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Civilized discussion about the upcoming nerf to Awoxing.

First post
Author
Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
#1 - 2015-01-19 02:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Diamond Zerg
Hello.
I would like to start a thread where we civilly discuss the upcoming Awox changes, most notably adding the option to switch corp mate friendly fire on or off.

I believe that such a change has both pros and cons. On the positive side, it means that corps will be much more likely to recruit new players, as beforehand they needed to be much more careful lest a group of spies decimated their PvE ships.
Newer players will also be less likely to ragequit if they are not backstabbed by those they thought were allies.

However, the change does remove a very interesting part of the metagame, which is the necessity of trust in highsec as you recruit new members. This accurately reflects real life as those who are closest to you often have the most power if they choose to betray you.
Many systems such as API checks were developed to check the backgrounds of corp applicants, and it added a very interesting dynamic to high sec when you had to confirm the loyalty of corp members.

These variables created significant risk— and while I think the upcoming friendly fire change may be great for player retention, but there still remains another issue that is important to address: The low amount of risk in high sec.

As the game stands now, there are two vastly different worlds. There are the camped gates of low and nullsec, where recons with blob support crush any unorganised resistance, and there is the pristine peace of high sec.

Current high security space is boring for new players. There is hardly any control or fighting over resources, war declarations are easily evadable, and there is very little PvP in general.

In my opinion, 0.5/0.6/0.7 systems in hisec should be more of a middle ground.
A buff to the wardec system is one idea to create more conflict in hisec, but there are many routes that CCP can take.

TL;DR In conclusion, while I do think the removal of hisec awoxing could be a good idea, there should be other elements of PvP and risk added to hisec to stop it from being stale
Hi.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#2 - 2015-01-19 02:32:00 UTC
IBTL

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3 - 2015-01-19 02:33:03 UTC
I'll quote what I said before, as it still stands.

Quote:
My position is that it should entail an additional 10% tax to CONCORD for this sudden increase in safety.

CCP should also patch out dec dodging, or officially rule it as an exploit, since they are removing the major way to get at people who abuse the corp creation mechanics to dec dodge.


The last thing highsec needs is more safety, more enabling for people to never get player interaction and bore themselves to death until they inevitably unsub.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#4 - 2015-01-19 02:37:56 UTC
Diamond Zerg wrote:

I would like to start a thread where we civilly discuss the upcoming Awox changes, most notably adding the option to switch corp mate friendly fire on or off.



LOL!

Civil...in this forum. Surely this is some kind of troll.

Mr Epeen Cool
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#5 - 2015-01-19 02:49:24 UTC
Diamond Zerg wrote:
Hello.
I would like to start a thread where we civilly discuss the upcoming Awox changes, most notably adding the option to switch corp mate friendly fire on or off.

I believe that such a change has both pros and cons. On the positive side, it means that corps will be much more likely to recruit new players, as beforehand they needed to be much more careful lest a group of spies decimated their PvE ships.
Newer players will also be less likely to ragequit if they are not backstabbed by those they thought were allies.

However, the change does remove a very interesting part of the metagame, which is the necessity of trust in highsec as you recruit new members. This accurately reflects real life as those who are closest to you often have the most power if they choose to betray you.
Many systems such as API checks were developed to check the backgrounds of corp applicants, and it added a very interesting dynamic to high sec when you had to confirm the loyalty of corp members.

These variables created significant risk— and while I think the upcoming friendly fire change may be great for player retention, but there still remains another issue that is important to address: The low amount of risk in high sec.

As the game stands now, there are two vastly different worlds. There are the camped gates of low and nullsec, where recons with blob support crush any unorganised resistance, and there is the pristine peace of high sec.

Current high security space is boring for new players. There is hardly any control or fighting over resources, war declarations are easily evadable, and there is very little PvP in general.

In my opinion, 0.5/0.6/0.7 systems in hisec should be more of a middle ground.
A buff to the wardec system is one idea to create more conflict in hisec, but there are many routes that CCP can take.

TL;DR In conclusion, while I do think the removal of hisec awoxing could be a good idea, there should be other elements of PvP and risk added to hisec to stop it from being stale


I applaud your attempt to have a rational discussion on this topic. In the same spirit, I submit the following:

Awoxing nerf is not required because corporations already exist that recruit new players. As yet, there is no substantive evidence to suggest that this change will encourage corps who previously did not recruit to change their practices.

In your own post, you admitted that opportunities for PVP in highsec are rigid (increasingly so if this nerf goes ahead) and limited. This limits those options further. In general I discourage any mechanic which encourages a player to rely on an in game feature rather than their own wits and resources.

I personally believe it coaches a player to behave in a way that is inherently at odds with the rest of the game. Lowsec, nullsec and WH players understand the risks and benefits of corpmates and accept awoxers as a potential risk. Adding a safety net discourages people from thinking for themselves.

Finally, (and this is my personal opinion) the risk of spies and awoxers adds a layer of danger and excitement that is unique to EVE, and it would be a shame to see it go.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.

Shailagh
6Six6Six6Six
#6 - 2015-01-19 02:54:34 UTC
Ccp_master on reddit said that it will be defaulted to Enabled. Meaning friendly green on green fire is allowed by default. Im willing the bet the same corps that just hit accept to any app will never toggle it.

Seriously i have alts with awox medals, their bios are quotes from people i made cry, their killboards are all indy/corp kills... and STULL GET BLINDLY ACCEPTED. Im like... are yoy kidding me? Who the hell would ever recruit my alts? I sure wouldnt... some ceos DONT DESERVE TO BE CEOS AND TO LEARN NEWBS. THEY HURT THE NEWBROS CCP.BY ENCOURAGING MORE NEWBROS INTO THESE TERRIBLE BEAR CORPS YOU ARE DOING THEM A SEVERE DISSERVICE.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#7 - 2015-01-19 03:03:04 UTC
Shailagh wrote:
Ccp_master on reddit said that it will be defaulted to Enabled. Meaning friendly green on green fire is allowed by default. Im willing the bet the same corps that just hit accept to any app will never toggle it.

Seriously i have alts with awox medals, their bios are quotes from people i made cry, their killboards are all indy/corp kills... and STULL GET BLINDLY ACCEPTED. Im like... are yoy kidding me? Who the hell would ever recruit my alts? I sure wouldnt... some ceos DONT DESERVE TO BE CEOS AND TO LEARN NEWBS. THEY HURT THE NEWBROS CCP.BY ENCOURAGING MORE NEWBROS INTO THESE TERRIBLE BEAR CORPS YOU ARE DOING THEM A SEVERE DISSERVICE.


And that's the laziness of carebears.

Yes, it is remarkably easy to spot an awoxer. But it's work in the first place.

It is remarkably more easy to just push a button and get free safety. No matter how low they sink, they can at least push one button. Hell, half of their gameplay has devolved to just one button. Autopilot, mining, AFK missioning in a Dominix. Their entire philosophy is just one button.

It might take them a bit to come around, but they'll push this button, eventually they all will. That's why they should have to pay for it, because it should be a meaningful choice, not just "free safety".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#8 - 2015-01-19 03:12:26 UTC
Two options:

1) Adapt
2) Cry

So far we're hitting number two on all cylinders. Just like the last thread.

Mr Epeen Cool
Jenshae Chiroptera
#9 - 2015-01-19 03:12:31 UTC
I believe it is a good change based upon why CCP is implementing it. That is all.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#10 - 2015-01-19 03:17:13 UTC
(As a quick aside: I'm all for having a civilized discussion, but that's really difficult when it's possible for one side to get a thread locked unilaterally just by being mean to the other.)

The reason this nerf shouldn't happen is because it's pure hypocrisy. Newbies get shunned from corporations to a much higher degree because they could be war spies, than because they could be awoxers. I guarantee this, as a primary source of information on the matter, because I'm heavily integrated with the high-sec pvp meta game.

To obliterate a much weaker form of high-sec aggression that's responsible for "newbies leaving the game" to a much lesser degree than another either shows an extreme degree of shortsightedness, or acts as a precursor for further nerfs to the very notion of high-sec pvp.

This isn't a case where we can budge, and accept the change with some kind of give-and-take, like a CONCORD tax levied on corporations that have the feature turned on. Why? Because then a few months from now, we'll have a tax for war immunity as well.

The issue isn't, and never was, whether or not we have taxes on various forms of pvp immunity, aside from the specific case of NPC corporations, which have existed since the beginning.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#11 - 2015-01-19 03:19:00 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Two options:

1) Adapt
2) Cry

So far we're hitting number two on all cylinders. Just like the last thread.

Mr Epeen Cool

You see, bullshit like this is exactly why they locked the last thread. You can say something like this, and then there's a lock, despite other people sticking to the rules. I'm normally tolerant of your style, but this is intentional sabotage, so I'm going to report it, and I hope others do the same.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-01-19 03:21:58 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Three options:

1) Adapt
2) Cry
3) RABBLERABBLERABBLERABBLERABBLERABBLE

So far we're hitting number two on all cylinders. Just like the last thread.

Mr Epeen Cool

FTFY
Ned Thomas
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#13 - 2015-01-19 03:23:22 UTC
We were daydreaming on comms over how we could use this to screw with people. The more I think about it, the more I'm looking forward to it.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#14 - 2015-01-19 03:26:28 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Two options:

1) Adapt
2) Cry

So far we're hitting number two on all cylinders. Just like the last thread.

Mr Epeen Cool

You see, bullshit like this is exactly why they locked the last thread. You can say something like this, and then there's a lock, despite other people sticking to the rules. I'm normally tolerant of your style, but this is intentional sabotage, so I'm going to report it, and I hope others do the same.


This thread has already been reported for reopening a locked thread.

vOv

Mr Epeen Cool
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#15 - 2015-01-19 03:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
If for some reason I wanted to utterly kill activity in lowsec and low-class wormholes, this is the one change I would have made.

More safety in highsec = more reason for the few people that carry out ISK generation activities in low/C1-3 to pack up and head to the higher rewards and lower risk of highsec.

Less prey in low/C1-3 = less opportunities for predators there.

Better areas in nullsec and high class WHs *probably* remain worth fighting over, but lesser quality space just got sledgehammered, hard.



Ned Thomas wrote:
We were daydreaming on comms over how we could use this to screw with people. The more I think about it, the more I'm looking forward to it.


I do have several ideas too, particularly plans for a campaign of utter terror against mission runners. Discussions will have to follow to see if it can be made a reality.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#16 - 2015-01-19 03:34:29 UTC
What I wish is that CCP openly solicited ideas on how to make the game better for new players socially, as opposed to simply turning something off that they perceive is a threat. We've gotten some good content lately, but this is downright lazy of them.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Ned Thomas
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#17 - 2015-01-19 03:47:16 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


lesser quality space just got sledgehammered, hard.




I live in a small C3. We'll find a way :)
Korwin Abre-Kai
lichfield exploration and salvage
#18 - 2015-01-19 03:49:19 UTC
the very first thing I was told as a newb was "join a player corp and make friends" the second thing I was told was trust no one and be careful because certain corps run recruitment scams OH and by the way your corp mates can shoot you even in high secShocked.........
thanks but no thanks not interested in playing lord of the flies online. to this day im in my own one man corp and doing just fine I might add, still having a blast at 1.5 years and counting I don't know if this change will help or not but at least it is a start.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#19 - 2015-01-19 04:03:36 UTC
Korwin Abre-Kai wrote:
the very first thing I was told as a newb was "join a player corp and make friends" the second thing I was told was trust no one and be careful because certain corps run recruitment scams OH and by the way your corp mates can shoot you even in high secShocked.........
thanks but no thanks not interested in playing lord of the flies online. to this day im in my own one man corp and doing just fine I might add, still having a blast at 1.5 years and counting I don't know if this change will help or not but at least it is a start.

It's not nearly as bad as you might think it is. Of course, if you're having fun alone, you can keep doing that no problem, but if you ever get interested in associating with groups of people, don't let that "lord of the flies" thing keep you back. Also, a pretty surefire way to avoid awoxing is to join a more pvp-focused corporation, which tend to be much better managed.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#20 - 2015-01-19 04:05:46 UTC
This thing is going to be abused.

24 hours? Lol

What will a new player do, who finally got into a corp that seemd to fit and finds the button is set to ff when logging in for a previously announced corp event? Not undock? For how long? Leave the corp and start all over? Or believe what the corp leadership tells him and get the shiny new lvl4 mission battleship he saved up for raped?

Maybe we're going to see some interesting stories with this feature.

Remove standings and insurance.

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