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Crime & Punishment

 
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A different take on a war with code

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Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#81 - 2015-01-24 18:00:38 UTC
Sonne7 wrote:
when ISD remove a post is there anyway to see who it was from
Depending on how fast it was moderated Eve-search is often able to show moderated posts, in this case the ISD team were lightning quick and the Eve search cache doesn't show it.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-01-24 18:35:44 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


It's funny how opponents of the New Order vacillate between the Code-is-the-greatest-threat-to-the-game-ever-so-nerf-everything-now position and this Code-are-inconsequential position, although apparently not inconsequential enough for them to stop posting about Code on the forums.

Either we are small number of players living on the fringes of highsec aggression mechanics, barely influencing New Eden and therefore the repeated cries for increased safety by carebears are just whining (Nerf bumping! Station lockouts! Buff CONCORD! We want consequences!), or we are indeed a significant threat to highsec safety (10T ISK?), in which case, well, you probably should buy a permit.


New order is a threat to new/casual players. It makes the game unpleasant for them, and they respond by quitting. That is bad for the game. New order is a joke to elite PvE players. Incursion runners and mission runners regularly laugh at the incompetence and failed ganks. Actually finding an agent in an incursion zone is harder than Where's Waldo?

Turns out the bullies only go after the weakest and most pathetic targets. Touche'.


Wow. A game that preys on the weak? Unbelievable. Utterly unheard of. Cause we all know that when we play other games, like Dota 2, you would never get fed off of people who are weaker than you. Thats why the weaker team always wins, because the stronger team refuses to pick on and feed off of them. Same as any other game. See a weaker, lower ranked player in Call of duty? Off limits. No one is allowed to shoot him. Otherwise, you would be a bully, going after a weaker, more pathetic target.

This is how eve should be. If a 5 ship nullsec gatecamp sees only 1 ship jump through, they should let them go. After all, that ship is weaker than the 5 ships in the gatecamp, and they shouldnt be bullies who prey on the weakest targets. Same goes for industrials, all industrials should be off limits to shoot at in low and nullsec space. Even if you see a Jump freighter afk in the middle of space, you should not attack it.
John E Normus
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#83 - 2015-01-24 21:56:36 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


It's funny how opponents of the New Order vacillate between the Code-is-the-greatest-threat-to-the-game-ever-so-nerf-everything-now position and this Code-are-inconsequential position, although apparently not inconsequential enough for them to stop posting about Code on the forums.

Either we are small number of players living on the fringes of highsec aggression mechanics, barely influencing New Eden and therefore the repeated cries for increased safety by carebears are just whining (Nerf bumping! Station lockouts! Buff CONCORD! We want consequences!), or we are indeed a significant threat to highsec safety (10T ISK?), in which case, well, you probably should buy a permit.


New order is a threat to new/casual players. It makes the game unpleasant for them, and they respond by quitting. That is bad for the game. New order is a joke to elite PvE players. Incursion runners and mission runners regularly laugh at the incompetence and failed ganks. Actually finding an agent in an incursion zone is harder than Where's Waldo?

Turns out the bullies only go after the weakest and most pathetic targets. Touche'.


Wow. A game that preys on the weak? Unbelievable. Utterly unheard of. Cause we all know that when we play other games, like Dota 2, you would never get fed off of people who are weaker than you. Thats why the weaker team always wins, because the stronger team refuses to pick on and feed off of them. Same as any other game. See a weaker, lower ranked player in Call of duty? Off limits. No one is allowed to shoot him. Otherwise, you would be a bully, going after a weaker, more pathetic target.

This is how eve should be. If a 5 ship nullsec gatecamp sees only 1 ship jump through, they should let them go. After all, that ship is weaker than the 5 ships in the gatecamp, and they shouldnt be bullies who prey on the weakest targets. Same goes for industrials, all industrials should be off limits to shoot at in low and nullsec space. Even if you see a Jump freighter afk in the middle of space, you should not attack it.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Between Ignorance and Wisdom
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2015-01-25 00:54:43 UTC
John E Normus wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


It's funny how opponents of the New Order vacillate between the Code-is-the-greatest-threat-to-the-game-ever-so-nerf-everything-now position and this Code-are-inconsequential position, although apparently not inconsequential enough for them to stop posting about Code on the forums.

Either we are small number of players living on the fringes of highsec aggression mechanics, barely influencing New Eden and therefore the repeated cries for increased safety by carebears are just whining (Nerf bumping! Station lockouts! Buff CONCORD! We want consequences!), or we are indeed a significant threat to highsec safety (10T ISK?), in which case, well, you probably should buy a permit.


New order is a threat to new/casual players. It makes the game unpleasant for them, and they respond by quitting. That is bad for the game. New order is a joke to elite PvE players. Incursion runners and mission runners regularly laugh at the incompetence and failed ganks. Actually finding an agent in an incursion zone is harder than Where's Waldo?

Turns out the bullies only go after the weakest and most pathetic targets. Touche'.


Wow. A game that preys on the weak? Unbelievable. Utterly unheard of. Cause we all know that when we play other games, like Dota 2, you would never get fed off of people who are weaker than you. Thats why the weaker team always wins, because the stronger team refuses to pick on and feed off of them. Same as any other game. See a weaker, lower ranked player in Call of duty? Off limits. No one is allowed to shoot him. Otherwise, you would be a bully, going after a weaker, more pathetic target.

This is how eve should be. If a 5 ship nullsec gatecamp sees only 1 ship jump through, they should let them go. After all, that ship is weaker than the 5 ships in the gatecamp, and they shouldnt be bullies who prey on the weakest targets. Same goes for industrials, all industrials should be off limits to shoot at in low and nullsec space. Even if you see a Jump freighter afk in the middle of space, you should not attack it.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA


Also, why do people keep blaming the victims in other games? Its never the miners fault when he gets ganked. Its never the Freighter pilots fault when he goes afk in Uedama for 2 hours in an untanked ship. And yet, every time i play Dota 2, and go afk in the middle of the lane and end up feeding, people call me an idiot. If I want to walk into the middle of the lane, and go afk, i should be able to. Its the opposite teams fault for attacking me when im clearly defenseless and wont fight back. And yet my teamates yell and scream at me as if its somehow my fault.

I should be able to play the game, the way i want to. The enemy team has no right to kill me. I should send a letter to Valve, so that they can fix this exploit.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#85 - 2015-01-25 01:54:09 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:


Also, why do people keep blaming the victims in other games? Its never the miners fault when he gets ganked. Its never the Freighter pilots fault when he goes afk in Uedama for 2 hours in an untanked ship. And yet, every time i play Dota 2, and go afk in the middle of the lane and end up feeding, people call me an idiot. If I want to walk into the middle of the lane, and go afk, i should be able to. Its the opposite teams fault for attacking me when im clearly defenseless and wont fight back. And yet my teamates yell and scream at me as if its somehow my fault.

I should be able to play the game, the way i want to. The enemy team has no right to kill me. I should send a letter to Valve, so that they can fix this exploit.


In Dota 2 it's perfectly legal to kill people. In Eve it's an illegal criminal act - so the two cases have nothing in common.
Tyyler DURden
Mordechai and Sons Distribution Co.
#86 - 2015-01-25 02:02:40 UTC
Did you send that poor german fellow his reimbursment yet Veers?

Tyyler DURden says "use soap"
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#87 - 2015-01-25 02:43:40 UTC
Tyyler DURden wrote:
Did you send that poor german fellow his reimbursment yet Veers?


Which one? The folks who get the reimbursement evemails think it's a troll and never ask me for isk...new business model needed.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#88 - 2015-01-25 03:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Veers Belvar wrote:
In Dota 2 it's perfectly legal to kill people. In Eve it's an illegal criminal act - so the two cases have nothing in common.
It's not an illegal act in Eve by any means, wardecs prove that.

Ganking in highsec carries a penalty yes, but for what? The act of killing or the act of not paying for a Concord approved hunting licence to do so?

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#89 - 2015-01-25 03:31:18 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
In Dota 2 it's perfectly legal to kill people. In Eve it's an illegal criminal act - so the two cases have nothing in common.
It's not an illegal act in Eve by any means, wardecs prove that.

Ganking in highsec carries a penalty yes, but for what? The act of killing or the act of not paying for a Concord approved hunting licence to do so?


Wars can be avoided by dropping corp....the ganking of npc corp haulers is absolutely a crime and no payment to concord could change that.
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#90 - 2015-01-25 03:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Veers Belvar wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
In Dota 2 it's perfectly legal to kill people. In Eve it's an illegal criminal act - so the two cases have nothing in common.
It's not an illegal act in Eve by any means, wardecs prove that.

Ganking in highsec carries a penalty yes, but for what? The act of killing or the act of not paying for a Concord approved hunting licence to do so?


Wars can be avoided by dropping corp
Ganking can be avoided just as readily, the means of doing so has been posted repeatedly.

Quote:
....the ganking of npc corp haulers is absolutely a crime and no payment to concord could change that.
So in your book it's OK for people to counter wardecs by either dropping corp or remaining in an NPC corp, but it's not OK for would be war-deccers to counter that by ganking them instead?

The question remains, which act is punished in highsec; the act of killing, or the act of killing without having paid Concord off?

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#91 - 2015-01-25 04:45:13 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
In Dota 2 it's perfectly legal to kill people. In Eve it's an illegal criminal act - so the two cases have nothing in common.
It's not an illegal act in Eve by any means, wardecs prove that.

Ganking in highsec carries a penalty yes, but for what? The act of killing or the act of not paying for a Concord approved hunting licence to do so?


Wars can be avoided by dropping corp
Ganking can be avoided just as readily, the means of doing so has been posted repeatedly.

Quote:
....the ganking of npc corp haulers is absolutely a crime and no payment to concord could change that.
So in your book it's OK for people to counter wardecs by either dropping corp or remaining in an NPC corp, but it's not OK for would be war-deccers to counter that by ganking them instead?

The question remains, which act is punished in highsec; the act of killing, or the act of killing without having paid Concord off?


Ganking could also be avoided by not logging on. Much like real life could be prevented by locking yourself in your house? So what?

The act of WRONGFUL killing is punished...and that is what code specializes in.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2015-01-25 05:13:31 UTC
EVE is now being compared to DOTA?

What the ****?

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#93 - 2015-01-25 10:19:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Veers Belvar wrote:
Ganking could also be avoided by not logging on. Much like real life could be prevented by locking yourself in your house? So what?
Irrelevant, also melodramatic and a silly thing to say.

Quote:
The act of WRONGFUL killing is punished...and that is what code specializes in.
According to you, all killing in hisec is "wrongful". Avoiding the question by trying to change the context is still avoiding the question btw Roll

Wardecs and ganking are explicitly allowed game mechanics.
Wardecs can be avoided by dropping corp or remaining in an NPC corp, also explicitly allowed game mechanics.

Ganking is the counter to the evasion of wardecs.
Not being a blithering idiot is the counter to ganking.

The only guarantee given by any of the above is that somebody may explode, either at the hands of another player, or at the hands of Concord.

Ganking is the punishment for the "wrongful" evasion of aggression via the wardec mechanics, Concord is the punishment for the "wrongful" non payment of a bribe.

You're not meant to feel safe in New Eden, even in hisec. Ganking and wardecs are part of the mechanisms that facilitate this. The complete avoidance of aggression from others is neither intended, nor desirable.

TL;DR Working as intended.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#94 - 2015-01-25 15:47:24 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Ganking could also be avoided by not logging on. Much like real life could be prevented by locking yourself in your house? So what?
Irrelevant, also melodramatic and a silly thing to say.

Quote:
The act of WRONGFUL killing is punished...and that is what code specializes in.
According to you, all killing in hisec is "wrongful". Avoiding the question by trying to change the context is still avoiding the question btw Roll

Wardecs and ganking are explicitly allowed game mechanics.
Wardecs can be avoided by dropping corp or remaining in an NPC corp, also explicitly allowed game mechanics.

Ganking is the counter to the evasion of wardecs.
Not being a blithering idiot is the counter to ganking.

The only guarantee given by any of the above is that somebody may explode, either at the hands of another player, or at the hands of Concord.

Ganking is the punishment for the "wrongful" evasion of aggression via the wardec mechanics, Concord is the punishment for the "wrongful" non payment of a bribe.

You're not meant to feel safe in New Eden, even in hisec. Ganking and wardecs are part of the mechanisms that facilitate this. The complete avoidance of aggression from others is neither intended, nor desirable.

TL;DR Working as intended.


Ganking is explicitly illegal, and leads to punishment at the hands of the police. It is absolutely against the law in New Eden and a crime...this is trivial.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2015-01-25 16:45:03 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:


Also, why do people keep blaming the victims in other games? Its never the miners fault when he gets ganked. Its never the Freighter pilots fault when he goes afk in Uedama for 2 hours in an untanked ship. And yet, every time i play Dota 2, and go afk in the middle of the lane and end up feeding, people call me an idiot. If I want to walk into the middle of the lane, and go afk, i should be able to. Its the opposite teams fault for attacking me when im clearly defenseless and wont fight back. And yet my teamates yell and scream at me as if its somehow my fault.

I should be able to play the game, the way i want to. The enemy team has no right to kill me. I should send a letter to Valve, so that they can fix this exploit.


In Dota 2 it's perfectly legal to kill people. In Eve it's an illegal criminal act - so the two cases have nothing in common.


Only within in-game lore. Its still a valid game mechanic. Kinda like how its an illegal criminal act to steal from a vendor in Skyrim.

But does it make you immoral to do so? Is it wrong to do so?
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#96 - 2015-01-25 17:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Veers Belvar wrote:
Ganking is explicitly illegal, and leads to punishment at the hands of the police. It is absolutely against the law in New Eden and a crime...this is trivial.
What's your point?

Ganking is an allowed playstyle, one that is explicitly allowed to happen by CCP; as such it can only be considered illegal for lore and roleplay purposes. For all other purposes it is a legitimate and permitted playstyle.

Your pathetic moral crusade is pointless btw. Go find another windmill to tilt at, the foundations of this one are far more substantial than you imagine.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#97 - 2015-01-25 18:45:07 UTC
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Ganking is explicitly illegal, and leads to punishment at the hands of the police. It is absolutely against the law in New Eden and a crime...this is trivial.
What's your point?

Ganking is an allowed playstyle, one that is explicitly allowed to happen by CCP; as such it can only be considered illegal for lore and roleplay purposes. For all other purposes it is a legitimate and permitted playstyle.

Your pathetic moral crusade is pointless btw. Go find another windmill to tilt at, the foundations of this one are far more substantial than you imagine.


That's like saying shoplifting is an "allowed playstyle" in real life. Illegal acts are by definition not "allowed."
Tyyler DURden
Mordechai and Sons Distribution Co.
#98 - 2015-01-26 01:56:52 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Ganking is explicitly illegal, and leads to punishment at the hands of the police. It is absolutely against the law in New Eden and a crime...this is trivial.
What's your point?

Ganking is an allowed playstyle, one that is explicitly allowed to happen by CCP; as such it can only be considered illegal for lore and roleplay purposes. For all other purposes it is a legitimate and permitted playstyle.

Your pathetic moral crusade is pointless btw. Go find another windmill to tilt at, the foundations of this one are far more substantial than you imagine.


That's like saying shoplifting is an "allowed playstyle" in real life. Illegal acts are by definition not "allowed."

Here we go again Veers. You've posted some silly things in this thread but this last one takes the cake. I should of known it would be sooner rather then later that you would post something so completely ridiculous that the only response would be to kill it forward once again. You'll be hearing from another innocent soon, begging for reimbursment, and pleading that you stop the madness that is your forum posting.

I'll try to get an english speaker this time.

Tyyler DURden says "use soap"
Concord Guy's Cousin
Doomheim
#99 - 2015-01-26 02:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Concord Guy's Cousin
Veers Belvar wrote:
Concord Guy's Cousin wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Ganking is explicitly illegal, and leads to punishment at the hands of the police. It is absolutely against the law in New Eden and a crime...this is trivial.
What's your point?

Ganking is an allowed playstyle, one that is explicitly allowed to happen by CCP; as such it can only be considered illegal for lore and roleplay purposes. For all other purposes it is a legitimate and permitted playstyle.

Your pathetic moral crusade is pointless btw. Go find another windmill to tilt at, the foundations of this one are far more substantial than you imagine.


That's like saying shoplifting is an "allowed playstyle" in real life. Illegal acts are by definition not "allowed."
The difference is that shoplifting in real life is explicitly forbidden by the powers that be.

In Eve the powers that be are CCP, and they explicitly allow ganking to happen; by virtue of the fact that they could just code it out of the game, by completely removing the ability to shoot at other players in hisec without the appropriate combat flag being present or other criteria such as a wardec being met, if they felt the need to so.

In this context CCP are quite literally the masters of their universe, they can arbitrarily change the laws of physics and the nature of the universe whenever they want, something that isn't possible in the real world. That they haven't done so speaks volumes, not to mention the multiple Dev posts that say ganking is an allowed and permitted activity.

Your little moral crusade is based on false assumptions and out of context arguments, kindly take it elsewhere.

ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries"

NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Renard Solo
Sublimation inc
#100 - 2015-01-26 07:15:15 UTC
Yay my thread was derailed by veers lol, am i now a proper eve member? Do i win a prize?