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Dev blog: The Svipul Tactical Destroyer andProjectile Changes

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Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#261 - 2015-02-04 17:55:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone


Any comment on the notion that Tactical Destroyers are essentially making Assault Frigates mildly irrelevant?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#262 - 2015-02-04 18:45:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As for the concern about the placement of the MWD bloom bonus in defensive mode, we set up the defensive mode on the Svipul to create one of the largest differentiating factors between it and the Confessor. The MWD bonus is obviously not useful when scrammed, but it is a very powerful way to reduce damage when taking fire while unscrammed (the resilience of ships like the Talwar against longer-range damage provides a good example of the potential of MWD sig bloom bonuses)


so mwd sig bonuses are basically bonuses to kiting, and it has a gun bonus only for long range weapons. you guys sure do like kiting.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#263 - 2015-02-04 18:46:07 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone


Any comment on the notion that Tactical Destroyers are essentially making Assault Frigates mildly irrelevant?


assault frigates were irrelevant long before tactical destroyers.
Tara'Quoya Rax
Atlantis Asteria
#264 - 2015-02-04 20:57:16 UTC
RIP Svipul Sad
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#265 - 2015-02-04 22:06:54 UTC
wondering if it would be to late to ask to swap the mode icons to offense, prop, defense from the current defense, offense, prop icons. Would make it more intuitive to align it with the typical roles of high-med-low slots.

(would have only one conflict with shield tanks which are medium slots. but the current arbitrary order conflicts everywhere)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Paddy Finn
Greater Order Of Destruction
#266 - 2015-02-04 22:28:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Paddy Finn
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback so far. As always, I encourage people to hop onto SISI and give the ship a try for yourself as the feedback from actual experience with new ships is always extremely valuable.

I want to address a few of the requests that are popping up in this thread.

Optimal Bonus vs Falloff
This is the most common request showing up here, and I can definitely understand why. A falloff bonus instead (or alongside) the optimal bonus would unequivocally make the Svipul more powerful, as it would be very useful for autocannons in addition to helping artillery (especially artillery with close range ammo).
However it's very important to remember that we don't always want to give the most powerful possible bonuses to every ship. Rather than asking if falloff would make the ship more powerful (it definitely would), we should be asking if falloff would make the ship more balanced and provide more viable choices. This is a much more complicated question.
It's important to remember that specific ship fittings can be extremely powerful even if they aren't using all of their bonuses. It is out belief that the proposed Svipul stats would create an extremely effective autocannon ship. In fact, I can practically guarantee that if we release with the proposed stats autocannon Svipuls will be even more popular than artillery Svipuls.
If we turn out to be wrong and the autocannon Svipul doesn't end up being powerful enough to be worth using, then adding a falloff bonus would be an extremely effective way to increase the ship's power level and we would definitely consider it.

MWD Sig Bloom Bonus on the Defensive Mode
There have also been several concerns raised about the MWD sig bloom reduction. Some people think it fits better in the propulsion mode, and others claim that it pigeonholes the ship into MWDs.
For the second concern, I'd give the same answer as we did to the optimal bonus above. Just because a ship gets a bonus to one specific module doesn't mean alternative modules are useless on it. We expect afterburners to be extremely useful on the Svipul, especially as part of dual prop and 10mn fits.
As for the concern about the placement of the MWD bloom bonus in defensive mode, we set up the defensive mode on the Svipul to create one of the largest differentiating factors between it and the Confessor. The MWD bonus is obviously not useful when scrammed, but it is a very powerful way to reduce damage when taking fire while unscrammed (the resilience of ships like the Talwar against longer-range damage provides a good example of the potential of MWD sig bloom bonuses). It is also important to note that the double resistance bonus provided by the Svipul's defensive mode, combined with the traditional Minmatar shield resist profile and a naturally smaller sig (and higher speed) than the Confessor combine to create a very durable ship even when brawling within scram range.


There is a problem when I can compare the Svipul to the Confessor by worthwhile bonuses and the Svipul comes up short. With the Confessor I can have any arrangement of MWD, AB, pulses and beams on the Confessor and all the bonuses are effective. The Armor and Sig bonus in defensive are effective no matter if I choose AB or MWD. The Prop mode is effective with AB or MWD. The Sharpshooter is effective with pulses or beams no matter what I choose. 6 solid bonuses effective with whatever common sense Confessor fit I can come up with.

On the Svipul if I pick an MWD AC Svipul, 1 of the 6 bonuses are already shot with the MWD sig bonus being useless on a brawler. If you're not going to give a falloff bonus to ACs to stay out of scram range then an MWD sig bonus is wasted if you choose to put on an MWD. If you choose to put an AB on the ship you have written off using the bonus, or if you dual prop you have sacrificed a mid to utilize the bonus. I know you don't believe that this ship will be shoehorned into an Arty only fit, but it is the only fit that would leverage all its bonuses, unlike the confessor where you have choice. Where you talk about you want something to make the ships bonuses different than the Confessor, don't hamstring the ship for the sake of making it distinct.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#267 - 2015-02-04 23:51:22 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
Welcome the Minmatar tactical destroyer, the Svipul! With the Tiamat release, published on February 17, we will see this next tactical destroyer that is sometimes quite vertical. We will also see a slight overhaul of small projectile weapons and the according Tech-2 ammunition.

Read CCP Fozzie's latest dev blog The Republic Strikes Back: The Svipul Tactical Destroyer and Projectile Changes in Tiamat to learn all about the Svipul, the weapon adjustment and the true meaning of being vertical!

I'm curious as to how the extra 500m of range (small autocannons) 4k (large autocannons) with 50% less dps is going to encourage anyone to use anything other than barrage?
Maybe if long range autocannon ammo had a falloff bonus instead of a useless optimal bonus it might amount to something. As long as long range ammo travels less distance than barrage and does up to 50% less dps - Barrage is gong to remain the ammo of choice. (slightly better tracking on faction ammo does not add up to 50% dps)
Add to the equation, most faction ammo costs up to double what T2 ammo does - Long range faction ammo = Less Range, Less DPS, Costs More = Pointless.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Heinrich Rotwang
Spectre Fleet Corporation
#268 - 2015-02-05 18:00:53 UTC
So the Confessor got bonuses that all make perfect sense and the Svipul suddenly is getting bonuses that don't make sense because bonuses don't always have to make sense because ... well, just because. I bet a lot of pilots are going to fly the Svipul over the Confessor, because choice of ship doesn't always have to make sense.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#269 - 2015-02-05 18:07:48 UTC
it's because falloff bonused autocannons on frigates and destroyers are just too OP. this is why you see rifters and wolves killing everything.
Acel Tokalov
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2015-02-05 21:10:44 UTC
Summary of this thread



Minmatar irrelevancy for the foreseeable future confirmed
Chalur Dallocort
SergalJerk
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#271 - 2015-02-05 21:23:55 UTC
Acel Tokalov wrote:
Summary of this thread



Minmatar irrelevancy for the foreseeable future confirmed


CCP proves time and time again that they simply do not understand how to properly balance projectile weapons and minmatar ships.
Meloni HELL
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#272 - 2015-02-06 23:00:28 UTC
Sadface. Was really excited about this one :(
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2015-02-09 18:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: James Zimmer
First off, thanks for the explanation Fozzie. I may still not like this ship, but it does make a little more sense. However, I think there are things you may be missing. The thing that makes the Confessor such an interesting ship is the fact that you can press a button, and it does different things that are all useful. With the Svipul, you have a button for each class of weapon, and then a go really fast button (which is generally useful for any ship).

The defensive mode will rarely be used with arty, because it will significantly decrease your firepower against all but the largest ships. Arty has terrible tracking, and switching from sharpshooter mode to defense mode gets rid of the tracking bonus. Hurting your tracking even more by zooming around with an MWD is just silly. In that sense, it is not similar to the Talwar at all, which can apply damage regardless of how it's flown. An arty Svipul will basically be a better arty Wolf. It will certainly be used, but it adds nothing new to the game. Giving sharpshooter mode the MWD bonus, a large optimal and falloff bonus and swapping the tracking bonus to defense mode would make both of these modes useful for an arty Svipul, just depending on the range of the engagement. However, something would have to be done to prevent these from becoming OP; maybe changing the damage bonus to a rate of fire bonus, to make 70km Svipul alpha fleets a little more difficult to achieve.

The sharpshooter mode will rarely, if ever, be used with an autocannon Svipul. If you're close enough to use your small autocannons, you're scrammed and webbed, or at least have to be prepared for that possibility. No one is going to speed tank your small autocannons after you scram and maybe web them too, so the tracking bonus of sharpshooter mode is pointless. I really can't fathom why you would ever use that mode for an autocannon Svipul. The defensive mode may be too perfect for a dual prop-mod tackle Svipul. The MWD sig bonus coupled with huge resists bonuses will allow you to get to range and survive lot better than any other tackler. An autocannon Svipul is basically a dramatically better Jaguar. It appears to me that it will easily be the best tackler in the game, and severely OP in that role. If we changed it in the way I mentioned before, you would basically get an interceptor-like role with sharpshooter mode, where you could orbit beyond scram/web range and still apply damage, or have an assault frigate-like mode in the defensive mode and orbit within scram/web range with enough tank to survive. Because the MWD sig bonus wouldn't be be piled on top of another damage reduction bonus, the ship would be more balanced and a bit less OP.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#274 - 2015-02-10 08:53:01 UTC
The enitre lineup is broken and ********, the confessor now and probably the others later on, they are way to good for their price, the fact that a unlinked t3d can kill all frigates, all dessies, most t1 cruisers, some t2 cruisers, some bcs is straight up broken. Either nerf the crap out of them or admit your mistake and delete them from the game.

Also acs need more then the option to not have to use barrage, they are straight up the worst weapons all around.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#275 - 2015-02-11 20:15:20 UTC
Paddy Finn wrote:
There is a problem when I can compare the Svipul to the Confessor by worthwhile bonuses and the Svipul comes up short. With the Confessor I can have any arrangement of MWD, AB, pulses and beams on the Confessor and all the bonuses are effective. The Armor and Sig bonus in defensive are effective no matter if I choose AB or MWD. The Prop mode is effective with AB or MWD. The Sharpshooter is effective with pulses or beams no matter what I choose. 6 solid bonuses effective with whatever common sense Confessor fit I can come up with.

On the Svipul if I pick an MWD AC Svipul, 1 of the 6 bonuses are already shot with the MWD sig bonus being useless on a brawler. If you're not going to give a falloff bonus to ACs to stay out of scram range then an MWD sig bonus is wasted if you choose to put on an MWD. If you choose to put an AB on the ship you have written off using the bonus, or if you dual prop you have sacrificed a mid to utilize the bonus. I know you don't believe that this ship will be shoehorned into an Arty only fit, but it is the only fit that would leverage all its bonuses, unlike the confessor where you have choice. Where you talk about you want something to make the ships bonuses different than the Confessor, don't hamstring the ship for the sake of making it distinct.


Not much to add. +1

To balance maybe they will swap optimal for falloff bonus on confessor ? After all, why not ? Not like bonuses have to make sense after all (sarcasm beacon).

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
Red Thought
Forever Winter
#276 - 2015-02-12 01:54:12 UTC
CCP....... I just wrote a forum post up on how good you guys were doing..... Now you destroy my hopes for my most anticipated change in 5 years. I am very sad ccp. I just tried out this ship on the test server and it seems mediocre at best. Slower than Sabre without propulsion mode. Equal tank to and less tank than the sabre depending on if you have defensive mode selected or not. and with sniper mode, you get a tracking bonus..... I don't recall every having tracking issues with small projectile. My weapons do a bit more damage but get no fall off bonus. Even with artillery equipped i get a miniscule optimal, 10km atm with level 2 due to the new mirror on the test server. On top of all of this it gets no bubble.... What is the point of this ship? Were you guys to scared of it being to op or what?
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#277 - 2015-02-12 04:58:14 UTC
haha the tears oh the tears..

Im just sitting back laughing my behind off at fozzie's reasoning..

but wait till he gets to the tactical gallente destroyer..

then and only then I shall join in on creating tears..

...........................and that is all
NicoRobin D
Space Mechanics
#278 - 2015-02-12 09:18:50 UTC
why it's so ugly... :((
Brigadir Black
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2015-02-12 10:20:39 UTC
To be honest I'm gonna trust CCP with this one. There was a debate on how useful the confessor was/wasn't going to be, then it came out, and its stupidly good.......

So I'm gonna trust that they know how important this is to everyone and that it will add something new to the game also, (I have ideas on a few fits myself)

Either that or they are just trolling us and on the 16th they are gonna say GOT YA in which case I might actually pee myself laughing.

Also kudos to those that posted actual constructive feedback rather than just 'IT'S OP' or 'NO CCP WHY' :)
Relic124
Abrupt Decay
Deteriorated
#280 - 2015-02-12 10:54:08 UTC
I understand the points you made, Fozzie, about a ship's strength not being directly tied to how many of its bonuses it easily makes use of. I also personally see the method behind the madness in making it not the easiest ship to fit properly, similar to its cousin, the Confessor. All good stuff.

With that in mind, I don't personally think it'd be a bad idea to simply swap the optimal range and tracking bonuses; tracking would get baked into the hull's per-level bonuses, and optimal would only come with Sniper mode. This would do a good job of allowing mid-range artillery fits to actually get something done when using the various close-range ammo types (Fusion, etc) while also allowing AC brawl fits to make use of classic dual-prop setups. This would also not make the ship an end-all in terms of brawling performance - without a falloff bonus it can still be countered effectively by controlling range. Of course, the actual values of the two bonuses would have to be normalized a bit, but in the end I think it would result in a more fun to fly - while still balanced - ship.