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Warp Assist Module
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Black Pedro
Mine.
#61 - 2015-01-20 14:26:15 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I agree it makes it harder, but you're talking about multiple people operating in a pretty organised manner - it should be harder to kill them than some afk, cargo expanded badfit ship.

It already is. A single scout/webber makes a freighter very difficult to catch.

A tanked freighter escorted by a small logi/ECM fleet is essentially impossible to gank.

CCP Falcon wrote:
Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?

CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive.

If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.

Big smile

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2015-01-20 14:33:18 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Not forever no, but you can hold them until concord rock up to shoot people.

I'm leaning towards removing the warp core strength on this mod to be clear. I dont think we need that and that a single point should be adequate.


ed: you bump so you can have multiple cracks at the same target/reduce the burden of coordination on the attackers. Organised defenders having a good counterplay to this is healthy, imo.


Thats not how freighter ganking works.

We already have multiple highly effective counters to freighter ganking, we do not need a no effort I win mod.
Annette Nolen
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2015-01-20 15:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Annette Nolen
Nolak Ataru wrote:
I've been a part of multiple freighter ganks, and we've NEVER bumped a freighter in a direction other than the one it's currently sailing at 1km/s. Stop asking CCP to change something that has a obvious solution/counter. This is not Hello Kitty Online.


Crumplecorn wrote:
I am intrigued by this idea that freighters, when bumped, start to randomly change direction mid-flight, making frigate alignment impossible.


Freighters, when bumped, no longer POINT in the direction you are traveling. This makes figuring out the actual direction of travel sufficiently difficult, at least as it applies to getting a warp out in place. Further compounded by the fact that only bad bumpers keep knocking you in the same direction, especially after they've watched your inty fly off in that direction.

(EDIT: Just to clarify... ever entered warp while your cap ship is pointed sideways? Just like that.)

That's not even considering what happens once you get more than one bumper involved.

Stop pinning your sole counterargument on manually piloting a freighter in a 10 year old submarine simulation running at 1 tick a second.

Black Pedro wrote:
A single scout/webber makes a freighter very difficult to catch. A tanked freighter escorted by a small logi/ECM fleet is essentially impossible to gank.


Again, for emphasis... this is a bumping thread, not a ganking thread (well, a thread about capital ship bumping and general warp counters). More to the point, for every freighter I've had ganked there have been probably 20+ instances of being bumped that didn't result in a gank. Just hours of wasted time that end only once the bumper gets bored no matter what tricks people in this thread seem to think are such great counters. There are a lot of bored people in Mach's out there willing to waste a lot of time who have no interest in ganking anything.

In fact of the few times I've escaped bumping through manual piloting tricks, on at least one occasion the bumper's managed to figure out where I went, bump me off the dock (since I did not have an instadock BM), and then, in that case, ultimately gank me anyway. And you know what? I was 100% fine with that. It was fun, even. I was outplayed and GF's all around. That experience is one of the reasons I'm suggesting this module, and one of the reasons I know this module is well balanced as described.

Watching JFs get bumped and popped on a regular basis in highsec even though they literally have an instant GTFO IWIN button completely discredits any claims in this thread that this module would suddenly be the end or even the decline of freighter ganking in highsec.

baltec1 wrote:
You cannot identify assist ships on busy gates in high sec


Which is why this suggestion includes cyno-like pinning of the assist ship, a 30 to 60s cycle time, and what I can only assume would ultimately be a pretty noticeable visual effect too. Pretty sure even gankers could figure that one out.

baltec1 wrote:
No you arn't, your plan calls for something that cannot possibly be countered.


Really? You guys are that dependent on 100% bumping that you couldn't figure out how to gank an immobile assist ship within 30s? Or even just ensure that the target is bumped out of the 10k range before that? Or, BOB forbid the warp actually occurs once in a while, chase down the target and lock them down again? Yeah, you're right... my module is an uncounterable death knell for gankers!

Clearly I spend most of my time dealing with a much more professional and skilled set of bumpers and gankers than you guys. Can we get some of them to comment in this thread please? I'm losing faith in Bat Country's reputation.
Annette Nolen
Perkone
Caldari State
#64 - 2015-01-20 15:55:46 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
But the reality is that freighter ganking happens so rarely. I just checked, and even Red Frog, the OP's corp, seems to think so. They quoted me a 5.5M ISK fee for a 4 jump trip through Uedama for 1B worth of goods.


For the record, RFF prices are averaged across all of our shipping across all of highsec. You can infer precisely nothing about the risk for that specific trip from the quoted price. (ad)Which is what makes RFF such an awesome service... consistent, predictable, flat pricing per jump anywhere in highsec, with consistent turn around times too. Absolutely no need to worry about cost variability whether you are shipping from Jita or the back waters of New Eden.(/ad)
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#65 - 2015-01-20 16:32:19 UTC
Annette Nolen wrote:
Freighters, when bumped, no longer POINT in the direction you are traveling. This makes figuring out the actual direction of travel sufficiently difficult, at least as it applies to getting a warp out in place.
If you cannot figure out which way your ship is moving, the solution is not to add a module to the game.

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Black Pedro
Mine.
#66 - 2015-01-20 16:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Annette Nolen wrote:
Again, for emphasis... this is a bumping thread, not a ganking thread (well, a thread about capital ship bumping and general warp counters).


Bumping is a requirement for ganking freighters in highsec.

Nerfing bumping will make ganking harder.

Therefore there will be less freighter ganking in highsec.

Do we really need less freighter ganking in highsec?

Annette Nolen wrote:
Watching JFs get bumped and popped on a regular basis in highsec even though they literally have an instant GTFO IWIN button completely discredits any claims in this thread that this module would suddenly be the end or even the decline of freighter ganking in highsec.

This module clearly increases safety for freighter pilots in highsec. Perhaps there will still be enough AFK freighters for the very few number of gankers that still ply this trade, or perhaps there will not be, I don't know. But certainly, you, and other active pilots will be much safer and able to haul much larger amounts of cargo in safety, and have even less reason to ever use any other ship.

Does this game really need yet another module that increases the safety of an incredibly safe profession and ship already?

You want to haul things without the fear of bumping? Use a jump freighter, or DST. Your argument for the need of this module is like claiming you need a new module for your Battleship because that Assault Frigate was able to get under your guns and destroy you. The correct answer is not more modules, but to either fly a different ship/use different tactics or bring some friends.

Freighters are vulnerable to bumping as all capital ships have been since the beginning of this game. You should adjust your behaviour to this reality instead of coming to the forums and arguing for changes to the game that primarily benefit you.

Annette Nolen wrote:
For the record, RFF prices are averaged across all of our shipping across all of highsec. You can infer precisely nothing about the risk for that specific trip from the quoted price.
We both know there is essentially zero risk to freighters from gankers outside Niarja, Uedama, and the trade hubs. Your own 2013 data show that you completed over 99.8% of your contracts (failed 260 out of 210,388 and probably not all of those were ganks). And yet here you are, asking for a new module to make you even safer.

How safe do you want freighters to be in highsec?

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#67 - 2015-01-20 16:48:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Annette Nolen wrote:


You don't have a 90 degree margin of error


You don't need that.



Annette Nolen wrote:

and I've watched my freighter snap to new alignments that extreme routinely during a bump. When you have burned 200km in one direction only to find that, in fact, your freighter was pointing 75 degrees off to the left the whole time and the client JUST NOW decides to inform you of that fact, well, that's not gameplay nor is that a reliable or even defensible counter to bumping.


This is tosh. Not only would the client not suffer from that much lag but bumping of freighters is to get the ship away from the gate guns. Bumping a ship from multiple directions does not work and is highly likely to result in the target simply warping off to a celestial.

Annette Nolen wrote:

Your other argument is, once again, avoidance, not a counter.


Yes, its a counter, you stop it from happening in the first place.

Annette Nolen wrote:

And your final counter is "more bumping", which sounds eerily like "the only counter to supers is more supers". Funnily enough, ALSO a gameplay state no one is particularly happy with :)


Difference here is that there is multiple counters to bumping and ganking in general.

Another tactic is to suicide a nub ship into the freighter to pre spawn concord.


Why are you messing with Baltec1's challenging form of pvp. I mean heck, ganking a freighter is tough enough already. The preps are massive.

1. Pick freighter
2. Bump it
3. Bring proper DPS (based on ship type, system security level and some other easy inputs)
4. Profit

This collosal task is already difficult (may I go so far as to say maybe too difficult). These freighters that are trying to move stuff across eve already have it too easy. If anything we should make it easier to gank freighters (r-click - pick DESTROY FRIEGHTER from menu would be the next step toward easier)
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#68 - 2015-01-20 17:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
baltec1 wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Not forever no, but you can hold them until concord rock up to shoot people.

I'm leaning towards removing the warp core strength on this mod to be clear. I dont think we need that and that a single point should be adequate.


ed: you bump so you can have multiple cracks at the same target/reduce the burden of coordination on the attackers. Organised defenders having a good counterplay to this is healthy, imo.


Thats not how freighter ganking works.

We already have multiple highly effective counters to freighter ganking, we do not need a no effort I win mod.


I think you should just list the multiple highly effective methods here and now and we'll be able to put this whole misconception to bed.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2015-01-20 17:34:49 UTC
Really, a video is preferred. From both sides of this fence.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#70 - 2015-01-20 18:26:30 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Not forever no, but you can hold them until concord rock up to shoot people.

I'm leaning towards removing the warp core strength on this mod to be clear. I dont think we need that and that a single point should be adequate.


ed: you bump so you can have multiple cracks at the same target/reduce the burden of coordination on the attackers. Organised defenders having a good counterplay to this is healthy, imo.


Thats not how freighter ganking works.

We already have multiple highly effective counters to freighter ganking, we do not need a no effort I win mod.


I think you should just list the multiple highly effective methods here and now and we'll be able to put this whole misconception to bed.


We have several times now. OP and their ilk don't like them because they require "effort".
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2015-01-20 19:05:23 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Annette Nolen wrote:
Freighters, when bumped, no longer POINT in the direction you are traveling. This makes figuring out the actual direction of travel sufficiently difficult, at least as it applies to getting a warp out in place.
If you cannot figure out which way your ship is moving, the solution is not to add a module to the game.

Not empty quoting. But then again, since CCP deigned to ignore us regarding the broadcast ban affecting nothing, who's to say they won't listen to the gankers?
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#72 - 2015-01-21 02:35:46 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
If you cannot figure out which way your ship is moving, the solution is not to add a module to the game.

Just curious and this goes to posting useful information in a topic.

The direction you are facing is useless when you are being bumped.
The velocity indicator is useless as it only tells you speed not direction.
Stars and planets are worthless as they are to far away to be a valid reference at the low rates of speed involved.
You cannot rely on any ships in the area as a reference as you have no way of knowing if they are stationary or moving, unless of course they are an alt or friend of yours.
Gates could be a possible source of determining movement direction however their size and your slow movement speeds would make that extremely difficult.
We do not have the artificial horizons and other instruments currently used in real aircraft that could give us this information.
So with all of this perhaps you can explain to all of us just precisely what YOU use to determine speed and direction at any moment when you are being actively bumped around?
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2015-01-21 03:19:27 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
If you cannot figure out which way your ship is moving, the solution is not to add a module to the game.

Just curious and this goes to posting useful information in a topic.

The direction you are facing is useless when you are being bumped.
The velocity indicator is useless as it only tells you speed not direction.
Stars and planets are worthless as they are to far away to be a valid reference at the low rates of speed involved.
You cannot rely on any ships in the area as a reference as you have no way of knowing if they are stationary or moving, unless of course they are an alt or friend of yours.
Gates could be a possible source of determining movement direction however their size and your slow movement speeds would make that extremely difficult.
We do not have the artificial horizons and other instruments currently used in real aircraft that could give us this information.
So with all of this perhaps you can explain to all of us just precisely what YOU use to determine speed and direction at any moment when you are being actively bumped around?


Tab to inty / dram pilot. Left click on enemy ship. Click "Look at". Swivel camera so your freighter (F) is in line with the Macharial (M). Double click in space such that the point you are manually piloting is in line with ray FM.
Krops Vont
#74 - 2015-01-21 06:32:13 UTC
My friend came across this. The classic, I'll gank you if you don't pay me 300mil. Just have the scout burn in the alignment your freighter is being bumped. Works every time like a charm.

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Anthar Thebess
#75 - 2015-01-21 07:46:08 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Because, naturally, no-one EVER brings a dictor or a hictor to a capital kill.....

Jesus christ if that actually worked dont you think a carrier would just refit to stabs and YOLO itself out trolling local all the while? Oddly, no-one ever does that...you know why? Because people use heavy/dictors and all the warp strength in the world doesn't matter an iota.


Usually you have them at the beginning of the roam, but they can die.
Quite often first , and main tackle on carriers is being done by interceptor, and sabre drop a bubble only to catch the pod.

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Sigras
Conglomo
#76 - 2015-01-21 08:39:11 UTC
Why do you not simply log off? once you're logged off there is nothing they can do to prevent you from disappearing in 60 seconds unless you already have a combat flag, but bumping doesnt give a combat flag.

Basically unless they suicide a ship into you at the start, they never have a chance.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#77 - 2015-01-21 13:24:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Not forever no, but you can hold them until concord rock up to shoot people.

I'm leaning towards removing the warp core strength on this mod to be clear. I dont think we need that and that a single point should be adequate.


ed: you bump so you can have multiple cracks at the same target/reduce the burden of coordination on the attackers. Organised defenders having a good counterplay to this is healthy, imo.


Thats not how freighter ganking works.

We already have multiple highly effective counters to freighter ganking, we do not need a no effort I win mod.


I think you should just list the multiple highly effective methods here and now and we'll be able to put this whole misconception to bed.


We have several times now. OP and their ilk don't like them because they require "effort".


Just post a concise list so we can put this to bed. To be clear - put a concisel list together of the highly effective methods. It's a simple request. If you can't do it, then I think I may be on to something. Please... teach me.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2015-01-21 15:59:26 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Why do you not simply log off? once you're logged off there is nothing they can do to prevent you from disappearing in 60 seconds unless you already have a combat flag, but bumping doesnt give a combat flag.

Basically unless they suicide a ship into you at the start, they never have a chance.


Disposable alt in a ibis suicides. Doesn't cost too much.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#79 - 2015-01-21 16:15:39 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Why do you not simply log off? once you're logged off there is nothing they can do to prevent you from disappearing in 60 seconds unless you already have a combat flag, but bumping doesnt give a combat flag.

Basically unless they suicide a ship into you at the start, they never have a chance.


Disposable alt in a ibis suicides. Doesn't cost too much.


The point of this thread (and the eve reality of the matter) - it's just too darn easy to suicide gank a capital hauler (freighter/jump freighter) with cheap crap ships in empire. There isn't really a counter once you are sellected. The only folks that escape are the instnaces where the gankers mess up.

Anyone having reasonable game experience knows this. CCP just added some ability to tank said frieghters, but that was a poor fix. It just changes the math a bit by raisubg the losses on the ganking side from miniscule to tiny. 3 tanked low slots doesn't give you any more probablility of escape, it just makes other non tanked freighter kills better math for the gankers.

This thread is an attempt to give freighter pilots a reasonable chance to get away. Gankers don't like that. They like to execute simple math and profit.

You can assume I have an alt that has at times ganks freighters. You can assume that it is pathetically easy. You need to understand that all the provided example methods for freighter pilots to get away are complete garbage.

I like eve because it's a difficult game. Currently freighter ganking has a zero difficulty rating and is not in line with my liking. I support giving a freighter pilots some reasonable ability to counter my attempt to suicide gank them. I don't know if this is it, but just adding a few EHP to a freighter hull isn't the answer.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#80 - 2015-01-21 17:14:25 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
The point of this thread (and the eve reality of the matter) - it's just too darn easy to suicide gank a capital hauler (freighter/jump freighter) with cheap crap ships in empire. There isn't really a counter once you are sellected. The only folks that escape are the instnaces where the gankers mess up.

As you say this is a fundamental issue with Eve itself. Blobbing your opponent with numerous small ships is an effective strategy because of the way the game is designed. 50 pilots flying practically anything will beat one or a couple pilots flying the most expensive ships in the game in any space. That is Eve.

Freighters do have ways to escape (although they all require friends) with a scout to warp to or a logi support fleet for defense (and Jump Freighters, well they have a 100% effective escape mechanism - the jump drive), but more importantly they have plenty of ways to avoid being caught in the first place. Why should freighters be able to AFK along with no effort on the part of the pilot, be caught by a bumper, and then allowed to escape without help when the pilot notices he is trapped after his YouTube video has finished? And even more to the point, there are several other ship choices to haul stuff that are not susceptible to bumping so using a freighter is not mandatory for anything you do in Eve.

Being caught out in a freighter without support by a bumper is just like catching an unsupported ratting carrier. Once caught, you better get your friends there fast or it is just a matter of time before you are dead. And if you want to play it safe, have your friends there to begin with.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
You can assume I have an alt that has at times ganks freighters. You can assume that it is pathetically easy.
Of course, tagging along and providing DPS to a freighter gank fleet is pathetically easy. You just watch the fleet as it warps and wait until you are told to press 'F1' pretty much like any large nullsec battle. Organizing, gathering enough pilots and then executing the gank of a fleet of -10 gankers in the face of opposition is non-trivial. There are not that many FC's that can do it successfully - just look at how few ganks of freighters there actually are in highsec. Bumping itself also require some practice and much patience.

If it was as easy as you are making it out to be there should be dozens of freighters being killed all over highsec by random pirates. But if you look at the killboards you will see that many days there are zero ganks of freighters, and the ones that happen are in fact from the same 2-3 groups because it is in fact rather difficult.

From the numbers, freighter ganking is not a problem in highsec. In fact, freighters themselves so safe that statistically you could autopilot your whole career and never be caught by a bumper/ganker depending where you live. This is why most freighter pilots don't bother with escorts and now think they are entitled to use freighters as jumbo, solo, risk-free AFK haulers. As CCP Falcon has said, this is not actually the intention of the game designers.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?