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Eris needs help
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Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#21 - 2015-03-10 08:42:57 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Don't fit a bubble launcher? If you want it to use for DPS, you do not need a bubble. Have other Eris specialized in bubbling do that. That's how DPS-Dictor fleets work.


Why would you ever use the Eris for bubbling? What if you want to use a dictor in conventional fleets, where it's job is to bubble, cloak, scram and kill inties? Why would you use your specialised Eris fits for the role that others do better with a single fit?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#22 - 2015-03-10 09:00:11 UTC
You can kill Intis with Blasters, not rails. A conventional fleet dictor doesn't need a full rack of weapons nor do you need max DPS. Your role is to bubble stuff, not DPS it down.

[Eris, bubble enyo sup]

400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Centii A-Type Explosive Plating
'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I

Warp Scrambler II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I

Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Prototype Cloaking Device I
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Interdiction Sphere Launcher I

Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

What I was talking about are Dictor fleets where only some dictors need bubbles and the rest of the fleet are pure DPS fits.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#23 - 2015-03-10 09:10:25 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You can kill Intis with Blasters, not rails. A conventional fleet dictor doesn't need a full rack of weapons nor do you need max DPS. Your role is to bubble stuff, not DPS it down.

[Eris, bubble enyo sup]

400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Centii A-Type Explosive Plating
'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I

Warp Scrambler II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I

Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Prototype Cloaking Device I
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Interdiction Sphere Launcher I

Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

What I was talking about are Dictor fleets where only some dictors need bubbles and the rest of the fleet are pure DPS fits.


One more time, why would you ever use that instead of the other three? You are slower than Sabre, with half the tank, same sig and same dps with less range, and it costs more.

If you use dictor only as a bubble, why ever choose Eris over a Flycatcher?

I'm trying to find out why you think the obviously inadequate CPU and terrible slot layout of Eris shouldn't be fixed. What is the benefit of using an Eris as an interdictor?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#24 - 2015-03-10 09:20:56 UTC
As a pure bubbler? Just like any other dictor: you land on the enemy fleet and bubble up and either get out or die. There's no need for speed. For anything else? Well, close range brawler and that's it.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-03-10 12:01:53 UTC
Even HICs have a trade off between dps or bubble.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#26 - 2015-03-10 14:02:02 UTC
See this is what happens when CCP designs the ships with a racial straightjacket theory and not with a design based on function.

I know most folks poopoo it because only pve noobish players really use them, but for example the same thing happens for all the hauling ships. Lows will be filled with expanded cargoholds and mids with shield tank. But CCP keeps thinking that Gallente and Amarr should forget the function of the ship and how to maximize that function, and instead should use some lows for an armor tank. Then to make matters worse they short the base cargo capacity so that when you do fill the lows with cargo expanders it is about equal to the capacity of the midslot heavy and low slot poor Caldari and Minmatar haulers.

A friggin interdictor needs a low sig, speed, agility, and a shield buffer (even with some sig hit). Armor buffering will only hurt the speed and agility too much. A structure buffer won't get any reps. An active tank will probably just get volleyed. So the entire class of ships should be designed around low sig, mobility, and some small shield buffer.

Maybe some day they'll finally chuck the racial straightjacket. But for now it is securely fastened. Learn to enjoy the frustration.What?

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#27 - 2015-03-10 14:21:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Deacon Abox wrote:
A friggin interdictor needs a low sig, speed, agility, and a shield buffer (even with some sig hit). Armor buffering will only hurt the speed and agility too much. A structure buffer won't get any reps. An active tank will probably just get volleyed. So the entire class of ships should be designed around low sig, mobility, and some small shield buffer.

Very effective Armor Heretics might want to disagree with you. Especially, if you use them in an armor fleet with armor Logistics and can keep them alive and kicking for extended periods of time. Their function can vary and a Sabre in an Armor fleet is nothing but a throw-away dictor. A properly fitted Heretic, however, can withstand incoming damage with some reps and work on the field for an extended time frame. Making all ships equal just causes these variations to disappear and only 1 dictor to be truly useful as Sabres and Flycatchers are the only dictors for proper shield tank and only the Sabre has the sufficient speed.
To get it back to the Eris: It can do just that as well, work in an Armor fleet, be tanked, bubble and receive reps to be able to stay on field longer. Eventually, both Heretic and Eris die, but they have served their role better than a Sabre or Flycatcher could. Their use depend on the situation and not every ship needs to be useful in every situation.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#28 - 2015-03-11 06:09:37 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Deacon Abox wrote:
A friggin interdictor needs a low sig, speed, agility, and a shield buffer (even with some sig hit). Armor buffering will only hurt the speed and agility too much. A structure buffer won't get any reps. An active tank will probably just get volleyed. So the entire class of ships should be designed around low sig, mobility, and some small shield buffer.

Very effective Armor Heretics might want to disagree with you. Especially, if you use them in an armor fleet with armor Logistics and can keep them alive and kicking for extended periods of time. Their function can vary and a Sabre in an Armor fleet is nothing but a throw-away dictor. A properly fitted Heretic, however, can withstand incoming damage with some reps and work on the field for an extended time frame. Making all ships equal just causes these variations to disappear and only 1 dictor to be truly useful as Sabres and Flycatchers are the only dictors for proper shield tank and only the Sabre has the sufficient speed.
To get it back to the Eris: It can do just that as well, work in an Armor fleet, be tanked, bubble and receive reps to be able to stay on field longer. Eventually, both Heretic and Eris die, but they have served their role better than a Sabre or Flycatcher could. Their use depend on the situation and not every ship needs to be useful in every situation.


This is about the Eris, not about the other three dictors that work just fine.

Even if you fit it for max armor tank, it still has less EHP than standard fleet fit sabre, but 0 dps, 1km/s and 2 slower, with as big signature.

Not every ship has to be useful in every situation, Eris does not need to bridge, be a logistics cruiser or exploration platform, but obviously it should be at least usable in the purpose it was designed for. Now if you can't answer the question "why choose Eris over the other 3", you agree it is indeed broken and needs attention.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#29 - 2015-03-11 07:42:31 UTC
The reason why I cannot follow you are these two screenshots:

Heretic | Eris

In contrast to the Eris, I had to use a fitting rig on the Heretic. The Heretic has 148 DPS with CN Rockets to achieve a similar range. The Heretic is significantly slower and aligns slower and has less EHP than an Eris that is rigged for speed. Do you want to tell me that the Eris is better than the Heretic? Yes, I can dual-prop the Heretic, which I did in this case. If I do not, I can replace the AB with a Web and lose the fitting rig for a Trimark, for instance, which makes me even slower, but gain 400 EHP. Fantastic. So, is the Heretic "usable in the purpose it was designed for" with these stats? Should we buff the Heretic as well?

You also compare a shield dictor with an armor dictor. I hope you see that this is a futile comparison.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#30 - 2015-03-12 13:45:43 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You also compare a shield dictor with an armor dictor. I hope you see that this is a futile comparison.

But see, that is the problem. Armor dictor is sort of an oxymoron. Fast agile ship classes really should not be asked to armor tank.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#31 - 2015-03-12 15:20:19 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You also compare a shield dictor with an armor dictor. I hope you see that this is a futile comparison.

But see, that is the problem. Armor dictor is sort of an oxymoron. Fast agile ship classes really should not be asked to armor tank.

That is your opinion and your's alone (ok, maybe you have the OP as support but that's still insignificant). I have seen armor Heretics perform outstandingly well where Sabres failed miserably. Currently, we have choice between a wide variety of things dictors can do (Kite-LML-Flycatchers, very agile Bubble Sabres, Insta-Lock/Insta-Pop-Arty Sabres, Brawl-Monster Eris, LML Heretics/longlasting armor Heretics, etc.). Narrowing that down to just one thing is not an option.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#32 - 2015-03-12 15:39:28 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You can kill Intis with Blasters, not rails. A conventional fleet dictor doesn't need a full rack of weapons nor do you need max DPS. Your role is to bubble stuff, not DPS it down.

[Eris, bubble enyo sup]

400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Centii A-Type Explosive Plating
'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I

Warp Scrambler II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I

Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Prototype Cloaking Device I
Light Electron Blaster II, Null S
Interdiction Sphere Launcher I

Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

What I was talking about are Dictor fleets where only some dictors need bubbles and the rest of the fleet are pure DPS fits.


Wow.. thats a terrible eris. Have fun getting kited by a rifter.

Not to mention you are trying to go fast with a 400plate. Conflicting designs in a fit are bad and waste slots. The best eris is a rail eris setup to kite. Or hull eris setup for gank with neutrons. Hull eris actually might be better than armor (someone should prob look into that).

Otherwise, if we ignore this abomination, why would i choose your fit, over a flycatcher, sabre, heretic? What does the eris bring to the table, that the others dont?

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#33 - 2015-03-12 16:29:27 UTC
Not my fitting, it's from Lloyd Roses on page 1 with some adjustments to accommodate everything the OP asks for. I do not need that dictor to go fast, I need that dictor to stay on field and give our logistics a chance to rep it. Both, the Eris and the Heretic I linked in the images accomplish that in particular armor fleets (HAC/CS with Guardians/Oneiros). What you want cannot be accomplished by the Eris, and frankly should not as it's a role that falls to the Sabre.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#34 - 2015-03-12 18:05:36 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Not my fitting, it's from Lloyd Roses on page 1 with some adjustments to accommodate everything the OP asks for. I do not need that dictor to go fast, I need that dictor to stay on field and give our logistics a chance to rep it. Both, the Eris and the Heretic I linked in the images accomplish that in particular armor fleets (HAC/CS with Guardians/Oneiros). What you want cannot be accomplished by the Eris, and frankly should not as it's a role that falls to the Sabre.


There are more roles than fleet roles. Although with the new tactical dessies, that will prob leave the dictors as strictly bubblers. Outside of a gang with reps and CS (because what ship isnt good with reps and links on grid), the eris has nothing going for it. For YOUR fleets it might passable. But for other small gangs that dont have dedicated reps and CS available, its the least desirable of the dictors for the reasons already pointed out (sig, tank, fitting etc).

You still didnt answer the question.

What does the eris do, that another dictor cant? If you were in a small gang that didnt have the best of the best available, what reason would you make the eris your choice as bubbler? Assuming you can fly all dictors.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#35 - 2015-03-12 18:24:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
As a bubbler in a small gang? It's a bubbler, it doesn't need a reason. It can keep up just like any other dictor with MWDing ships and it does just like any other dictor in the process, or receives reps. There is no standing out feature in any other dictor in that role. The Heretic has the best armor tank, the Flycatcher the best shield tank, the Sabre is the fastest and the Eris has the best DPS and is fast (100m/s fast with my "derp fit" than a Flycatcher which has just 1k more EHP in return). What else is there? You also clearly have to show me fittings that outperform the Eris significantly, because anything that I can come up with puts the Eris in a pretty good spot.
In another role? None. Reason: I can fly a Heretic and have no reason to fly another dictor for any reason. The Eris has the bast DPS but even if my corp/alliance would make an Eris doctrine around that ship, I'd still just fly a Heretic. Call it cultural bias, I prefer Amarr ships over the other scrapheaps.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#36 - 2015-03-12 20:32:03 UTC
Heretic got three mids and three lows and a 20% resist bonus (=roughly a second eanm)
Eris got two mids and four lows with some damage bonuses(=something like an integrated magstab instead)

One got a useful bonus for dictorwork, the other one doesn't. If you'd count the *dictorslots* (400mm plate, eanm, dcu, ab, mwd, sometimes scram), the eris is plain worse when looked at that way.
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