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What if webs only reduced radial velocity?
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-01-23 15:21:22 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you don't want to feel crippled by webs, don't let yourself fly in range of enemy webs. If the brawler got onto you, he deserve to slow you down to a crawl because you were outplayed one way or another.

Not fair to frigs, many of them are useless much outside of web range.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arla Sarain
#42 - 2015-01-23 16:06:36 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you don't want to feel crippled by webs, don't let yourself fly in range of enemy webs. If the brawler got onto you, he deserve to slow you down to a crawl because you were outplayed one way or another.

Not fair to frigs, many of them are useless much outside of web range.

Again, pretty much.

Anything outside of web range doesn't operate at 13km or at 15km, or at 17km.

Its either within 0 to 9km or past 20km where its slicers, LML condors, LML kestresl, etc.

Within the former its Webs that make the difference. And strictly because they can just put you down to 400m/s which is less than 0.1rad/s angular for anything further than 4kms.

As Reaver Glitterstim frig combat is extremely binary and linear. Less so at other scales.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-01-23 16:12:56 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you don't want to feel crippled by webs, don't let yourself fly in range of enemy webs. If the brawler got onto you, he deserve to slow you down to a crawl because you were outplayed one way or another.

Not fair to frigs, many of them are useless much outside of web range.

Again, pretty much.

Anything outside of web range doesn't operate at 13km or at 15km, or at 17km.

Its either within 0 to 9km or past 20km where its slicers, LML condors, LML kestresl, etc.

Within the former its Webs that make the difference. And strictly because they can just put you down to 400m/s which is less than 0.1rad/s angular for anything further than 4kms.

As Reaver Glitterstim frig combat is extremely binary and linear. Less so at other scales.


And yet, despite this supposed crippling imbalance, the frigs not mentioned as long range still gets used all the time.
Arla Sarain
#44 - 2015-01-23 16:22:48 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you don't want to feel crippled by webs, don't let yourself fly in range of enemy webs. If the brawler got onto you, he deserve to slow you down to a crawl because you were outplayed one way or another.

Not fair to frigs, many of them are useless much outside of web range.

Again, pretty much.

Anything outside of web range doesn't operate at 13km or at 15km, or at 17km.

Its either within 0 to 9km or past 20km where its slicers, LML condors, LML kestresl, etc.

Within the former its Webs that make the difference. And strictly because they can just put you down to 400m/s which is less than 0.1rad/s angular for anything further than 4kms.

As Reaver Glitterstim frig combat is extremely binary and linear. Less so at other scales.


And yet, despite this supposed crippling imbalance, the frigs not mentioned as long range still gets used all the time.

There is no crippling imbalance.

There is crippling "fit this to win, or don't fit this to lose". The author is fully aware that all, or a majority of hulls, are used frequently.

But what does a typical fight look like? One target burning away from another in a straight line pew pewing at each other.

CCP already mentioned that they want to move away from PvP being too much about learning and mastering a routine and more about being clever. The conflict is in proactiveness and reactiveness. Currently EVE is proactive heavy. But thats another subject.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#45 - 2015-01-23 16:30:15 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
So, basically, you don't like how math works, so you want to toss math entirely out of the game? How does the math work that will enable you to maintain your speed in regards to how fast you move in a circle but slows you down when you try to move in not a circle?

Same way the math works now.

Without changing the way math works, physics says your idea is not possible.


I've explained why it works. I'm not gonna elaborate further on how bloody right angled triangles work.

Your turn to explain why it doesn't work and not be a smartass by giving some ambiguous general explanation.


Right triangles aside. What is the purpose of this idea. What do you want it to do? Just the english version of what change you're trying to make.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-01-23 16:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
So, basically, you don't like how math works, so you want to toss math entirely out of the game? How does the math work that will enable you to maintain your speed in regards to how fast you move in a circle but slows you down when you try to move in not a circle?

Same way the math works now.


Right triangles aside. What is the purpose of this idea. What do you want it to do? Just the english version of what change you're trying to make.

Treat the orbit as a circular path and devise an equation to determine the ships max velocity and acceleration along that path, determined by its various relevant attributes. When the ship is deflected from the trajectory, recalculate a new circle. While it is traveling basically along the orbit, calculate its transversal velocity and radial velocity as separate vectors, the same as you would normally calculate x and y velocities.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arla Sarain
#47 - 2015-01-23 16:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
So, basically, you don't like how math works, so you want to toss math entirely out of the game? How does the math work that will enable you to maintain your speed in regards to how fast you move in a circle but slows you down when you try to move in not a circle?

Same way the math works now.

Without changing the way math works, physics says your idea is not possible.


I've explained why it works. I'm not gonna elaborate further on how bloody right angled triangles work.

Your turn to explain why it doesn't work and not be a smartass by giving some ambiguous general explanation.


Right triangles aside. What is the purpose of this idea. What do you want it to do? Just the english version of what change you're trying to make.


Webs don't affect you as much if you orbit your enemy, or employ better flying habits other than moving away from your enemy in a straight line.

Subject to the angle you are doing it at. The angle depends on Web strength. Strictly speaking, 1-web strength = cos(angle), hence for T2 webs the angle is 66.42 degrees.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#48 - 2015-01-23 16:50:21 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
So, basically, you don't like how math works, so you want to toss math entirely out of the game? How does the math work that will enable you to maintain your speed in regards to how fast you move in a circle but slows you down when you try to move in not a circle?

Same way the math works now.


Right triangles aside. What is the purpose of this idea. What do you want it to do? Just the english version of what change you're trying to make.

Treat the orbit as a circular path and devise an equation to determine the ships max velocity and acceleration along that path, determined by its various relevant attributes. When the ship is deflected from the trajectory, recalculate a new circle. While it is traveling basically along the orbit, calculate its orbital velocity and radial velocity as separate vectors, the same as you would normally calculate x and y velocities.



OK, so drop all the goggldy goop. I'll give you an example of what I'm looking for.

I want to be able to orbit a BS w/ my frigate with dual webs against me and as long as I don't approach or fly away from the battleship it won't be able to hit me.

That's the kind of thing I'm looking for. I get the math, triangles and techno theory that you want applied to the web. I want you to cut the techno garbage and tell me in words what you want this change to do in words to actual combat (pvp or pve). What game play effect are you going for?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2015-01-23 16:53:55 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
What game play effect are you going for?


It has been stated clearly enough. Get webbed: you may choose to suffer less websequences if you turn face and fight.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arla Sarain
#50 - 2015-01-23 16:57:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
So, basically, you don't like how math works, so you want to toss math entirely out of the game? How does the math work that will enable you to maintain your speed in regards to how fast you move in a circle but slows you down when you try to move in not a circle?

Same way the math works now.


Right triangles aside. What is the purpose of this idea. What do you want it to do? Just the english version of what change you're trying to make.

Treat the orbit as a circular path and devise an equation to determine the ships max velocity and acceleration along that path, determined by its various relevant attributes. When the ship is deflected from the trajectory, recalculate a new circle. While it is traveling basically along the orbit, calculate its orbital velocity and radial velocity as separate vectors, the same as you would normally calculate x and y velocities.



OK, so drop all the goggldy goop. I'll give you an example of what I'm looking for.

I want to be able to orbit a BS w/ my frigate with dual webs against me and as long as I don't approach or fly away from the battleship it won't be able to hit me.

That's the kind of thing I'm looking for. I get the math, triangles and techno theory that you want applied to the web. I want you to cut the techno garbage and tell me in words what you want this change to do in words to actual combat (pvp or pve). What game play effect are you going for?


The proposed change allows you to attempt to orbit. I.E. the net effect is that the web prevents you from escaping, but not maneuvering.

If you fight within web range currently your choice is to either start the engagement at 500m and MAYBE have enough angular velocity to beat tracking of guns of same size,

or

your only other strategy (bar standing still and winning the DPS race if your skills/weapon choice/ammo choice permits) is to burn away, as fast as possible, in a straight line.

Either/Or. Hence binary choice that Reaver refers to. Also can be drawn as a parallel to fitting options. If you don't fit a web, you are screwed unless your fit allows you to operate at 20km+.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#51 - 2015-01-23 17:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
OK, so you want to ensure a BS can't track you (even if your webbed) as long as you stay and fight.

I'll lay out a laymans opinion.

BS are big ships w/ big guns that track poorly.
Frigs are small fast ships that can get under a BS's guns.

The counter to this for a BS is to use one or even 2 midslots to counter this by fitting web(s).

Your idea is to render the webs useless if you are fighting him, but allow them to be effective if you are trying to run away.

I conclude you want the ability to suck in close to a BS and fight it with no risk. I mean, why would a frigate run from a BS if it knew from the get go that if it didn't run it would be safe. This would allow risk free tackling.

It would be less load on the server if you just requested webs to be removed from the game. It would have the same net affect. (assuming no frig would run from a BS after your web change - being that it would make zero sense to do so).

I'm going to give your game breaking idea a -1.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#52 - 2015-01-23 17:20:47 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
a post critical of the OP

Careful. It appears he's hunched over his keyboard every waking hour of the day defending his nifty idea with vigorous vigor. You may get hurt.Straight

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Arla Sarain
#53 - 2015-01-23 17:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Serendipity Lost wrote:
OK, so you want to ensure a BS can't track you (even if your webbed) as long as you stay and fight.

It would be less load on the server if you just requested webs to be removed from the game. It would have the same net affect. (assuming no frig would run from a BS after your web change - being that it would make zero sense to do so).

Already explained that this is not aimed at BSs and what can be done to rectify the effect on BSs.

And lets not pretend to be a computer science level engineer and talk about server load. Just stop.

Deacon Abox wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
a post critical of the OP

Careful. It appears he's hunched over his keyboard every waking hour of the day defending his nifty idea with vigorous vigor. You may get hurt.Straight


I have only one waking hour of the day, preceded by 8 hours of sleep. If you paid more attention in your "investigation" of me (because you are a bloody creep and all for caring to spend your time to find out when I post or not), you would notice that.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2015-01-23 17:28:55 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
This goes hand in hand with my target painter idea. They should have a tracking feature such that painters on larger ships don't track as well as on small ships. That way a frigate would be on an even playing field when locked in combat with a BS.



This post makes me want to slap you with a minki whale.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#55 - 2015-01-23 17:37:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
This goes hand in hand with my target painter idea. They should have a tracking feature such that painters on larger ships don't track as well as on small ships. That way a frigate would be on an even playing field when locked in combat with a BS.



This post makes me want to slap you with a minki whale.

Careful, he'll keep posting til he finds a Blue Whale (they didn't go extinct <3)

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Arla Sarain
#56 - 2015-01-23 17:59:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Deacon Abox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
This goes hand in hand with my target painter idea. They should have a tracking feature such that painters on larger ships don't track as well as on small ships. That way a frigate would be on an even playing field when locked in combat with a BS.



This post makes me want to slap you with a minki whale.

he'll keep posting

The irony is that you keep posting but present nothing relevant to the subject. Go troll General Discussion and/or Warfare & Tactics where you belong.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-01-23 18:00:33 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
What game play effect are you going for?


It has been stated clearly enough. Get webbed: you may choose to suffer less websequences if you turn face and fight.


The consequence of getting webbed is reduced velocity. Why should it be reduced but only in certain direction but not in others?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#58 - 2015-01-23 18:04:54 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
What game play effect are you going for?


It has been stated clearly enough. Get webbed: you may choose to suffer less websequences if you turn face and fight.


The consequence of getting webbed is reduced velocity. Why should it be reduced but only in certain direction but not in others?


So the OP's gatecamp won't be crashed anymore by some drunk solo hyperion pilot.
Arla Sarain
#59 - 2015-01-23 18:05:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
What game play effect are you going for?


It has been stated clearly enough. Get webbed: you may choose to suffer less websequences if you turn face and fight.


Why should it be reduced but only in certain direction but not in others?

Because they trivialise fights and make certain strategies irrelevant.

Lloyd Roses wrote:

So the OP's gatecamp won't be crashed anymore by some drunk solo hyperion pilot.

I live in lowsec and what is a hyperion?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-01-23 18:06:52 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
What game play effect are you going for?


It has been stated clearly enough. Get webbed: you may choose to suffer less websequences if you turn face and fight.


The consequence of getting webbed is reduced velocity. Why should it be reduced but only in certain direction but not in others?


So the OP's gatecamp won't be crashed anymore by some drunk solo hyperion pilot.


Not really as you could can already use webs to prevent a gate camp crashing. The only difference with this implemented is it would make positioning of the web ships important.