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Proposal for T3 rebalance
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Lugh Crow-Slave
#41 - 2015-01-28 10:00:18 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Being able to refit modules/subs would only require a "Mobile Structure Bay" that would hold a Mobile Depot.

In reality, T3's need their subsystems (and combination there of) to be extremely and carefully redesigned to:
A: be balanced at the level of power desired
B: be useful in any and all combinations at a desired/intended role
C: Allow the switching or remove rig slots

I would first look at the role for each subsystem/sub combination and figure out what they all should do.

Then I would address how powerful each rig should be

Then look at whether rigs are required or not.

A lot of the subs just need a tweak. Some are overpowered and some plane right useless or extremely niche. The racial specific subs should be available to all (eg Gravitational Capacitor would be nice on Loki/Legion)

Some of the rigs just don't make sense. I mean an Augmented Cap reservoir does not give you a larger cap pool. A cap regeneration matrix does though ??!! Daft stuff like that are just stupid things.

Should T3's be at a power level between T1 and T2? Only if someone fits them for multi role. When you combine subs for a super specialized role you should get better than T2 out of it.




there are 120 sub combinations per race(more if you now mix and match racial subs) so testing every combination is not the best way to go about it


racial subs should stay racial other wise there is little factor in choosing a base hull it becomes harder to balance and one hull will come out on top where the others see little use


a fully dedicated t3 being better than t2 is the situation we have now and its not a good one you. if i can make a T3 do a niche job better than the T2 that is meant to do it then why do i ever use the T2.


I still feel T3s should be just above T1 unless they are overheating

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2015-01-28 10:07:25 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Being able to refit modules/subs would only require a "Mobile Structure Bay" that would hold a Mobile Depot.

In reality, T3's need their subsystems (and combination there of) to be extremely and carefully redesigned to:
A: be balanced at the level of power desired
B: be useful in any and all combinations at a desired/intended role
C: Allow the switching or remove rig slots

I would first look at the role for each subsystem/sub combination and figure out what they all should do.

Then I would address how powerful each rig should be

Then look at whether rigs are required or not.

A lot of the subs just need a tweak. Some are overpowered and some plane right useless or extremely niche. The racial specific subs should be available to all (eg Gravitational Capacitor would be nice on Loki/Legion)

Some of the rigs just don't make sense. I mean an Augmented Cap reservoir does not give you a larger cap pool. A cap regeneration matrix does though ??!! Daft stuff like that are just stupid things.

Should T3's be at a power level between T1 and T2? Only if someone fits them for multi role. When you combine subs for a super specialized role you should get better than T2 out of it.




there are 120 sub combinations per race(more if you now mix and match racial subs) so testing every combination is not the best way to go about it


racial subs should stay racial other wise there is little factor in choosing a base hull it becomes harder to balance and one hull will come out on top where the others see little use


a fully dedicated t3 being better than t2 is the situation we have now and its not a good one you. if i can make a T3 do a niche job better than the T2 that is meant to do it then why do i ever use the T2.


I still feel T3s should be just above T1 unless they are overheating



If you don't consider all the combinations then something bad might happen during the balance that would get overlooked. You can't just do jobs by half. Do it properly.

Why use T2 over T3? Skills, risk of SP loss and cost.

A T3 costs about 2-3x more than a T2.

Also the same argument can be made in the opposite direction. If my super specialized T3 design is outclassed by a T2 why would I ever fly a T3. You might as well just delete them from the game then.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2015-01-28 11:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

there are 120 sub combinations per race(more if you now mix and match racial subs) so testing every combination is not the best way to go about it

It's 1024 subsystem combinations per race, most of them are just fail fits from the start due to fitting problems or terrible slot layout, or both.

IMO T3s should be a fully functional ship before any subsystems are added on and the sub systems simply modify the ship rather than define it.

(Very) Rough example:

Proteus
6H 4M 6L (5 Turret Hard points, 0 Launcher Hard points)
Armor 2200, Shield 1400, Hull 2400
Power Grid 1000, CPU 350
Drone 50Mbps, 200m3 bay

From here if you added a Drone Synthesis Projector it would modify the hull by adding;

-1 High Slot, -1 Turret Hard point
+100% Drone Bandwidth
+10% Drone Damage Per Level of Gallente Offensive Subsystems
+7.5% Drone HP per level of Gallente Offensive Subsystems


Spugg Galdon wrote:

Why use T2 over T3?

Because it is often easier to carry around some extra modules and a few subsystems than another entire ship.
Though I don't think T3 should be at the same level as T1 but they should be slightly worse than T2, strong enough to make them desirable but not obsoleting T2 ships.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Alexis Nightwish
#44 - 2015-01-28 18:38:51 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Wait so low SP characters who don't have the ability to fly t2 ships will somehow have all the skills for a t3 and all the skills for the subsystems, and all the subsystem skills trained to a reasonable level, despite the fact that if you have the skills for t3's you are 85% of the way to most of the t2's?
Since Cruiser V is the lion's share of the SP needed to fly both T2 and T3, with the other skills being core skills that should be trained by everyone, this argument doesn't hold.

Anhenka wrote:
Also the swap between PvE and PvP at safespots is unlikely, because people are far more likely to just have one ship for PvP, and another for PvE, and it still takes less effort to just dock and jump in the other one than swap anything. You don't want to lose your PvP ship and your way of earning more money to buy another PvP ship at the same time after all. Plus lets face it, t3's are extremely medicore for most PvE.
I don't have spare ships in every system that I can swap to at a moment's notice, and neither does anyone else. Also, the statement that T3s are mediocre for PvE shows that you haven't used them, or at least seen them used for PvE.

Anhenka wrote:
Pre-combat swapping to engage certain gangs is iffy at best, since 99% of the time, the modifications you would choose to do pre-fight is all in the modules, not the subsystems. And we can already do that with depots. Unless you are switching to or from a travel fit to a combat fit, but that's not enough to stimulate hotswapping and t3 use much.
This is precisely my argument: the subs are grossly unbalanced with only a few being worth using (and those few are very OP) so everyone flies with those. There's no desire to swap subsystems while in space because why would anyone want to when they're already flying the optimal build for every situation?

Anhenka wrote:
And lastly, while t3 frigs, BC, and BS's might eventually come out, changing t3's in such a way that it immediate crashes WH space while hoping and betting that demand for ships that may never come out will be high enough to let WH space recover at that time is an incredibly bad idea.
Shift the cost from the subs to the hull. T2s cost just under 200m unfitted. If T3s hulls were around 100m, and the subs around 10m each, the cost of a T3 with some subs for swapping to would have a similar cost.

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