These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Awoxing is no more

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Aredontis
Doomheim
#441 - 2015-01-17 01:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Aredontis
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I see. And do you not think that wars are a much bigger threat to new players not being in corps than awoxing?


No, I don't. Hi-sec wars suck, but they teach you to turtle or fight. If you're in a turtle-ing corp and you think you should be fighting (like I was), then you go somewhere else and fight (like I did, went to RVB).
I don't give 2-***** about wars anymore, I'm a null-bear and laugh at the whole scenario.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#442 - 2015-01-17 01:22:36 UTC
That's the other thing that irritates me about this. The "solution" doesn't even attempt to address the supposed problem.

You want to know what the major reason that there are too many people in NPC corps instead of player corps? NPC corps are way too beneficial compared to player corps. There are too many benefits, and almost zero negatives. (unless for some reason you love using the busted POS mechanics)

But we're not even going to touch that, no sir. We're going to use an obvious false flag to handwave away something that's been in the game since day 1.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#443 - 2015-01-17 01:23:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Aredontis wrote:

CCP has decided that corps don't bring in enough noobs because they don't want to get an awoxer.


This is the part that is the biggest lie.

If corps aren't recruiting noobs, then no one is being awoxed in the first place.

But since awoxing is happening, then people are in fact recruiting.

The real problem here is that there are too many ways to pretend that EVE is a single player game, and that highsec enables those things too much with hand holding gameplay.
Consider this reasoning for a sec:

The better a corp is the more likely they have cautious recruitment, the more cautious and selective the recruitment the greater the possibility that they might exclude a genuine new player under fear they are a awoxer. On the other hand, bad corps, who are more likely attract awoxers and not be able to offer positive experiences for new players are one in the same.

The gain in this case become that a corp which may have rejected the idea of recruiting new players in the past for those reasons would potentially be more likely to consider it in the future.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#444 - 2015-01-17 01:28:36 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

The better a corp is the more likely they have cautious recruitment, the more cautious and selective the recruitment the greater the possibility that they might exclude a genuine new player under fear they are a awoxer.


False. A good corp knows how to tell the difference between a new player and an awoxer, as it's blindingly obvious if you actually look at an API check. (I'll give you a hint, no new player, ever, will have half a million skillpoints in Gallente Destroyer and Small Hybrid guns)

A good corp has zero issue recruiting newbies.


Quote:

On the other hand, bad corps, who are more likely attract awoxers and not be able to offer positive experiences for new players are one in the same.


Which is why they should be destroyed by awoxers, wars and other such things, since their continued existence is basically griefing newbies.

Where were you going with this?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sugar Smacks
Khanid Royal Navy
Khanid.
#445 - 2015-01-17 01:45:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Aredontis wrote:

CCP has decided that corps don't bring in enough noobs because they don't want to get an awoxer.


This is the part that is the biggest lie.

If corps aren't recruiting noobs, then no one is being awoxed in the first place.

But since awoxing is happening, then people are in fact recruiting.

The real problem here is that there are too many ways to pretend that EVE is a single player game, and that highsec enables those things too much with hand holding gameplay.


When did EvE become a game that had to be played your way?
When did EvE have any correct way to play?

More people is beneficial, period. There is no quality in a player who's primary gameplay is centered around targeting newbies.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#446 - 2015-01-17 01:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
False. A good corp knows how to tell the difference between a new player and an awoxer, as it's blindingly obvious if you actually look at an API check. (I'll give you a hint, no new player, ever, will have half a million skillpoints in Gallente Destroyer and Small Hybrid guns)

A good corp has zero issue recruiting newbies.
I've never been awoxed, so honestly I have no clue if anyone makes efforts in diversifying their skills to make such signs less obvious, so I'll take your word for it.

Quote:
Which is why they should be destroyed by awoxers, wars and other such things, since their continued existence is basically griefing newbies.

Where were you going with this?
This part doesn't seem to be working out, else awoxing itself would have been a self resolving issue.

To be more specific, the triviality of opening another trash corp and targeting those who lack the experience to know it's trash doesn't seem in any way countered by awoxing.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#447 - 2015-01-17 01:50:11 UTC
Sugar Smacks wrote:

When did EvE become a game that had to be played your way?


As long as the Q&A for the game has said "EVE Online is a PvP game". So, since always.

Quote:

When did EvE have any correct way to play?


I hate to break this to you, but yes, there are ways to play the game wrong. It's a sandbox game, so in fact there are dozens of ways to do it wrong.


Quote:

More people is beneficial, period.


Quantity is not quality, and it never will be.

Quote:

There is no quality in a player who's primary gameplay is centered around targeting newbies.


Good thing no one actually does this, since newbies have nothing worth taking. Changes like this only benefit the fat, lazy old carebears who can't be asked to defend themselves.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#448 - 2015-01-17 01:52:28 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I've never been awoxed, so honestly I have no clue if anyone makes efforts in diversifying their skills to make such signs less obvious, so I'll take your word for it.


We don't. Part of why it's so funny is that even if you give them your API, most of the time they don't look at it.


Quote:
This part doesn't seem to be working out, else awoxing itself would have been a self resolving issue.


It is. That's what makes this a false flag.


Quote:

To be more specific, the triviality of opening another trash corp and targeting those who lack the experience to know it's trash doesn't seem in any way countered by awoxing.


If you're asking why the barrier to that hasn't been raised, damned if I know.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2015-01-17 01:58:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
This part doesn't seem to be working out, else awoxing itself would have been a self resolving issue.


It is. That's what makes this a false flag.
Then I'm missing something. If awoxing was weeding out these corps then would it not be expected that potential targets on which awoxing would work would decrease, further decreasing the amount of actual awoxing until it became too trivial to even consider if not nonexistent (which is what was mean by self resolving)?

Or are we looking at this some other way in saying it is working?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#450 - 2015-01-17 02:01:51 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
This part doesn't seem to be working out, else awoxing itself would have been a self resolving issue.


It is. That's what makes this a false flag.
Then I'm missing something. If awoxing was weeding out these corps then would it not be expected that potential targets on which awoxing would work would decrease, further decreasing the amount of actual awoxing until it became too trivial to even consider if not nonexistent (which is what was mean by self resolving)?

Or are we looking at this some other way in saying it is working?

That's the entire point. How many stories about awoxing have you read lately?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#451 - 2015-01-17 02:01:55 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Then I'm missing something. If awoxing was weeding out these corps then would it not be expected that potential targets on which awoxing would work would decrease, further decreasing the amount of actual awoxing until it became to trivial too even consider if not nonexistent (which is what was mean by self resolving)?


You're forgetting that some people just don't learn. The kind of people who make bad corps, and then get awoxed, are often repeat victims in a tertiary capacity.

Basically, the bad corps self propagate at a fairly ridiculous rate, since the barrier for entry to make a corp is so very low.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2015-01-17 02:10:16 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
That's the entire point. How many stories about awoxing have you read lately?
General disinterests leaves that number at 0 regardless of the actual level of activity. I can't be counted on to help your point there, not to say you aren't right.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're forgetting that some people just don't learn. The kind of people who make bad corps, and then get awoxed, are often repeat victims in a tertiary capacity.

Basically, the bad corps self propagate at a fairly ridiculous rate, since the barrier for entry to make a corp is so very low.
I'm not so much forgetting as I am taking that very fact into consideration. If reforming is trivial I just don't see the stated gains from awoxing allowing this conversation and the events precipitating it to be a thing.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#453 - 2015-01-17 02:11:25 UTC
Wardecs, Awoxing, NPC corp invulnerability, wardec dodging, and lacking tangible benefits of player corps are all current problems that need to be addressed together. The removal of Awoxing is like applying a band aid to a broken leg.

A line must be drawn between joining a player group to meet and socialize with like-minded individuals and joining a player group for the tangible benefits of being in one. The risk of wardec and Awox should not be a factor in the former, but it should be in the latter. Refer to Tear Jar's thread on this topic for a more detailed discussion about this.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#454 - 2015-01-17 02:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
If reforming is trivial


That's the point. It shouldn't be. Player corps should be something worth defending, and not being able to trivially reroll them is a vital part of that.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Masato Andris
Empyreal Paradox
#455 - 2015-01-17 02:50:29 UTC
As I mentioned back on Page 1, I'm not sure this is a particularly big change.

Let us assume that Corp A is a 'bad highsec corp'. Corp A has friendly fire protection enabled in corp settings.

- Awoxer can talk their way into the roles required to disable the switch. Given how easily some people hand the keys over...

- Intel is still intel. Corp A is probably going to have the details of their next mining op in the corp bulletins. Just pass this on to your nearest friendly squad of Catalysts and be the Warp-at-Zero guy.

- Luring targets into lowsec (w-space might work better). Won't always work, of course.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#456 - 2015-01-17 02:57:26 UTC
Masato Andris wrote:

- Awoxer can talk their way into the roles required to disable the switch. Given how easily some people hand the keys over...


It gives a 24 hour notification before going into effect. As per CCP Masterplan on reddit.

Which pretty much puts the lie to a lot of what people in this thread have been trying to claim. It's not a matter of "being sneaky" or "working harder". This change eliminates awoxing, period.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#457 - 2015-01-17 03:01:45 UTC
Aredontis wrote:


That sentence really shows me why we don't agree. You believe you know what Eve is and everyone else is somehow "doing it wrong" when not done your way.


lol, and here comes the standard "you just want me to play EVE your way" defense mechanism. Such a thing only pops up when the poster knows (deep down) that he's in the wrong about what he posted.

We don't agree because to you EVE is just some space ship game and it's ok (to you) if EVE abandons what it is in an attempt to make more money. That's the beginning and the ending of this particular disagreement.
Masato Andris
Empyreal Paradox
#458 - 2015-01-17 03:10:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It gives a 24 hour notification before going into effect. As per CCP Masterplan on reddit.


I've not been keeping up on Reddit, so I missed that.

Time to make more bank on catalysts then...
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#459 - 2015-01-17 03:10:30 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Ah, the day subscription fees mattering more than quality content is finally upon us.

fair play to ccp, took them longer to succumb to allure than most other companies.
still, a sad day.



If you look at the rest of the world, it's pretty easy to understand. CCP (like most companies) is under constant (and unrealistic) pressure from "stake holders" to bring in more money. you don't do that with smallish but dedicated fanbases, you need 'the masses'. it's why quality games can't get funding now and have to gamble on 'crowd funding' schemes and why most MMOs are "lvl up" grind fests for dumb people. It's also why Bad movies get made..

If I were rich I'd buy CCP and make it a non-profit charity ("think of the Children NERDs") dedicated to the preservation of hard core sandbox games that give no fucks about squishy people's 'feelings' .
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#460 - 2015-01-17 03:18:44 UTC
Shailagh wrote:
Ccp cant you see this logic is flawed?? Some csm dudes even tried to say so. Wtf is the poijt of them is you dont listen?? This vhange and gonna increase RETENTION 1% IF ANYTJING GONNA MAKE OLDVETS QUIT MORE.



If the number of new players retained is greater than the number of old vets quitting because they can't shoot in-corp noobs on safaris in hisec, we win.

If people are going to quit because of a change which doesn't alter their own game play one iota, well they shouldn't let the door hit their arse on the way out.

Day 0 Advice for New Players