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Incursus vs Tristan

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George Gouillot
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-01-22 07:33:37 UTC
If you fly solo, an unlinked dual-rep rail Incursus will die to most T1 frigs, it just takes longer. As will any scram-kiter without a web.
If you insist flying this solo, you have to use drugs that are worth more than your ship - at least strong drop (and exile) would be mandatory.
Catalytic morphisis
Ruthless Regiment
Brotherhood of Spacers
#42 - 2015-01-22 08:28:41 UTC
George Gouillot wrote:
If you fly solo, an unlinked dual-rep rail Incursus will die to most T1 frigs, it just takes longer. As will any scram-kiter without a web.
If you insist flying this solo, you have to use drugs that are worth more than your ship - at least strong drop (and exile) would be mandatory.

Disagree completely. I've ran around solo many times without drugs or links, Granted I could have took on bigger fleets, But to say a Dual rep incursus would die to most T1 frigs is wrong, If it isn't fit right it will, But you can still fight a hell of a lot and come out on top

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#43 - 2015-01-22 11:06:17 UTC
Goe Rilla wrote:


Maybe the game or maybe me.

Im open to suggestions.


You lost because you suck, and he doesn't?

But that wasn't enough for you, you also had to come to the forums and make a total fool out of your sad face.

George Gouillot
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2015-01-22 17:20:09 UTC
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
George Gouillot wrote:
If you fly solo, an unlinked dual-rep rail Incursus will die to most T1 frigs, it just takes longer. As will any scram-kiter without a web.
If you insist flying this solo, you have to use drugs that are worth more than your ship - at least strong drop (and exile) would be mandatory.

Disagree completely. I've ran around solo many times without drugs or links, Granted I could have took on bigger fleets, But to say a Dual rep incursus would die to most T1 frigs is wrong, If it isn't fit right it will, But you can still fight a hell of a lot and come out on top


It would make it easier for me to surrender if I could find a single solo kill in an Incursus on your kb Roll
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#45 - 2015-01-22 17:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ValentinaDLM
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
George Gouillot wrote:
If you fly solo, an unlinked dual-rep rail Incursus will die to most T1 frigs, it just takes longer. As will any scram-kiter without a web.
If you insist flying this solo, you have to use drugs that are worth more than your ship - at least strong drop (and exile) would be mandatory.

Disagree completely. I've ran around solo many times without drugs or links, Granted I could have took on bigger fleets, But to say a Dual rep incursus would die to most T1 frigs is wrong, If it isn't fit right it will, But you can still fight a hell of a lot and come out on top

The problem is there is no way to fit it right. If you fit ab/scram/cap booster and wait at a plex beacon so you are sure you will get the scram any brawler that warps in on you is going to have a web and control range, and with a dual rep you aren't going to put out the damage needed to kill something before it can pull range on you.

If you do still fit the web, and forgo the cap booster, then your burst tank will be very high but ultimately eating that much cap it would be outlasted by other brawlers with 400mm plates or MASB meaning that basically only SAAR ships would lose to it.

Outside of a plex, fitting an mwd scram and cap booster you will fit getting kited to be a real thing, the dual armor rep incursus isn't terribly fast or agile and a good pilot won't get slingshoted by it very easily.

If you have links, lots of time you can overheat your afterburner and scram and prevent people from getting out of range auickly since the boost in speed is nice and your scram is longer than unlinked webs or use your long scram range and pulse an mwd to pull back into range when people try and escape.

So basically what that person above you said is absolutely true. People lose to dual rep incursus without webs mainly because they either made a mistake either getting to close rather than pulling range or clicking approach in a kiting ship or something to that effect. The fact is the incursus only had 3 mids and if it lacks the ability to manage range it is going to die or lose a kill.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2015-01-22 19:46:38 UTC
If you think the Incursus has trouble controlling range, try flying a Punisher. That ship is so crap. You have to be really good or be fighting really bad pilots in order to make it work. It's really only good for having a good armor tank and that's about it.

For how good of a brawler the Incursus is, it's ability to control range is just fine. It does over 1,100 MS and can basically brawl with any frigate.

You can't act like 3 mid-slots isn't enough on a frigate. That's really all you need and on top of that the Incursus has insane damage and tank and isn't slow by any means. There are frigates that are way more worse off than the Incursus, like the Rifter and the Punisher.

Literally the only time I've had trouble against a Rifter was against a pilot with full Snakes or Slaves and fleet bonuses. And Punishers are so rare in frigate PvP, I get more fights against stupid stuff like Herons than I do against Punisher, because no one flies them because they suck compared to the Executioner or even the Tormentors.

Any frigate flying a double-web setup is usually going to be a paper plane, Slashers die within seconds if you get a good shot in on them. There are exceptions like the double-web armor Kestrel which I have had trouble against, and I'm not sure if there are any viable double-web Breacher setups but I've never seen one.

I mean The Incursus is such a good brawler that you have to make some sacrifices, if it could control range on everything with it's current stats it would be totally broken.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#47 - 2015-01-22 22:27:47 UTC
3 slots isn't enough to fit a web, point, prop mod and a cap booster was my point. Put a web on it and it is a fine brawler, take it off and it isn't.
Arla Sarain
#48 - 2015-01-22 23:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Ares Desideratus wrote:
1,100 MS

Are you aware that 1100m/s is not fast, even for AB ships?

Ships which don't have webs get kited by ships who do. Because your incursus when webbed moves 500m/s OH and every other frig moves at 1500m/s no less. This is if the fight started at 0m range when you locked your target.

Your target ends up being at the edge of your null falloff in six seconds, enough for you to cycle your guns at most 3 times.

I don't see why Punishers should worry about targets moving away from them. They reach out to scram range with optimal. On the contrary punishers should worry about stuff getting close. And even then, a vamp can perma tank a punisher.

I don't understand why people trivialise these things. Locking up another AB frig will take 2-3 seconds. This is enough to start the fight at 3km away. Without a web unless your incursus is rail fit, you won't hit anything with that 160 paper DPS you get.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2015-01-23 00:00:44 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
1,100 MS

Are you aware that 1100m/s is not fast, even for AB ships?

Ships which don't have webs get kited by ships who do. Because your incursus when webbed moves 500m/s OH and every other frig moves at 1500m/s no less. This is if the fight started at 0m range when you locked your target.

I don't see why Punishers should worry about targets moving away from them. They reach out to scram range with optimal. On the contrary punishers should worry about stuff getting close. And even then, a vamp can perma tank a punisher.


Of course I am aware that 1,100m/s is not particular fast. But as I was saying you can't have it both ways, you can't be the best at brawling AND the best at range controlling, because that would just be overpowered.

Either way 1,100 isn't THAT slow. The Kestrel is slower, the Merlin is slower. The Punisher is slower. And the Incursus is arguably better than those ships at brawling.

Every other frigate does NOT move at 1,500m/s, I don't know where you're getting that from, that's actually just a totally made-up number. Even the Slasher only goes 1,400m/s. I'm not saying that's slow, I'm just saying you pulled that 1,500 number right out of your own bumhole.

Yeah the Punisher can potentially do DPS all the way out to 10km. In practice it actually doesn't work out so well, though. There's a reason why nobody flies Punishers. It's because it is very hard to make them work.
Interfectorem Tacet
Doomheim
#50 - 2015-01-23 01:24:52 UTC
The punisher can be a really surprising little box of hurt!

Range control isn't an issue with it as you can near instantly swap ammo to reach out and touch anything within scram range within OPTIMAL. People keep forgetting this!

The issue is super close ships that out track your lasers. But with decent flying and a metastasis rig or two this stops being an issue.

OR

fit a web instead of a scram and apply 100% of your DPS to your target whatever range they are (within scram or course) and you would be surprised how much damage that little gold block puts out. They kill a lot of things before they realise they are not scrammed and try to escape.



TBH laser is the one thing that I really love in eve and are making it difficult to stick with my Minnie only plan for this new toon.
Goe Rilla
Quantum Force Inc.
DammFam
#51 - 2015-01-23 13:18:56 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
By the way, there is no way the Incursus needs to be fixed. It is hands down one of the best frigates right now. Such a powerhouse.



uhmm. despite OP's ramblings, i really disagree on this. at least for solo work in FW space

in that case you're doing it wrong


care to expand on that? I will, trying to explain my statement, i look forward to your opinion.

In my opinion the Incursus has poor range control (low speed, only 3 mids so no 2 webs or a td to force opponent closer) so blaster fit can get scram kited with ease by a lot of ships, or even out tracked by some setups

Rail fit, which i used to love, it has sub par dps compared to some other scram kiters (beams, by a massive amount, and to a lesser extent some rocket fits), and again lacks range control capabilities compared to others (anything with 2 webs or a td), is obviously vulnerable to dual web setups or TD unlike some others (rockets), no selectable ammo type.


Its saving grace, the good tanking abilities, IMO don't make up for those cons i listed, especially compared to let's say a breacher (dual masb or dual tank), that can sport a bigger tank, just a bit lower dps on paper compared to rails, but with no tracking issue and selectable damage actually making it superior. Also, the boat doesn't really have great cap life, which actually works against the longer fights an active tank ship would be best suited to, and a neut or even a nos can ruin its day.


This
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2015-01-23 16:17:32 UTC
Goe Rilla wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
By the way, there is no way the Incursus needs to be fixed. It is hands down one of the best frigates right now. Such a powerhouse.



uhmm. despite OP's ramblings, i really disagree on this. at least for solo work in FW space

in that case you're doing it wrong


care to expand on that? I will, trying to explain my statement, i look forward to your opinion.

In my opinion the Incursus has poor range control (low speed, only 3 mids so no 2 webs or a td to force opponent closer) so blaster fit can get scram kited with ease by a lot of ships, or even out tracked by some setups

Rail fit, which i used to love, it has sub par dps compared to some other scram kiters (beams, by a massive amount, and to a lesser extent some rocket fits), and again lacks range control capabilities compared to others (anything with 2 webs or a td), is obviously vulnerable to dual web setups or TD unlike some others (rockets), no selectable ammo type.


Its saving grace, the good tanking abilities, IMO don't make up for those cons i listed, especially compared to let's say a breacher (dual masb or dual tank), that can sport a bigger tank, just a bit lower dps on paper compared to rails, but with no tracking issue and selectable damage actually making it superior. Also, the boat doesn't really have great cap life, which actually works against the longer fights an active tank ship would be best suited to, and a neut or even a nos can ruin its day.


This



Oh don't "this" me, man. You would have wrecked that shittty dual rep tristan if you flew a man cursus.

My post wasn't meant to say incursus sucks. It's very good, at certain things, specific situations. Might even be the best at those. But it's not a ship that has a broad engagement envelope with each of its specific fits, which is what i personally want from a ship i fly solo
Goe Rilla
Quantum Force Inc.
DammFam
#53 - 2015-01-24 12:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Goe Rilla
Doctor Knuckles wrote:


Oh don't "this" me, man. You would have wrecked that shittty dual rep tristan if you flew a man cursus.

My post wasn't meant to say incursus sucks. It's very good, at certain things, specific situations. Might even be the best at those. But it's not a ship that has a broad engagement envelope with each of its specific fits, which is what i personally want from a ship i fly solo


So for solo, what's your prerefence ?

Im willing to change boat if it would mean a less frustrating time finding relevant targets.
Arla Sarain
#54 - 2015-01-24 15:03:46 UTC
Goe Rilla wrote:


So for solo, what's your prerefence ?

Im willing to change boat if it would mean a less frustrating time finding relevant targets.

Dual web RFFs.

Cos why lose when you can win.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2015-01-24 15:26:24 UTC
tormentor is getting quite popular now, small lasers being very strong along with 2 drones and a good slot layout means its a force to be reckoned with.

tristan is the go-to newbro frigate but its overused imo

breacher is interesting but requires a bit more sp investment

merlins are great but suffer a lot of the downsides of the incursus unless you fit it man mode dual web no point and neutrons.

atrons are pretty mean if you fit them for falloff as well.

Art of Explosions
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2015-01-24 23:02:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
Goe Rilla wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:


Oh don't "this" me, man. You would have wrecked that shittty dual rep tristan if you flew a man cursus.

My post wasn't meant to say incursus sucks. It's very good, at certain things, specific situations. Might even be the best at those. But it's not a ship that has a broad engagement envelope with each of its specific fits, which is what i personally want from a ship i fly solo


So for solo, what's your prerefence ?

Im willing to change boat if it would mean a less frustrating time finding relevant targets.


There's no one ship that can rule them all. Some fit a crtain playstyle, some another one. Some do good against certain opponents, some against others.

You really just gotta experiment over and over untill you get the hang of things, and get to the point that when you see a certain ship on d scan, you already have a pretty precise idea of the fits he might be rocking, and what are your ship's chances against those, and how you have to manouver to better them.

Just remember, that if you lose a 1v1, it almost always isn't because ship x is overpowered, it's because you brought the wrong tool to kill it or you ****** up your tactic
Catalytic morphisis
Ruthless Regiment
Brotherhood of Spacers
#57 - 2015-01-26 09:11:20 UTC
George Gouillot wrote:
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
George Gouillot wrote:
If you fly solo, an unlinked dual-rep rail Incursus will die to most T1 frigs, it just takes longer. As will any scram-kiter without a web.
If you insist flying this solo, you have to use drugs that are worth more than your ship - at least strong drop (and exile) would be mandatory.

Disagree completely. I've ran around solo many times without drugs or links, Granted I could have took on bigger fleets, But to say a Dual rep incursus would die to most T1 frigs is wrong, If it isn't fit right it will, But you can still fight a hell of a lot and come out on top


It would make it easier for me to surrender if I could find a single solo kill in an Incursus on your kb Roll


Yeah agree its been a Damn long time since I last flew one, You'd have to look probably years ago :P

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er
Varathius
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#58 - 2015-01-26 09:14:29 UTC
Goe Rilla wrote:
Cap boosted dualrep Tristan

vs

Cap boosted dualrep railcursus.

And Tristan wins ?

Fail game balance, as always.


Two mistakes already with the above.

Mistake 1 : cap boosted dualrep tristan....

.... if you had two energy drainers on it, any incrusus dies miserably to a tristan...

Mistake 2 : Incursus that decides to fight a tristan.

.... incursus is a free kill for any propper fitted tristan pilot, shouldn't be fighting one to begin with.
Goe Rilla
Quantum Force Inc.
DammFam
#59 - 2015-01-26 10:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Goe Rilla
Varathius wrote:
[quote=Goe Rilla]

.... incursus is a free kill for any propper fitted tristan pilot, shouldn't be fighting one to begin with.


Nonesense

If true balance, each ships of the same class should be able to annihilate eachother respectably with proper fittings each, one shouldnt simply trump on the other because of superior native abilities.

I guess thats why we have this debate.
Varathius
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-01-26 14:56:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Varathius
Goe Rilla wrote:
Varathius wrote:
[quote=Goe Rilla]

.... incursus is a free kill for any propper fitted tristan pilot, shouldn't be fighting one to begin with.


Nonesense

If true balance, each ships of the same class should be able to annihilate eachother respectably with proper fittings each, one shouldnt simply trump on the other because of superior native abilities.

I guess thats why we have this debate.


nonesense?

2 neuts (sometimes 3), = incursus useless within 20 seconds while tristan piles on with an extra blaster (depending on skills that is nearly 50 dps), plus full drone damage, depending on skills again, that is bad news for incursus. What about this is nonesense to you?

If people don't know what a tristan is for and don't know how to fit them, with other words, don't understand the tristan's purpose, then yes, such people might indeed think that a tristan with 2 or 3 neuts that makes an incursus useless in a few seconds is nonesense...