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Warfare & Tactics

 
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CSM FW- Community Representative Discussion

Author
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#41 - 2015-02-13 16:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
Veskrashen wrote:
Active FW pilots would be a lot better served, IMO, but taking the time for a long critical look at the state of FW as a whole. How it works internally, how it's impacted by outside forces, how it fits into the larger lowsec environment, and how it impacts other area of the game.

For example, I think we need to take a look at the following:

1. Impact of plexing alts - both on warzone control, cross-faction plexing, and the isk/hr issues.
2. Impact of the current tier system - massive disparity in rewards, impacts on WZ control and other areas of space, the collective action problem
3. FW missions - isk/hr, ease of completion, how those impact other areas

Those things more than anything are what needs to get looked at. The biggest issues IMO stem from how easy it is to make a boatload of isk with minimal investment, which turns FW into an ATM for folks all over New Eden. Balance that out, and things change for the better.


I agree with smoothing out the Tier system, fixing the FW mission balance, and splitting up Allied militia (to eliminate overview nonsense that people use to dunk newbs, as well as to fix cross plexing).

However, don't forget standing repair on your list of issues though. Many people promote FW to new players but don't mention the absolutely unholy faction grind if they ever want to leave and have access to certain parts of space.

For the hard core FW player that might not matter because they have alts for highsec and don't ever plan on leaving. But for making it an accessible part of the game for new players, or casual players, it is a huge deal.

EDIT: LP taxation would have a large impact across much of space as well. Think of all those level 5 mission runners! :p
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-02-13 19:58:22 UTC
DJ Funkybacon ostracized himself too much with the last CSM and CCP to be effective in my opinion.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#43 - 2015-02-13 20:03:28 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
DJ Funkybacon ostracized himself too much with the last CSM and CCP to be effective in my opinion.


I don't even think he is running.
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#44 - 2015-02-13 21:55:42 UTC
Guys.

Grimwood. For. CSM.

AMIRITE?

On a serious note, I see a lot of talk about what people think is at issue in the WZ and I have seen some odd suggestions come out of the woodwork.

Veskrashen wrote:
For example, I think we need to take a look at the following:

1. Impact of plexing alts - both on warzone control, cross-faction plexing, and the isk/hr issues.
2. Impact of the current tier system - massive disparity in rewards, impacts on WZ control and other areas of space, the collective action problem
3. FW missions - isk/hr, ease of completion, how those impact other areas

Those things more than anything are what needs to get looked at. The biggest issues IMO stem from how easy it is to make a boatload of isk with minimal investment, which turns FW into an ATM for folks all over New Eden. Balance that out, and things change for the better.


I agree with Veskrashen on thees points and also think a way to tax LP would be nice.

Now realistically the only reason I am on board with the movement of "fix FW missions" is because I am told by so many people how broken it is. I do not fly FW missions, all my LP comes from combat and plexing as it does for many of the pilots I fly with (perhaps an interesting insight into why we are always so poor) so I do not have any personal experience in FW missioning. I would prefer to see something like the burner missions used as FW missions, mostly because I think that sounds like an interesting thing you and a small gang of dudes could do while roaming around space looking for frogs to explode. As it stands, my issue with missions (in general) is that they are not group experiences and thus (for me) not fun (which explains why I don't do them, hurr durr)

All that being said, complains like these are nothing new. How much of an impact does a CSM rep have to push for these changes? Does it matter if the CSM rep is themselves actively involved in FW or is it more important that they have a dialogue with the FW community? I am open to looking at any candidate who appears to be reasonable and willing to talk to me and people like me about things I would like pushed up to CCP attention, which is what has made this thread very handy for me.

I would also strongly suggest that if you want an active and dedicated FW pilot on CSMX then you too push for Grimwood as CSM! Even if that fool doesn't run, write his name in on the ballot and get him on a plane to shout at CCP!

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-02-14 00:23:39 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
Now realistically the only reason I am on board with the movement of "fix FW missions" is because I am told by so many people how broken it is.

The issues with missions are as follows:

1. Due to rewards being tied to Tier, the LP/mission gets ridiculous. With decent skills, you get 30k-ish LP for a L4 mission at Tier 2. This sets your payouts, per mission, at something like the following:

- Tier 1: 15k LP
- Tier 2: 30k LP
- Tier 3: 52.5k LP
- Tier 4: 75k LP
- Tier 5: 90k LP

2. The missions are (for the most part) assassination style, with the objective to get in and blow up either I) 3-6 industrials, II) 1 battleship, or III) a structure. This requires about 350ish DPS to break the tank of the battleships.

3. The large size of the targets means that Stealth Bombers can apply full DPS out to max range. With decent skills and properly rigged, a Bomber can DPS down the target and not be in any danger whatsoever of taking damage from the NPCs.

4. Combining 2 and 3 above, you can therefore complete each mission in about 3-5 minutes at most.

5. Because of this, you can easily complete 5+ L4 missions per hour, sometimes as many as 8 if you're good and get lucky with the mission spawn locations. This puts your hourly income, with a throwaway toon in a bomber, at about 375k LP/hour minimum at Tier 4.

This means that running FW missions solo in a bomber at high tier is about 3-4x as lucrative as running highsec incursions. Pilots doing this don't have to do anything at all other than be in the appropriate militia and have the appropriate corporate or faction standings. You don't have to contribute to the war effort, run plexes, or anything like that at all.

How to fix this? Well for one thing the current state of play rests in large part on the fact that Bombers can avoid pretty much all damage in the missions with minimal effort. Adding 1-2 scrambling / webbing elite frigates to each mission would stop that practice in a heartbeat. Evening out the Tiers and significantly lowering the top end maximum reward would also massively change the incentive structure. That Tier 4-5 mission payout is why you see such massive swings in the southern warzone.

Quote:
All that being said, complains like these are nothing new. How much of an impact does a CSM rep have to push for these changes? Does it matter if the CSM rep is themselves actively involved in FW or is it more important that they have a dialogue with the FW community? I am open to looking at any candidate who appears to be reasonable and willing to talk to me and people like me about things I would like pushed up to CCP attention, which is what has made this thread very handy for me.

CCP is probably very aware of these issues, but the solutions are predicated on them getting some new tools (i.e. missions can't be adjusted until their new content tools are ready) and development time (they need to carve out time/space to think hard on the current Tier system and its impacts, for example). From the Winter minutes we know that the issue of LP taxes was raised, and it's not technically possible for CCP to code at the moment without totally reworking the whole mission reward system as a whole. Given that we've had several iterations to FW in the past couple years, that development time is likely in short supply for a dedicated FW revamp.

Sugar Kyle, Corbexx, Mike Azariah and Steve Ronuken have all shown themselves to be very intelligent hardworking CSM reps who will listen to issues from the playerbase and do the research necessary to present good solutions to CCP. Mynna apparently had a guide on how to make Min/Amarr bomber alts for mad iskies that was on the Gewn wiki or something, so Sion Kumitomo, Endie von Post and Manfred Sidious could probably all speak to how farming these broken missions for years helped them proliferate supercapitals in nullsec. I wouldn't bother putting the nullsec candidates on your ballot since bloc voting means they'll be elected regardless, but they could potentially contribute if they wanted.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2015-02-14 00:31:17 UTC
If you're wondering what my "simple solution for FW missions" would be, here's a thought:

1. Fix LP rewards for all FW activities at Tier 2 level.
2. Delete the Tier system.
3. When able, add in 1-2 MWDing scram/web frigates to each L4 mission.

This puts your income at about 150k LP/hour regardless of Tier, removes the penalty for the losing side who's stuck at Tier 1, and massively reduces the amount of folks willing to mad farm missions. It forces folks to use ships that are more survivable, harder to move around the warzone unmolested, and requires higher skill investment (on par with other L4 mission running setups) to complete.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Silverbackyererse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-02-14 01:03:08 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
If you're wondering what my "simple solution for FW missions" would be, here's a thought:



I agree missions are terrible. I have a simpler solution though - remove them completely. Lol
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#48 - 2015-02-14 20:28:14 UTC
To maneuver us back onto the Community Representative Discussion, I think if we manage to get Sugar and Ashterothi elected FW lowsec will be well represented.

*fingers crossed*
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#49 - 2015-02-14 21:39:31 UTC
FW are not as broken as some people suggest. Gallente missions in particular require a real boat to complete - one that is vulnerable to ganks by anyone in local who sees the mission beacon pop up on overview. You also have to spend considerable amount of time and isk turning in LP, transporting the stuff to market, and then selling it.

It's not like the agent gives you a boatload of isk like other parts of this game, and it's not like they can be done passively like the other parts of this game.

Missions from other factions? Sounds like they are a joke that are best run in stealth bombers. Maybe CCP fixes that first so that other factions can then comment on whether or not missions should be nerfed into the ground.
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#50 - 2015-02-14 22:34:03 UTC
i don't see why L4 missions would need a nerf now, since the recon changes add the huge risk of a lachesis suddenly showing up on grid.
SmokinJs Arthie
Black Eagle5
#51 - 2015-02-14 23:06:35 UTC  |  Edited by: SmokinJs Arthie
Plato Forko wrote:
i don't see why L4 missions would need a nerf now, since the recon changes add the huge risk of a lachesis suddenly showing up on grid.


I think there needs a balance between the different faction's missions even more now because of the changes to recons. There is a giant discrepancy on the ships needed to be used in order to complete lvl 4 missions. For example, the Caldari can complete a lvl 4 mission in a bomber worth ~44mil isk. To complete lvl 4 missions for the Gallente you need to use either a Ishtar worth ~235mil or a T3 worth ~360mil. Don't even get me started on how much fun it is getting jammed 14+ times in a row.
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#52 - 2015-02-15 01:34:30 UTC
I always thought it'd be a great idea to let corps tax LP, that way instead of relying on individual people to sacrifice to upgrade systems corporations can take responsibility for the areas they control.
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#53 - 2015-02-15 03:08:10 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
I always thought it'd be a great idea to let corps tax LP, that way instead of relying on individual people to sacrifice to upgrade systems corporations can take responsibility for the areas they control.

I would love it too so that my corp can purchase a Titan.
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#54 - 2015-02-15 04:25:40 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
I always thought it'd be a great idea to let corps tax LP, that way instead of relying on individual people to sacrifice to upgrade systems corporations can take responsibility for the areas they control.

I would love it too so that my corp can purchase a Titan.


That too.
PERUNGA
TeamTama
#55 - 2015-02-15 07:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: PERUNGA
X Gallentius wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
I always thought it'd be a great idea to let corps tax LP, that way instead of relying on individual people to sacrifice to upgrade systems corporations can take responsibility for the areas they control.

I would love it too so that my corp can purchase a Titan.


1, You would need FCs capable of utilising an asset such as a Titan which you do not have.

2, You would need to be able to maintain ownership of you're moons which you can not.

3, You would need a fleet more substantial then derptrons to bridge via you're Titan.

I guess we all have pipe-bomb dreams X Gallentius but I think you should make you're own, a little bit more achievable.


C.Q.B camping since 2014 Cool
SmokinJs Arthie
Black Eagle5
#56 - 2015-02-15 08:17:05 UTC  |  Edited by: SmokinJs Arthie
PERUNGA wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
I always thought it'd be a great idea to let corps tax LP, that way instead of relying on individual people to sacrifice to upgrade systems corporations can take responsibility for the areas they control.

I would love it too so that my corp can purchase a Titan.


1, I went against everything I used to say because it is easier

2, I have no backbone

3, We have to team up with WAFFLES cause its too hard

We have our own little lies to help us sleep at night.


C.Q.B being irreverent since 2014 Cool


FTFY
PERUNGA
TeamTama
#57 - 2015-02-15 09:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: PERUNGA
SmokinJs Arthie a failed attempt at trolling, lets use facts not fiction.

Snuffed Out does not work with other low security pirate entities FACT.

C.Q.B left Gallente militia because we wanted better content FACT.

I have more of a backbone then any other pilot in Gallente militia FACT.

Why I hear you ask because leaving Gallente militia turning my back on FW was not the easy route. Its called a challenge the grass is not always greener on the other side. One must cultivate the right scenario for success.

So now we have the FACT'S out in the open, perhaps you can answer one simple question. Why with all you forum bravado will Gallente militia not fight Snuffed out ?

Is it because you are risk averse fearful of failure from you're own inadequacies. As pilots when faced with a superior opponent. please enlighten me.



C.Q.B camping since 2014 Cool
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#58 - 2015-02-15 11:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
PERUNGA wrote:
SmokinJs Arthie a failed attempt at trolling, lets use facts not fiction.

Snuffed Out does work with other low security pirate entities FACT, like shadow cartel and waffles.

C.Q.B left Gallente militia because we got offended that no one had any respect for us killing peole on a gate their first trip to lowsec FACT.

I have more unjustified abject arrogance then any other pilot in Gallente militia FACT,

Why I hear you ask because leaving Gallente militia turning my back on FW to join a group that has dominated the area with ease since SoTF left was not the easy route. Its called not getting results fast enough myself and jumping on the bandwagon. the grass is not always greener on the other side. One must take credit for what was already an established local power long before i joined them.

So now ive vented for losing the isk war the other night even though our combined fleet along with waffles was far superior, perhaps you can answer one simple question. Why with all you forum bravado will Gallente militia not fight Snuffed out since hte last few times where snufd had to batphone caldari militia for help lol?

Now im going to end with a sentence that barely makes any sense. I kinda know what i want to say but im in too much of a rush to get back to camping a gate for non combat kills that i dont have time to work it out.



C.Q.B camping since 2014 Cool


Quite illuminating once you put this through a truthiness filter.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Awesome Alliance
#59 - 2015-02-15 11:43:57 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
PERUNGA wrote:
SmokinJs Arthie a failed attempt at trolling, lets use facts not fiction.

Snuffed Out does work with other low security pirate entities FACT, like shadow cartel and waffles.

C.Q.B left Gallente militia because we got offended that no one had any respect for us killing peole on a gate their first trip to lowsec FACT.

I have more unjustified abject arrogance then any other pilot in Gallente militia FACT,

Why I hear you ask because leaving Gallente militia turning my back on FW to join a group that has dominated the area with ease since SoTF left was not the easy route. Its called not getting results fast enough myself and jumping on the bandwagon. the grass is not always greener on the other side. One must take credit for what was already an established local power long before i joined them.

So now ive vented for losing the isk war the other night even though our combined fleet along with waffles was far superior, perhaps you can answer one simple question. Why with all you forum bravado will Gallente militia not fight Snuffed out since hte last few times where snufd had to batphone caldari militia for help lol?

Now im going to end with a sentence that barely makes any sense. I kinda know what i want to say but im in too much of a rush to get back to camping a gate for non combat kills that i dont have time to work it out.



C.Q.B camping since 2014 Cool


I lie all the time too .




Wow that filter really works.

Big smileBig smileBig smile

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#60 - 2015-02-15 11:50:10 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
PERUNGA wrote:
SmokinJs Arthie a failed attempt at trolling, lets use facts not fiction.

Snuffed Out does work with other low security pirate entities FACT, like shadow cartel and waffles.

C.Q.B left Gallente militia because we got offended that no one had any respect for us killing peole on a gate their first trip to lowsec FACT.

I have more unjustified abject arrogance then any other pilot in Gallente militia FACT,

Why I hear you ask because leaving Gallente militia turning my back on FW to join a group that has dominated the area with ease since SoTF left was not the easy route. Its called not getting results fast enough myself and jumping on the bandwagon. the grass is not always greener on the other side. One must take credit for what was already an established local power long before i joined them.

So now ive vented for losing the isk war the other night even though our combined fleet along with waffles was far superior, perhaps you can answer one simple question. Why with all you forum bravado will Gallente militia not fight Snuffed out since hte last few times where snufd had to batphone caldari militia for help lol?

Now im going to end with a sentence that barely makes any sense. I kinda know what i want to say but im in too much of a rush to get back to camping a gate for non combat kills that i dont have time to work it out.



C.Q.B camping since 2014 Cool


I lie all the time too .




I fail at everything i do.

[:=s][:=s][:=s]



Yep