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The problem with "Project Legion"
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Sayod Physulem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-01-25 11:36:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sayod Physulem
Eileen Black wrote:
1. put TL;DR into the original first post.

Done

Eileen Black wrote:
attacker drops a consciousness transfer beacon thing, and I would want to jump(as a capsuleer) into it as a FPS soldier


I think that's exactly the problem: If you design the game that way that it is only a nice sideline for an EVE player - then only EVE players will play Dust. This would limit the number of Dust players.
So you kind of need to seperate the game if you want a larger player base than only the FPS interested EVE players.

Eileen Black wrote:
Fighting for PI - bleh - these things are cheap.

Well you can make them more expensive.

Eileen Black wrote:
3. If you had an option of relying on FPS to "unlock" certain parts of the game it would be great. Like - getting info out of the sleeper wrecks, stuff like that.


Again then it would be only a sideline for EVE players, greatly limiting the amount of players. Because to play Dust you would be required to play EVE too.

And as I said, EVE is more a niche if you want the player base of an average fps for Dust you need to design it that the EVE elements don't annoy these kind of players.
Sayod Physulem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-01-25 11:42:08 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
lol so from what i could gather from that wall of text b4 the headache set in he basically proposed what CCP promised when they announced dust


Yeah, that's what I got out of it.

Quality posting from yet another misinformed EVE Uni pilot. Roll


Of course that's what CCP promised. But did it work? I tried to point out why it didn't and how it could.
And if you think I am misinformed - please help me and point out where I am wrong. Thanks.
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-02-04 20:11:12 UTC
Speaking as a Dust 514 player since June, 2012...

TL;DR - CCP Shanghai has no intentions of receiving feedback for Project Legion. CCP Iceland likes to pretend that neither Project Legion or Dust 514 even exists. What gives you the impression that there should be a connection between Eve and either game if they aren't even receptive toward the community informing them they'e making the same mistakes..?

What gives you the impression Project Legion will ever be ready to have an Eve connection when they're still having difficulties giving player's a reason to even play Dust 514..? You log in, shoot some stuff, get a few skill-points, end of story. There's no 'sandbox' and I think building a connection on the lack there of is entirely fool hardy; a waste of money.

Let's be real, it's been six months since we last heard anything about Project Legion because they're doing their tight-lipped thing where they won't even discuss what game mechanics they're working on. They don't want feedback, despite consistently telling the press that they do, because if they did they'd -ask us- for our input on it so they don't make the same mistakes with Dust 514. They would show us some tidbits of what they're working on, but they haven't done that since August 2014 when they unanimously went into silence. In fact, it's been confirmed that there aren't going to be any presentations on either Dust 514 or Project Legion at fan-fest this year.

Project Legion, as far as anyone is concerned at this point, is just vapor ware. Dust 514 is being milked to death by EA-style monetization (see gear BPO's with absolutely no material/isk cost, Boosters, Warbarges, Instant SP boosts, Skill resets, increased sell prices from a pay-for market agent, etc) that completely betrays any "New Eden" atmosphere they were going for in the first place. Balance has been getting better but in the sense that now everything kills as fast as anything else. There's no tactical aspect to it anymore, it's just zerging twitch shooter insta-pop.

Project Legion is going to need a hell of a lot more than just a connection with Eve Online for it to be worth-while. No-one is going to bother if it just follows in the footsteps of Dust 514 and as previously stated, there is no intention of getting feedback from either player-base as to how to go about that. Any comments on Dust 514/Project Legion on the Eve Forums will be promptly moved to the Dust 514 Information sub-forum where no devs frequent and it's the same with the Dust 514 forums (only in that case going to the Project Legion sub-forum to rot away with no dev interaction).

Dust 514 and Project Legion are the red-headed step child that is locked in the closet being fed scraps because they don't have the willpower to just cut their losses.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#24 - 2015-02-04 20:14:42 UTC
This is the very definition of "Wall of Text"
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-02-04 21:29:01 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Speaking as a Dust 514 player since June, 2012...

TL;DR - CCP Shanghai has no intentions of receiving feedback for Project Legion. CCP Iceland likes to pretend that neither Project Legion or Dust 514 even exists. What gives you the impression that there should be a connection between Eve and either game if they aren't even receptive toward the community informing them they'e making the same mistakes..?

What gives you the impression Project Legion will ever be ready to have an Eve connection when they're still having difficulties giving player's a reason to even play Dust 514..? You log in, shoot some stuff, get a few skill-points, end of story. There's no 'sandbox' and I think building a connection on the lack there of is entirely fool hardy; a waste of money.

Let's be real, it's been six months since we last heard anything about Project Legion because they're doing their tight-lipped thing where they won't even discuss what game mechanics they're working on. They don't want feedback, despite consistently telling the press that they do, because if they did they'd -ask us- for our input on it so they don't make the same mistakes with Dust 514. They would show us some tidbits of what they're working on, but they haven't done that since August 2014 when they unanimously went into silence. In fact, it's been confirmed that there aren't going to be any presentations on either Dust 514 or Project Legion at fan-fest this year.

Project Legion, as far as anyone is concerned at this point, is just vapor ware. Dust 514 is being milked to death by EA-style monetization (see gear BPO's with absolutely no material/isk cost, Boosters, Warbarges, Instant SP boosts, Skill resets, increased sell prices from a pay-for market agent, etc) that completely betrays any "New Eden" atmosphere they were going for in the first place. Balance has been getting better but in the sense that now everything kills as fast as anything else. There's no tactical aspect to it anymore, it's just zerging twitch shooter insta-pop.

Project Legion is going to need a hell of a lot more than just a connection with Eve Online for it to be worth-while. No-one is going to bother if it just follows in the footsteps of Dust 514 and as previously stated, there is no intention of getting feedback from either player-base as to how to go about that. Any comments on Dust 514/Project Legion on the Eve Forums will be promptly moved to the Dust 514 Information sub-forum where no devs frequent and it's the same with the Dust 514 forums (only in that case going to the Project Legion sub-forum to rot away with no dev interaction).

Dust 514 and Project Legion are the red-headed step child that is locked in the closet being fed scraps because they don't have the willpower to just cut their losses.

frankly its the fact that the FPS part is outsourced AT all that guarantees a community dosconnection and an overall lack of possible integration.

if they want to realistically and at all meaningfully have the games connected, then the DUST/Legion team needs to be EXCLUSIVELY down the hall from the EVE team, because nothing good has EVER come from outsourcing a game to another company and then expecting it to even remotely have relation to the original, especially when its outsourced to the People's Republic of EA
Helios Panala
#26 - 2015-02-04 23:40:35 UTC
Legion... Legion could be so amazing. The massive potential is what makes me so worried for it.

It can't be that hard to get right though, come on CCP Shanghai!
Just have high-sec for casual lobby matches and various leagues, low-sec for day-z style exploring and scavenging, null-sec for a Planetside 2 style experience that actually matters and faction warfare for that nullsec-lite experience.
Let Legion players fly shuttles, warbarges and mobile command centres through new eden, add in an Interbus shipping service for casual Legionnaires to get their stuff moved through high/low-sec space, bake for however long it takes for it to not be utter crap and release.


Please don't just make Dust:514 for PC...
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-02-05 21:29:49 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Nomistrav wrote:
Speaking as a Dust 514 player since June, 2012...

TL;DR - CCP Shanghai has no intentions of receiving feedback for Project Legion. CCP Iceland likes to pretend that neither Project Legion or Dust 514 even exists. What gives you the impression that there should be a connection between Eve and either game if they aren't even receptive toward the community informing them they'e making the same mistakes..?

What gives you the impression Project Legion will ever be ready to have an Eve connection when they're still having difficulties giving player's a reason to even play Dust 514..? You log in, shoot some stuff, get a few skill-points, end of story. There's no 'sandbox' and I think building a connection on the lack there of is entirely fool hardy; a waste of money.

Let's be real, it's been six months since we last heard anything about Project Legion because they're doing their tight-lipped thing where they won't even discuss what game mechanics they're working on. They don't want feedback, despite consistently telling the press that they do, because if they did they'd -ask us- for our input on it so they don't make the same mistakes with Dust 514. They would show us some tidbits of what they're working on, but they haven't done that since August 2014 when they unanimously went into silence. In fact, it's been confirmed that there aren't going to be any presentations on either Dust 514 or Project Legion at fan-fest this year.

Project Legion, as far as anyone is concerned at this point, is just vapor ware. Dust 514 is being milked to death by EA-style monetization (see gear BPO's with absolutely no material/isk cost, Boosters, Warbarges, Instant SP boosts, Skill resets, increased sell prices from a pay-for market agent, etc) that completely betrays any "New Eden" atmosphere they were going for in the first place. Balance has been getting better but in the sense that now everything kills as fast as anything else. There's no tactical aspect to it anymore, it's just zerging twitch shooter insta-pop.

Project Legion is going to need a hell of a lot more than just a connection with Eve Online for it to be worth-while. No-one is going to bother if it just follows in the footsteps of Dust 514 and as previously stated, there is no intention of getting feedback from either player-base as to how to go about that. Any comments on Dust 514/Project Legion on the Eve Forums will be promptly moved to the Dust 514 Information sub-forum where no devs frequent and it's the same with the Dust 514 forums (only in that case going to the Project Legion sub-forum to rot away with no dev interaction).

Dust 514 and Project Legion are the red-headed step child that is locked in the closet being fed scraps because they don't have the willpower to just cut their losses.

frankly its the fact that the FPS part is outsourced AT all that guarantees a community dosconnection and an overall lack of possible integration.

if they want to realistically and at all meaningfully have the games connected, then the DUST/Legion team needs to be EXCLUSIVELY down the hall from the EVE team, because nothing good has EVER come from outsourcing a game to another company and then expecting it to even remotely have relation to the original, especially when its outsourced to the People's Republic of EA


It's still a CCP Game. It's just not CCP Iceland. Much in the same way that Valkyrie is made by a largely separate development team, Dust 514 and Project Legion are made by CCP Shanghai. Sure, they have developers from other companies (CCP Rouge, the senior producer, came from EA; as did CCP Z) but you have to get your experience from somewhere. In this case, CCP Shanghai is made up of developers who came from other FPS and MMO titles.

Expecting CCP Iceland to work on both Eve Online as well as a FPS, despite having no experience in the latter, is asking for trouble. We'd get all of the things that make Eve Online but the FPS mechanics would likely be lacking, at best.

Now, if you're referring to why they have a development studio in Shanghai working on it as opposed to Iceland... Well, I'll just tuck away the "racist" card for now, even though it'd be funny as hell Lol

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2015-02-05 22:44:12 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Nomistrav wrote:
Speaking as a Dust 514 player since June, 2012...

TL;DR - CCP Shanghai has no intentions of receiving feedback for Project Legion. CCP Iceland likes to pretend that neither Project Legion or Dust 514 even exists. What gives you the impression that there should be a connection between Eve and either game if they aren't even receptive toward the community informing them they'e making the same mistakes..?

What gives you the impression Project Legion will ever be ready to have an Eve connection when they're still having difficulties giving player's a reason to even play Dust 514..? You log in, shoot some stuff, get a few skill-points, end of story. There's no 'sandbox' and I think building a connection on the lack there of is entirely fool hardy; a waste of money.

Let's be real, it's been six months since we last heard anything about Project Legion because they're doing their tight-lipped thing where they won't even discuss what game mechanics they're working on. They don't want feedback, despite consistently telling the press that they do, because if they did they'd -ask us- for our input on it so they don't make the same mistakes with Dust 514. They would show us some tidbits of what they're working on, but they haven't done that since August 2014 when they unanimously went into silence. In fact, it's been confirmed that there aren't going to be any presentations on either Dust 514 or Project Legion at fan-fest this year.

Project Legion, as far as anyone is concerned at this point, is just vapor ware. Dust 514 is being milked to death by EA-style monetization (see gear BPO's with absolutely no material/isk cost, Boosters, Warbarges, Instant SP boosts, Skill resets, increased sell prices from a pay-for market agent, etc) that completely betrays any "New Eden" atmosphere they were going for in the first place. Balance has been getting better but in the sense that now everything kills as fast as anything else. There's no tactical aspect to it anymore, it's just zerging twitch shooter insta-pop.

Project Legion is going to need a hell of a lot more than just a connection with Eve Online for it to be worth-while. No-one is going to bother if it just follows in the footsteps of Dust 514 and as previously stated, there is no intention of getting feedback from either player-base as to how to go about that. Any comments on Dust 514/Project Legion on the Eve Forums will be promptly moved to the Dust 514 Information sub-forum where no devs frequent and it's the same with the Dust 514 forums (only in that case going to the Project Legion sub-forum to rot away with no dev interaction).

Dust 514 and Project Legion are the red-headed step child that is locked in the closet being fed scraps because they don't have the willpower to just cut their losses.

frankly its the fact that the FPS part is outsourced AT all that guarantees a community dosconnection and an overall lack of possible integration.

if they want to realistically and at all meaningfully have the games connected, then the DUST/Legion team needs to be EXCLUSIVELY down the hall from the EVE team, because nothing good has EVER come from outsourcing a game to another company and then expecting it to even remotely have relation to the original, especially when its outsourced to the People's Republic of EA


It's still a CCP Game. It's just not CCP Iceland. Much in the same way that Valkyrie is made by a largely separate development team, Dust 514 and Project Legion are made by CCP Shanghai. Sure, they have developers from other companies (CCP Rouge, the senior producer, came from EA; as did CCP Z) but you have to get your experience from somewhere. In this case, CCP Shanghai is made up of developers who came from other FPS and MMO titles.

Expecting CCP Iceland to work on both Eve Online as well as a FPS, despite having no experience in the latter, is asking for trouble. We'd get all of the things that make Eve Online but the FPS mechanics would likely be lacking, at best.

Now, if you're referring to why they have a development studio in Shanghai working on it as opposed to Iceland... Well, I'll just tuck away the "racist" card for now, even though it'd be funny as hell Lol

thats the thing, im not saying the EVE devs should be moved to legion/dust, just saying havign the office thats physically so far away be the exclusive designers of DUST/Legion is asking for a development disconenct between the branches that can ONLY end in the game never being in a state where even the slightest integration is possible or a good experience

the best cooperative development happens when both groups have to sit at the same lunch table, simple as that. And im not talking with no experience. Back when I took engineering classes we had an entire semester dedicated to showing development disconnect, and how relying on people you cannot physically interact with daily is VASTLY inferior in the end-product than a group you can see and talk to everyday, because when they are elsewhere, not only is communication delayed, but ideas and meaning can be muddled aswell, because your not sitting there live discussing things with them.

as much as some people think it isnt a big deal, it is. as it is CCP Shanghai and Iceland can only communicate about business related issues and communicate while they are at work (near opposite times of day due to timezones), so there is never a consistent period of shanghai and iceland devs getting together drunk and doing a "wouldnt it be cool if" or "what if we did this" scenario (which, I might add, is likely how the concept of EVE came about to BEGIN with)
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#29 - 2015-02-05 23:21:40 UTC
I want my pilot in Eve to be able to fight on the ground with assets I purchase from my Eve career. And vice versa; anything less is a fail, and will fail...
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-02-06 05:56:48 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Nomistrav wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Nomistrav wrote:
Speaking as a Dust 514 player since June, 2012...

TL;DR - CCP Shanghai has no intentions of receiving feedback for Project Legion. CCP Iceland likes to pretend that neither Project Legion or Dust 514 even exists. What gives you the impression that there should be a connection between Eve and either game if they aren't even receptive toward the community informing them they'e making the same mistakes..?

What gives you the impression Project Legion will ever be ready to have an Eve connection when they're still having difficulties giving player's a reason to even play Dust 514..? You log in, shoot some stuff, get a few skill-points, end of story. There's no 'sandbox' and I think building a connection on the lack there of is entirely fool hardy; a waste of money.

Let's be real, it's been six months since we last heard anything about Project Legion because they're doing their tight-lipped thing where they won't even discuss what game mechanics they're working on. They don't want feedback, despite consistently telling the press that they do, because if they did they'd -ask us- for our input on it so they don't make the same mistakes with Dust 514. They would show us some tidbits of what they're working on, but they haven't done that since August 2014 when they unanimously went into silence. In fact, it's been confirmed that there aren't going to be any presentations on either Dust 514 or Project Legion at fan-fest this year.

Project Legion, as far as anyone is concerned at this point, is just vapor ware. Dust 514 is being milked to death by EA-style monetization (see gear BPO's with absolutely no material/isk cost, Boosters, Warbarges, Instant SP boosts, Skill resets, increased sell prices from a pay-for market agent, etc) that completely betrays any "New Eden" atmosphere they were going for in the first place. Balance has been getting better but in the sense that now everything kills as fast as anything else. There's no tactical aspect to it anymore, it's just zerging twitch shooter insta-pop.

Project Legion is going to need a hell of a lot more than just a connection with Eve Online for it to be worth-while. No-one is going to bother if it just follows in the footsteps of Dust 514 and as previously stated, there is no intention of getting feedback from either player-base as to how to go about that. Any comments on Dust 514/Project Legion on the Eve Forums will be promptly moved to the Dust 514 Information sub-forum where no devs frequent and it's the same with the Dust 514 forums (only in that case going to the Project Legion sub-forum to rot away with no dev interaction).

Dust 514 and Project Legion are the red-headed step child that is locked in the closet being fed scraps because they don't have the willpower to just cut their losses.

frankly its the fact that the FPS part is outsourced AT all that guarantees a community dosconnection and an overall lack of possible integration.

if they want to realistically and at all meaningfully have the games connected, then the DUST/Legion team needs to be EXCLUSIVELY down the hall from the EVE team, because nothing good has EVER come from outsourcing a game to another company and then expecting it to even remotely have relation to the original, especially when its outsourced to the People's Republic of EA


It's still a CCP Game. It's just not CCP Iceland. Much in the same way that Valkyrie is made by a largely separate development team, Dust 514 and Project Legion are made by CCP Shanghai. Sure, they have developers from other companies (CCP Rouge, the senior producer, came from EA; as did CCP Z) but you have to get your experience from somewhere. In this case, CCP Shanghai is made up of developers who came from other FPS and MMO titles.

Expecting CCP Iceland to work on both Eve Online as well as a FPS, despite having no experience in the latter, is asking for trouble. We'd get all of the things that make Eve Online but the FPS mechanics would likely be lacking, at best.

Now, if you're referring to why they have a development studio in Shanghai working on it as opposed to Iceland... Well, I'll just tuck away the "racist" card for now, even though it'd be funny as hell Lol

thats the thing, im not saying the EVE devs should be moved to legion/dust, just saying havign the office thats physically so far away be the exclusive designers of DUST/Legion is asking for a development disconenct between the branches that can ONLY end in the game never being in a state where even the slightest integration is possible or a good experience

the best cooperative development happens when both groups have to sit at the same lunch table, simple as that. And im not talking with no experience. Back when I took engineering classes we had an entire semester dedicated to showing development disconnect, and how relying on people you cannot physically interact with daily is VASTLY inferior in the end-product than a group you can see and talk to everyday, because when they are elsewhere, not only is communication delayed, but ideas and meaning can be muddled aswell, because your not sitting there live discussing things with them.

as much as some people think it isnt a big deal, it is. as it is CCP Shanghai and Iceland can only communicate about business related issues and communicate while they are at work (near opposite times of day due to timezones), so there is never a consistent period of shanghai and iceland devs getting together drunk and doing a "wouldnt it be cool if" or "what if we did this" scenario (which, I might add, is likely how the concept of EVE came about to BEGIN with)


Ah, I see where you're coming from now. You bring up some good, solid points.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
#31 - 2015-02-06 07:58:08 UTC
I can see DUST/Valkyrie/Legion/whatever getting rolled together. But any integration between that and EVE would just feel too forced.

Perhaps the resultant DUST/Valkyrie/Legion conglomeration should be set in a region of space on the other side of the Eve Gate wormhole. Because they never suffered the catastrophe of the Eve Gate collapse they were never forced to develop capsuleer technology.
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