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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Battleships, and their use

First post
Author
X Gallentius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2015-01-20 18:12:36 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Battleships are like the Cape Buffalo. Poor at "Solo PvP" like the T2 HAC Lions, nor great at ambush attacks like the "alpha destroyer" crocodiles, but Cape Buffalo (like BS in Eve) are great in numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

(somebody posted this years ago, but it's a great vid that explains the role of Cape Buffalo in Eve)
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2015-01-20 18:16:47 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
(Disclaimer - Baltec is an ace spoon-user who don't need no knife).


His sharpened spoons are obviously broken.
Grezh
Hextrix Enterprise
#63 - 2015-01-20 19:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Grezh
Provence Tristram wrote:


Trying to compare the real world to EVE is an exercise in silliness, I'm sorry (though, to a degree, I am about to foolishly embark on it nonetheless).

On Earth, Battleships were only valuable as weapon systems so long as the range for tactical action was governed by the horizon (or, at best, the range of early on-ship radar units). In the age of the airplane and, later, the missile, battleships couldn't get close enough to their enemies to damage them. The concept, however, is still viable in EVE because A) there is no horizon, and B) gun-based weapon systems can lash out far enough to harm any enemy that might damage the BS.

The PROBLEM with battleships in EVE is that ships can, to employ the colloquialism, 'get under their guns.' In the real world, this is why BBs mounted secondary and tertiary armaments. Only HMS Dreadnought completely dispensed with the former (and had light numbers of the latter) -- a flaw that was quickly rectified in subsequent battleship classes.

In EVE, we have the 'big guns' on our battleships, but none of the secondary weapon systems that would make them truly devastating combatants for all they faced. I understand that the 'give and take' of having certain ships fulfill certain roles is a necessary component of the EVE universe (I disagree with it, however -- I think they should have taken the real-world approach of having different classes fulfill differing roles but each being potentially dangerous to another, or designed to engage opposing members of their own classes), but it feels like battleships, for the amount of skills and ISK necessary to fly them, suffer too much of a penalty against inferior opponents.

Cruisers, in particular, should just be obliterated by BSes -- even the tech 2s (and maybe even 3s). Frigates? Eh... they're as much fighter jets as they are equivalent to real-world frigates. But, again, how much damage would a lone Zero be able to do to the USS Alabama shooting every gun in her AA suite at it?

I digress, however, I am meandering. The point stands: battleships feel like they've lost their job. They were never ships 'of the line,' because there never was a line to form. They get knocked around inferior opponents, still get mauled by superior ones, and are expensive. I really feel like battleships -- maybe even just the tier 2s -- should have a couple of tier I slots devoted solely to cruiser-sized weapon systems so that they wouldn't have to special-fit just to take down a lone cheap-o boat.


In that vein of thought, would changing the large turret/missile bonus to a generic turret/missile bonus allowing for an effective mix of different sized gun/missiles fix the problem you see in bses?
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2015-01-20 23:25:50 UTC
It's certainly true that strafing WWII Battleships in an aircraft is a risky business. This is what Joe Foss (USMC Medal of Honor) had to say about it:

Quote:
Joe Foss Interview Page 9

Q. Do you feel that fighter strafing is worth while in making the torpedo and bombing attacks more effective?


A. There's a lot of pro and con on that because sometimes it will cost you about 50% of your fighters. You really lose the fighters on that deal. When you do get out and get out alive on a strafing attack on warships, you just aren't good, you're lucky.

Q. It does silence the anti-aircraft?

A. Yes, it does on destroyers and transports, but on cruisers and battleships the anti-aircraft keeps pegging away. The only thing that I silenced on the battleship was pompom guns. The anti-aircraft there was still plenty of that around - I got one hit right under my wing. I had an idea of turning one way but just happened to turn the other way. It hit where I would have been.
Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#65 - 2015-01-20 23:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
Grezh wrote:
In that vein of thought, would changing the large turret/missile bonus to a generic turret/missile bonus allowing for an effective mix of different sized gun/missiles fix the problem you see in bses?


Of course, but then they'd be undergunned when facing battleships Smile.

Again, this is the problem of the real-world clashing with game mechanics. In the real world, you designed a battleship to: A) stand in the line of battle and, generally, repulse shells of their own caliber, and B) mount a secondary armament that outclassed the main armament of many older heavy cruisers, and which, in the least, could shatter and light cruisers or destroyers that got too close. Plus, it wasn't like EVE -- the big guns on Earth could one-shot destroyers and light cruisers (and even battleships, if you got lucky). So a battleship could conceivably sink an entire squadron of cruisers without sustaining significant damage.

This didn't mean battleships weren't better off with escorts -- the advent of the submarine and then the airplane both demanded destroyer/light cruiser screens to deal with subs and fend off aircraft. But in the Second World War battleships routinely operated alone (Bismarck, for example) or with a low number of escorts. These were complete weapon systems -- they were designed to be able to reasonably fend off a number of threats.

Now, true, battleships alone (or a couple of them) couldn't handle concentrated aerial attacks on their own: HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales, sunk by land-based torpedo bombers, were in no-way equipped to fight off the force that sent them to the bottom. But in the heyday of battleships (the First World War), battlecruisers (which were not the same as most of EVE's BCs -- they were battleship-sized vessels with battleship-sized guns, they just traded armor for very high speed) often operated alone, in pairs, or as a single fighting force with just a light cruiser screen. And with the advent of the fast battleship late in the war, you increasingly saw this pattern in newer battleships, who, it was thought, would be fast enough to escape a superior foe, and deadly enough to sink a lesser one.

The thing about EVE is that, for gameplay reasons, we only deal with primary weapon systems. So our battleships mount no medium-caliber guns; mount no AA-equivalent weaponry. They are, generally speaking, naked, except against specific foes (a problem that is only enhanced by the concept of tracking). And all the weapon systems in EVE are like this -- they're all very much focused on single-objective design. So you have the issue of gameplay concessions bumping up against reality... because the reality would be that you would not design such flawed ships, so vulnerable to lesser foes, in a universe in which those lesser foes are common.

An ideal, pie-in-the-sky solution would be for every battleship to be forced to sacrifice a turret or two to mount cruiser or frigate-sized weapons (with better tracking) designed to deal with smaller enemies. But unless that was made a universal change (IE, everyone had no choice in the matter). And, unless it was a change that occurred throughout the classes (so, say, a battlecruiser was also forced to mount some smaller guns; cruisers; etc.), then it wouldn't really fix things, since battleships would immediately feel underpowered.

But, at that point, you are talking about a fundamental change to the entire structure of EVE's gameplay, which seems very unlikely.

So what is the realistic solution to the BS problem? Nerf T3 'catch all' cruisers, and potentially slightly improve the tracking on BS guns. A slightly more dynamic solution would be to figure out a way to encourage mixed-composition blobs -- so you didn't just see these 'all BC' groups; 'all cruiser' groups. If we're going to give these ships such significant flaws, we should simultaneously do more to encourage players to bring the big guns. There isn't enough justification in EVE right now as to why a blob of BC players right now should want to tote along BSes... or why they should fear a BS showing up.I think that's all you can do without re-writing the game.
Alaric Faelen
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2015-01-21 04:48:06 UTC
Battleships generally have a drone bay to deal with smaller targets. Drone based battleships really get the full range of damage by being able to field a weapon specific for every type of ship size in the form of Lights, Meds, and Heavy/Sentries. Battleships are basically one ship fleets in that sense. Sure your massive cannon may not hit frigates, but that flight of Warrior II's sure will.

Although, I agree with the sentiment that Eve has become 'World of Cruisers' lately. I blame this more on drones than on T3's tho. Since many cruisers can field 'battleship sized' weapons in the form of heavy/sentry drones- the only benefit of a BS is a bigger tank. But this is countered by the speed and maneuverability of a cruiser. Added to this the high resist profile of T2 ships like the Ishtar and the strength of Logi- the battleship has little going for it.

I'd like to see either ships not being able to field drones larger than their own class, or maybe move Logi to the battlecruiser class. The downside is that CCP seems to have become obsessed with smaller fleets and fights, which don't favor big hulls that need a large support fleet behind them. When you're forced into smaller fleets, you need ships to be more 'jack of all trades' instead of relying on supporting a fleet with individual specialist ships.

I really enjoyed the CFC 'Baltec' fleets of days past. Those really felt like a true battle group, with large ships of the line at it's core, but also requiring a host of smaller support vessels to be effective. Today though, it's Ishtars as far as the eye can see.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-01-21 05:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Alaric Faelen wrote:
Battleships generally have a drone bay to deal with smaller targets. Drone based battleships really get the full range of damage by being able to field a weapon specific for every type of ship size in the form of Lights, Meds, and Heavy/Sentries. Battleships are basically one ship fleets in that sense. Sure your massive cannon may not hit frigates, but that flight of Warrior II's sure will.

Although, I agree with the sentiment that Eve has become 'World of Cruisers' lately. I blame this more on drones than on T3's tho. Since many cruisers can field 'battleship sized' weapons in the form of heavy/sentry drones- the only benefit of a BS is a bigger tank. But this is countered by the speed and maneuverability of a cruiser. Added to this the high resist profile of T2 ships like the Ishtar and the strength of Logi- the battleship has little going for it.

I'd like to see either ships not being able to field drones larger than their own class, or maybe move Logi to the battlecruiser class. The downside is that CCP seems to have become obsessed with smaller fleets and fights, which don't favor big hulls that need a large support fleet behind them. When you're forced into smaller fleets, you need ships to be more 'jack of all trades' instead of relying on supporting a fleet with individual specialist ships.

I really enjoyed the CFC 'Baltec' fleets of days past. Those really felt like a true battle group, with large ships of the line at it's core, but also requiring a host of smaller support vessels to be effective. Today though, it's Ishtars as far as the eye can see.


Honestly, light drones are not that effective against frigates. They do about 100 dps on non-drone bonus hulls, which is not enough to break a frigates tank and are easily shot down, leaving you completely defenseless.

Take an Abaddon. pulses have even worse tracking then blasters, if even a t1 frigate gets in close its game over. I don't care how many webs or tracking enhancers you have, you will never hit them. You will launch your lights, he will shoot them down until you have none left and slowly but surely eat away at you, or hold you until his friends show up.

It is honestly not even worth undocking in a battleship. It is a complete joke that a billion dollar battleship is rendered totally helpless by the cheapest and most common ship in space. It's at the point that nobody is even afraid of them. They see the isk signs and go in for the kill. Something is just wrong with that.

The more I hear people go on about this "fleet support crap", the more it proves my point. When one ship needs an entire well balanced fleet of other ships in order to supposedly be the least bit effective, it loses the point of even fielding it in the first place. Especially when you can field a few frigates and cruisers which can do a better job for a crap ton less isk, and less risk.
Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2015-01-21 05:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
Alaric Faelen wrote:
I'd like to see either ships not being able to field drones larger than their own class,


Would totally support this...

Quote:

The downside is that CCP seems to have become obsessed with smaller fleets and fights, which don't favor big hulls that need a large support fleet behind them.


You can still encourage the presence of battleships in smaller fleets and fights. What CCP needs to do is examine real-world battlegroups (not fleets, but groups) based around the presence of a single carrier, and a small circle of support ships and submarines. Most battlegroups are damned small, but everyone fulfills a role, and every role is important, from logistics, to point defense, to primary offense. And, what's more, there were American battlegroups built around battleships as recently as the 1990s (though they were at their apex in WWII).

I don't mind the change to small-fleet warfare per se, but I don't think anyone -- and especially not CCP -- should accept a status quo that trivializes arguably the most iconic fighting unit in the game. BSes should be the bread-and-butter units compromising the core of any fleet or force, and even the smallest flight of ships should feel wrong without the presence of one.

Amanda Guido wrote:
It is honestly not even worth undocking in a battleship. It is a complete joke that a billion dollar battleship is rendered ineffective by the cheapest and most common ship in space. It's at the point that nobody is even afraid of them. They see the isk signs and go in for the kill. Something is just wrong with that.


Bingo.
Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#69 - 2015-01-21 05:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
I just had to post this since we are talking so much about real-world battleships. THE POWER! (Note the escorting cruisers, destroyers and frigate).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#70 - 2015-01-21 05:22:28 UTC
Grezh wrote:


In that vein of thought, would changing the large turret/missile bonus to a generic turret/missile bonus allowing for an effective mix of different sized gun/missiles fix the problem you see in bses?


For the love of god do not do this.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2015-01-21 05:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Point is, Battleships already have the deck stacked against them. They are horridly slow, warp at the speed of a sprinting snail, take forever to lock anything, align at the speed of a skyscraper. So, it's obvious that they can't dictate a fight, or range, or anything else for that matter. At least let them do the one thing their name suggests they should be good at well, COMBAT.

As of right now their DPS can be matched by many cruisers (geckos anyone), while still being totally out maneuvered, better lock speed, warp speed, TRACKING, etc. The only thing they seem to do well is tank, but again, cruisers and frigates can use their speed to tank a **** ton of damage. So, what exactly warrants all that isk and risk to undock in one???
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2015-01-21 06:05:44 UTC
The solution in my opinion is drones. Ok, fine. My guns suck at small targets. So what do I have as a backup. Drones! But 100 dps is a joke! With max drone skills with hob 2s you are right under 100 dps. That's not gonna do a damn thing to an active tanked frig. If they would make light drones more effective, problem solved
Shelom Severasse
Drunken Ravagers
#73 - 2015-01-21 11:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Shelom Severasse
are battleships kind of in a sore spot right now? sure.

but if you just say "moar damage application" or "moar utility" to the point that a solo BS can actually fight off a small frig gang effectively, then why would anyone EVER fly something smaller than a BS?

you would completely remove pvp in smaller hulls because why fly a frig when you can fly a BS that can kill everything.

should BSs be looked at? im not against it, but they most certainly do NOT need an all around buff.

EDIT: grammar, spelling, etc
Shelom Severasse
Drunken Ravagers
#74 - 2015-01-21 11:22:17 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
The solution in my opinion is drones. Ok, fine. My guns suck at small targets. So what do I have as a backup. Drones! But 100 dps is a joke! With max drone skills with hob 2s you are right under 100 dps. That's not gonna do a damn thing to an active tanked frig. If they would make light drones more effective, problem solved

a full flight of light drones is a huge problem for frigs dude. even some dessies. only frigs that can tank 99 dps non stop are ships like the hawk or dual rep + cap booster incursus. and their tank only lasts while they have cap boosters.
Shelom Severasse
Drunken Ravagers
#75 - 2015-01-21 11:27:51 UTC
also, if you fit 1b isk BSs on the reg, why are you complaining? you obviously have the isk to burn. most t2 fit non faction hulls come in at about 250m
Catalytic morphisis
Space Mutts
Space-Mutts
#76 - 2015-01-21 11:48:44 UTC
It all comes in context really, I'll agree that currently BS's are in a bit of a downward slide, However you can still, Given circumstance, Piloting skill (Both applied to yourself and the enemy) and genereal fits, Several BS's can still take a fight vs a small frigate gang and come above this, Be it through Cap Warfare, Webbing bonus' and insane damage, Or High amounts of tank and Drone damage.

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er

Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#77 - 2015-01-21 12:44:20 UTC
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
It all comes in context really, I'll agree that currently BS's are in a bit of a downward slide, However you can still, Given circumstance, Piloting skill (Both applied to yourself and the enemy) and genereal fits, Several BS's can still take a fight vs a small frigate gang and come above this, Be it through Cap Warfare, Webbing bonus' and insane damage, Or High amounts of tank and Drone damage.


CCP has some smart people working there. I believe they could resolve this problem without overturning the cart, or even peeing in someone else's cheerios. I think we can all agree that some slight tweaking would likely bring battleships back in line, and I don't believe anyone here is asking for them to metamorphose into invincible, catch-all fighting machines that immediately render all other vessels obsolete.

The problem we are seeing with battleships is the same problem that lead to CCP dramatically altering the less powerful combat vessels into support ships: that underutilized hulls don't do anyone any good just sitting there. Here, we have an entire class (and, whats more, I would argue the most iconic of them all) that for many skilled players is simply collecting dust in their hangers because the return just isn't worth the risk.

Changes are required. That's all there is to it.
Catalytic morphisis
Space Mutts
Space-Mutts
#78 - 2015-01-21 13:01:28 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
It all comes in context really, I'll agree that currently BS's are in a bit of a downward slide, However you can still, Given circumstance, Piloting skill (Both applied to yourself and the enemy) and genereal fits, Several BS's can still take a fight vs a small frigate gang and come above this, Be it through Cap Warfare, Webbing bonus' and insane damage, Or High amounts of tank and Drone damage.


CCP has some smart people working there. I believe they could resolve this problem without overturning the cart, or even peeing in someone else's cheerios. I think we can all agree that some slight tweaking would likely bring battleships back in line, and I don't believe anyone here is asking for them to metamorphose into invincible, catch-all fighting machines that immediately render all other vessels obsolete.

The problem we are seeing with battleships is the same problem that lead to CCP dramatically altering the less powerful combat vessels into support ships: that underutilized hulls don't do anyone any good just sitting there. Here, we have an entire class (and, whats more, I would argue the most iconic of them all) that for many skilled players is simply collecting dust in their hangers because the return just isn't worth the risk.

Changes are required. That's all there is to it.


I agree there are changes required, Please don't be fooled that I'm saying Battleships are already powerful enough, I am just stating that they do infact, Contrary to popular belief, Have uses, which have been proven by several people who fly these solo with relative success.

Granted only a few of the class, Such as the Hyperion or the Vindicator, which I know is a faction battleship, Are viable in a lot of cases recently, However to say the class is completely useless is just not accurate

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er

Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#79 - 2015-01-21 13:32:26 UTC
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
Provence Tristram wrote:
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
It all comes in context really, I'll agree that currently BS's are in a bit of a downward slide, However you can still, Given circumstance, Piloting skill (Both applied to yourself and the enemy) and genereal fits, Several BS's can still take a fight vs a small frigate gang and come above this, Be it through Cap Warfare, Webbing bonus' and insane damage, Or High amounts of tank and Drone damage.


CCP has some smart people working there. I believe they could resolve this problem without overturning the cart, or even peeing in someone else's cheerios. I think we can all agree that some slight tweaking would likely bring battleships back in line, and I don't believe anyone here is asking for them to metamorphose into invincible, catch-all fighting machines that immediately render all other vessels obsolete.

The problem we are seeing with battleships is the same problem that lead to CCP dramatically altering the less powerful combat vessels into support ships: that underutilized hulls don't do anyone any good just sitting there. Here, we have an entire class (and, whats more, I would argue the most iconic of them all) that for many skilled players is simply collecting dust in their hangers because the return just isn't worth the risk.

Changes are required. That's all there is to it.


I agree there are changes required, Please don't be fooled that I'm saying Battleships are already powerful enough, I am just stating that they do infact, Contrary to popular belief, Have uses, which have been proven by several people who fly these solo with relative success.

Granted only a few of the class, Such as the Hyperion or the Vindicator, which I know is a faction battleship, Are viable in a lot of cases recently, However to say the class is completely useless is just not accurate


You're right, they're not entirely useless. But I do think it's a shame that a number of the hulls are rightly-regarded as PvE-only, when this is something that CCP has been trying to do away with concerning the other classes.
Catalytic morphisis
Space Mutts
Space-Mutts
#80 - 2015-01-21 14:34:27 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
Provence Tristram wrote:
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
It all comes in context really, I'll agree that currently BS's are in a bit of a downward slide, However you can still, Given circumstance, Piloting skill (Both applied to yourself and the enemy) and genereal fits, Several BS's can still take a fight vs a small frigate gang and come above this, Be it through Cap Warfare, Webbing bonus' and insane damage, Or High amounts of tank and Drone damage.


CCP has some smart people working there. I believe they could resolve this problem without overturning the cart, or even peeing in someone else's cheerios. I think we can all agree that some slight tweaking would likely bring battleships back in line, and I don't believe anyone here is asking for them to metamorphose into invincible, catch-all fighting machines that immediately render all other vessels obsolete.

The problem we are seeing with battleships is the same problem that lead to CCP dramatically altering the less powerful combat vessels into support ships: that underutilized hulls don't do anyone any good just sitting there. Here, we have an entire class (and, whats more, I would argue the most iconic of them all) that for many skilled players is simply collecting dust in their hangers because the return just isn't worth the risk.

Changes are required. That's all there is to it.


I agree there are changes required, Please don't be fooled that I'm saying Battleships are already powerful enough, I am just stating that they do infact, Contrary to popular belief, Have uses, which have been proven by several people who fly these solo with relative success.

Granted only a few of the class, Such as the Hyperion or the Vindicator, which I know is a faction battleship, Are viable in a lot of cases recently, However to say the class is completely useless is just not accurate


You're right, they're not entirely useless. But I do think it's a shame that a number of the hulls are rightly-regarded as PvE-only, when this is something that CCP has been trying to do away with concerning the other classes.


I'll agree with that, Too much PvE not enough PvP when it comes to battleships.

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er