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should CCP get rid of the PLEX system?

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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#61 - 2015-01-27 04:00:00 UTC
Thebriwan wrote:
OP you seem to have the illusion that multiple accounts only exists because of PLEX .
You are wrong.

Multi-account-users existed way before that.

PLEX do two important things: they give the possibility to pay for more accounts for ISK AND to get ISK for real money.

Your proposition cuts one of this two thing out. And this would be bad.

And you overseeing the fact that there are players that are using PLEX for their only account.




confirmed, started in 2005, alts existed then.....you know before plex existed

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#62 - 2015-01-27 04:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Raiz Nhell wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
I never said the sink could eat JP Morgan. But a sink is a sink is a sink, don't turn it into a fountain.



How many times does it need to be said. The transaction of Plex never eliminates isk from the game... ever

so while a sink is a sink, there is no sink here... just someone who really doesn't understand.



Do PLEX transactions get taxed? Yes
Is the Transaction tax an isk sink (Takes isk out of the game)? Yes

For example
10% Tax

Me: Plex
You: 1bill isk
Market Magic!
Me: 990mil
You: Plex

Holy Dominix Poo!! Where did that ISK go?!?!?
Into a sink dear fellow.

It appears that someone doesn't understand.




Ok genius... you know market tax isn't 10% right? and if it was... Maths is hard.

But anyways, no one is paying full tax price... well maybe you are. ALL TRANSACTIONS ARE TAXED, that isn't a plex specific sink.

And again, to reverse this... turn it into a fountain you say? If I sell you a plex for isk, the isk isn't created... if I sell you a plex for AUR, the AUR isn't created either lol

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Sugar Smacks
Khanid Royal Navy
Khanid.
#63 - 2015-01-27 04:59:05 UTC
If you mean to remove it and make Aurum the only currency, where we can trade aurum for gametime, then maybe.

If you mean to remove it and not be able to basically turn isk into gametime, then no, your crazy.

I could see there being just 2 currencys isk/aurum but theres really no advantage to do this.
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2015-01-28 17:56:37 UTC
Umm.... Plex is a sink.....

ISK is generated in game constantly
People use REAL MONEY to buy a PLEX
People trade Plex for ISK
people use ISK to buy services with REAL MONEY value, ie account sub / dual training
That ISK is removed from game.

The ISK is not just moved around, it disappears because PLEX was used as REAL MONEY out side of game to provide dual training or alt accounts. Not all PLEX end up sunk as ISK, buying ships and modules is not a sink, but buying game time and dual training are.

Quote:
An "ISK Sink" refers to any mechanic where ISK leaving a players wallet is not going into another players wallet, i.e. the ISK is being absorbed or destroyed by a NPC entity.


The arum thing is the CCP Incarna clusterfrack writ large, a sneeky way for micro transaction introduction buffered from the game environment.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2015-01-28 18:03:04 UTC
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Umm.... Plex is a sink.....

ISK is generated in game constantly
People use REAL MONEY to buy a PLEX
People trade Plex for ISK
people use ISK to buy services with REAL MONEY value, ie account sub / dual training
That ISK is removed from game.

The ISK is not just moved around, it disappears because PLEX was used as REAL MONEY out side of game to provide dual training or alt accounts. Not all PLEX end up sunk as ISK, buying ships and modules is not a sink, but buying game time and dual training are.

Quote:
An "ISK Sink" refers to any mechanic where ISK leaving a players wallet is not going into another players wallet, i.e. the ISK is being absorbed or destroyed by a NPC entity.


The arum thing is the CCP Incarna clusterfrack writ large, a sneeky way for micro transaction introduction buffered from the game environment.


Only the transaction tax is a sink (and a rather small one at that) because all PLEX on the market are listed by players. The ISK never get deleted because it goes to the other player's wallet. The PLEX is getting "destroyed" by purchasing game time/dual training but the ISK is still in the seller's wallet so it was never "sunk".
Solops Crendraven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-01-28 18:10:41 UTC
I dont mind Plex For $20 However I should be geting 2 billion isk not this not 600 million 1 day and 800million another day the price should be the same thats why they need to get rid of this player economics dosnt make sense instead have a CCP Store where you Buy everything like any normal MMO .

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#67 - 2015-01-28 18:17:51 UTC
Solops Crendraven wrote:
I dont mind Plex For $20 However I should be geting 2 billion isk not this not 600 million 1 day and 800million another day the price should be the same thats why they need to get rid of this player economics dosnt make sense instead have a CCP Store where you Buy everything like any normal MMO .



I mind that there is a direct way to lose real life money by the actions of others in the game, be it gank, scam or market manipulation.

All other items in game are filtered through in game isk, so there is a slight disconnect. But Plex is bought straight up and can be lost without in game isk ever being part of the equation.

For that reason alone I would love to see it moved off market and into the NES only. There should never be a way for a player in the game to virtually put their hand in my wallet.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2015-01-28 18:20:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Umm.... Plex is a sink.....

ISK is generated in game constantly
People use REAL MONEY to buy a PLEX
People trade Plex for ISK
people use ISK to buy services with REAL MONEY value, ie account sub / dual training
That ISK is removed from game.

The ISK is not just moved around, it disappears because PLEX was used as REAL MONEY out side of game to provide dual training or alt accounts. Not all PLEX end up sunk as ISK, buying ships and modules is not a sink, but buying game time and dual training are.

Quote:
An "ISK Sink" refers to any mechanic where ISK leaving a players wallet is not going into another players wallet, i.e. the ISK is being absorbed or destroyed by a NPC entity.


The arum thing is the CCP Incarna clusterfrack writ large, a sneeky way for micro transaction introduction buffered from the game environment.


Only the transaction tax is a sink (and a rather small one at that) because all PLEX on the market are listed by players. The ISK never get deleted because it goes to the other player's wallet. The PLEX is getting "destroyed" by purchasing game time/dual training but the ISK is still in the seller's wallet so it was never "sunk".


you`re right, the ISK still exists its just like buying a module for real cash on e-bay and selling it in game for ISK.

But whether its a sink or not is irrelevant, its role is to kill real money trading for ISK/items, it was not designed to act as any thing else when all is said and done.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2015-01-28 18:27:13 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Solops Crendraven wrote:
I dont mind Plex For $20 However I should be geting 2 billion isk not this not 600 million 1 day and 800million another day the price should be the same thats why they need to get rid of this player economics dosnt make sense instead have a CCP Store where you Buy everything like any normal MMO .



I mind that there is a direct way to lose real life money by the actions of others in the game, be it gank, scam or market manipulation.

All other items in game are filtered through in game isk, so there is a slight disconnect. But Plex is bought straight up and can be lost without in game isk ever being part of the equation.

For that reason alone I would love to see it moved off market and into the NES only. There should never be a way for a player in the game to virtually put their hand in my wallet.


THey enver put their hands in your wallet. The $$$ value of a PLEX is null as it can't be legally converted into $$$. They never raeched for your wallet, only some in-game assets you were silly enough to move in a ship when there is actually no need to ever do so.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2015-01-28 18:29:06 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
I mind that there is a direct way to lose real life money by the actions of others in the game, be it gank, scam or market manipulation.
There really isn't. There is no way for other players to make trades through your account unless you've done something silly and banworthy such as hand them the login details.

Losing a PLEX is losing a PLEX. It is not “real-life money” any more (that money now sits in CCP's accounts). More than that, though, there's never any reason to lose PLEX to begin with unless you do something that even more silly than handing out your login details willy-nilly.



Oh, and on the topic of faucets and sinks, time for some good old copypasta:

ISK Faucets:
  • NPC bounties: Exploration, Belt rats, Missions
  • NPC buy orders: Trade goods, Sleeper loot, Overseer effects, Tags
  • Agent rewards: Mission rewards, Mission time bonuses, Incursion rewards, Deposit repayment
  • Insurance payout
  • GM actions: Reimbursement for lost pods
  • Character creation

ISK Sinks:
  • Market taxes & fees: Broker fees, Sales tax
  • NPC sell orders: Blueprints, Skill books, Trade goods
  • NPC station services: Repairs, Clone installation, Ship insurance
  • NPC station office fees: Rent, Impound penalties
  • Science and industry taxes
  • Wardecs
  • Reimbursed player bounties.
  • Sovereignty fees
  • PI fees: Building PI structures, Import/export tax (from NPC-controlled customs offices)
  • Corp & alliance fees: Corp creation, Alliance creation, Alliance upkeep, Creating/awarding medals, Corp registry ads
  • Agent fees: (Certain) LP store items, Locator agent services, Courier missions w/ deposits
  • CSPA Charges
  • Smuggling fines
  • GM Actions: Removal of bought ISK, Removal of insurance after ship reimbursement
  • Character deletion (including the “soft sink” of accounts being frozen or banned, and the even softer sink of accounts being abandoned forever)
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#71 - 2015-01-28 18:29:59 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Solops Crendraven wrote:
I dont mind Plex For $20 However I should be geting 2 billion isk not this not 600 million 1 day and 800million another day the price should be the same thats why they need to get rid of this player economics dosnt make sense instead have a CCP Store where you Buy everything like any normal MMO .



I mind that there is a direct way to lose real life money by the actions of others in the game, be it gank, scam or market manipulation.

All other items in game are filtered through in game isk, so there is a slight disconnect. But Plex is bought straight up and can be lost without in game isk ever being part of the equation.

For that reason alone I would love to see it moved off market and into the NES only. There should never be a way for a player in the game to virtually put their hand in my wallet.


THey enver put their hands in your wallet. The $$$ value of a PLEX is null as it can't be legally converted into $$$. They never raeched for your wallet, only some in-game assets you were silly enough to move in a ship when there is actually no need to ever do so.



I buy a plex for $15 and it gets scammed from me or blown up... it feels like you just took $15 from me.

You scam me for a Pith mod worth 1bil isk, I lost 1bil isk.

I know it is semantics, but it feels dirty.

And no lol, Plex doesn't stop being worth $15 just because it is in game now... it still has a replacement value of $15

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2015-01-28 18:36:51 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Solops Crendraven wrote:
I dont mind Plex For $20 However I should be geting 2 billion isk not this not 600 million 1 day and 800million another day the price should be the same thats why they need to get rid of this player economics dosnt make sense instead have a CCP Store where you Buy everything like any normal MMO .



I mind that there is a direct way to lose real life money by the actions of others in the game, be it gank, scam or market manipulation.

All other items in game are filtered through in game isk, so there is a slight disconnect. But Plex is bought straight up and can be lost without in game isk ever being part of the equation.

For that reason alone I would love to see it moved off market and into the NES only. There should never be a way for a player in the game to virtually put their hand in my wallet.


A PLEX is not real life money in any sense, when activated in game its real cash value actually disappears and it becomes just an item you bought like an afterburner and CCP at their whim can remove or delete it or turn it into a Fredo, or us players can say its only worth 0.01 ISK.

Also its the only item that u can use in a different region from where you are ( so shop around people) so there is NO reason ever to carry one in a ship, so if it can get lost its down to user stupidity not CCP design.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2015-01-28 18:39:34 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
I know it is semantics, but it feels dirty.
It's not just semantics, it's a matter of actual value. A PLEX has a value of 800M ISK or a couple of account services, including 30 days worth of training time. It does not have the value of $15 any more.

Quote:
And no lol, Plex doesn't stop being worth $15 just because it is in game now... it still has a replacement value of $15
No. It has a replacement value of 800M ISK or an account service. How you choose to acquire those can and will vary. At no point can you exchange your PLEX for $15, though.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2015-01-28 18:41:49 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Solops Crendraven wrote:
I dont mind Plex For $20 However I should be geting 2 billion isk not this not 600 million 1 day and 800million another day the price should be the same thats why they need to get rid of this player economics dosnt make sense instead have a CCP Store where you Buy everything like any normal MMO .



I mind that there is a direct way to lose real life money by the actions of others in the game, be it gank, scam or market manipulation.

All other items in game are filtered through in game isk, so there is a slight disconnect. But Plex is bought straight up and can be lost without in game isk ever being part of the equation.

For that reason alone I would love to see it moved off market and into the NES only. There should never be a way for a player in the game to virtually put their hand in my wallet.


THey enver put their hands in your wallet. The $$$ value of a PLEX is null as it can't be legally converted into $$$. They never raeched for your wallet, only some in-game assets you were silly enough to move in a ship when there is actually no need to ever do so.



I buy a plex for $15 and it gets scammed from me or blown up... it feels like you just took $15 from me.

You scam me for a Pith mod worth 1bil isk, I lost 1bil isk.

I know it is semantics, but it feels dirty.

And no lol, Plex doesn't stop being worth $15 just because it is in game now... it still has a replacement value of $15


The real value of a PLEX is whatever service CCP offer for a PLEX OR what player are willing to pay for it in game assets, nothing else. It has no monetary value at all. You might remember how much money it cost you to aquire it but the item itself is not worth that money.

@Tippia, not sure how Deposit payment from NPC can be a faucet seeing as you have to pay it first to launch the mission which if succesfull will pay it back. It's actually a sink if the player somehow fail the mission.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#75 - 2015-01-28 18:42:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
I know it is semantics, but it feels dirty.
It's not just semantics, it's a matter of actual value. A PLEX has a value of 800M ISK or a couple of account services, including 30 days worth of training time. It does not have the value of $15 any more.

Quote:
And no lol, Plex doesn't stop being worth $15 just because it is in game now... it still has a replacement value of $15
No. It has a replacement value of 800M ISK or an account service. How you choose to acquire those can and will vary. At no point can you exchange your PLEX for $15, though.



How much does it cost to buy a new plex to replace the one you lost?

Dude, you really are a troll

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2015-01-28 18:44:03 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
I know it is semantics, but it feels dirty.
It's not just semantics, it's a matter of actual value. A PLEX has a value of 800M ISK or a couple of account services, including 30 days worth of training time. It does not have the value of $15 any more.

Quote:
And no lol, Plex doesn't stop being worth $15 just because it is in game now... it still has a replacement value of $15
No. It has a replacement value of 800M ISK or an account service. How you choose to acquire those can and will vary. At no point can you exchange your PLEX for $15, though.



How much does it cost to buy a new plex to replace the one you lost?

Dude, you really are a troll


Monetary cost to replace is irrelevant. The value of something is equal to what you can get for it, not what you need to get an additionnal one.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#77 - 2015-01-28 18:45:17 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
I know it is semantics, but it feels dirty.
It's not just semantics, it's a matter of actual value. A PLEX has a value of 800M ISK or a couple of account services, including 30 days worth of training time. It does not have the value of $15 any more.

Quote:
And no lol, Plex doesn't stop being worth $15 just because it is in game now... it still has a replacement value of $15
No. It has a replacement value of 800M ISK or an account service. How you choose to acquire those can and will vary. At no point can you exchange your PLEX for $15, though.



How much does it cost to buy a new plex to replace the one you lost?

Dude, you really are a troll


Monetary cost to replace is irrelevant. The value of something is equal to what you can get for it, not what you need to get an additionnal one.



It is not irrelevent. There is only ONE place to get plex. Whether you use isk or money Plex comes from CCP for $15. So the replacement value of Plex is always $15 or whatever CCP is charging these days.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#78 - 2015-01-28 18:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



It is not irrelevent. There is only ONE place to get plex. Whether you use isk or money Plex comes from CCP for $15. So the replacement value of Plex is always $15 or whatever CCP is charging these days.


No. The value you lose if someone scam you out of a PLEX is not the value you paid for because the item does not have that value. It has the ISK value of what the market is willing to pay for it or whatever service CCP is willing to grant you for a PLEX.

For a PLEX to have a value of 15$, it would have to be possible to sell it for 15$.

There is only one way to get PLEX from CCP but you can get PLEX elsewhere like on the market. The value of an item is not what you PAID for it but what the market is willing to pay for it as you could of been scammed on the price. If I buy a gum for 5 million USD, it does not mean my gum is worth 5 million, it only mean I'm an idiot for paying 5 million for a gum with barely any actual value.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#79 - 2015-01-28 18:49:38 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
How much does it cost to buy a new plex to replace the one you lost?
Oh, about 5 minutes, I've been told.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#80 - 2015-01-28 18:49:43 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



It is not irrelevent. There is only ONE place to get plex. Whether you use isk or money Plex comes from CCP for $15. So the replacement value of Plex is always $15 or whatever CCP is charging these days.


No. The value you lose if someone scam you out of a PLEX is not the value you paid for because the item does not have that value. It has the ISK value of what the market is willing to pay for it or whatever service CCP is willing to grant you for a PLEX.

For a PLEX to have a value of 15$, it would have to be possible to sell it for 15$.



ok, You obviously do not know what the term "REPLACEMENT COST" means.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.