm leads to. In the end though, if you want to see the stats as a positive, I should really get out of the way and let you continue doing that

The percentage difference may be 'smaller,' but the absolute numbers are also higher, for instance it may be cold comfort to JF pilots that the percentage difference was so "small" when it reality it results in them having to bring in a thousand more ships than the Gallente to remain competitive.

In terms of was it worth the "loss" of a strategic objective. Well first off, you are on defense, so us not taking your home is not a 'loss' for us aside from the material losses in ships. Secondly, but perhaps more importantly, is that I hope you know what our objective was before trying to determine if we failed to achieve it

Perhaps the objective for corps/alliances that live nowhere near Hasmijala (cause you know, ass end of the map and all that,) and have no interaction with Templis day to day, was to kick Templis out of the WZ. It could also be the case that at a time where the farmers (Amarr) were on your side and our systems being plexed heavily, we decided to attack a Calmill center of gravity in the hopes of concentrating their forces (say 37b worth?) and obliterating them. This could leave Calmill unable to strike a Gall home system during their time with the pendulum and leaving them in a poor state to deploy quickly to somewhere say Kinakka.

Seeing as I won't repost alliance forums for you, you may just have to be stuck with never knowing

You've got it slightly backwards here. My point was that no-one in the Caldari Militia felt the need to post a brag thread about holding Hasmijala, to which Yuri replied that this was because CalMil sucks and got slaughtered in Hasmijala. My post was meant to refute that claim, not to crow (I have the utmost respect for the Gallente militia). By contrast, this thread is clearly meant to crow about something far less significant - taking an unoccupied system.



In terms of numbers, you are right that more Caldari ships died than Gallente but we also know that isk value is a far better way of seeing how the various sides were doing (losing one Garmur to two atrons in obviously not a win). And when we look at that the picture is rather different. At the frigate level losses were almost exactly equal at just over 6bil each. At the dessie/AF level there is a narrow gap in your favour (4.7bil vs 5.8bil). It's only really at the cruiser level that you were as dominant as you imply (3.3bil vs 5bil).




I'd like to think that our opponents have more brains than this. There was no 'being in a poor state to deploy quickly to ... Kinakka'. There was just no-one actively living in that system so you were never going to get the kind of fight you would over somewhere significant.

Sooo... what you're saying is that terms of both numbers and ISK GalMil came out ahead. Vesk's statement is accurate. Moving on...

Depends on what you mean by "strategic failure", doesn't it?

Taking Hasmijaala had a potentially huge payoff for our side because it would have demoralized your side yet again.
Not taking Hasmijaala had a potentially huge payoff for your side because it would build tons of momentum for your side.
(the pew was great while it lasted...)


Neither happened. We got some great fights that weekend in Innia, and then not much after that. Now the Occupancy War is quieting down, and the plexing pendulum seems to be slowly moving our way again.

All the speculation, probably on both sides, about what was going to happen after we failed in Hasmijaala was pretty much wrong (as it always is).

They are like mosquitoes, no matter how many you squish they just keep coming.

While there haven't been any big fights since then, the volume of solo and small gang opportunities in west Black Rise is great at the moment.

truth is both militias suck, the quality and intensity of PVP has been abismal for 6 months now...