These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The games position on scams

Author
KiaphasKain
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2015-01-13 20:00:33 UTC
P.S. You know what I dislike most about posts like these? I am also a new player, or rather I would rather say I have about 1 month playtime over a year period... I find the idea that some people want CCP to hold my hand and protect me to be especially insulting. Like I cant protect myself, that I need my mommy and daddy to watch over me. No thanks, if I wanted that I would go play WoW, SWTOR or whatever.

Stop trying to change my game for me.

/rant over

Apolagies to everyone else, I will stop posting now.
Dracones
Tarsis Inc
#22 - 2015-01-13 20:05:16 UTC
Different games have different rules and expectations to them. If I log into Counterstrike I don't complain I got killed by another player with a sniper rifle. That's just the nature of the game that other players will try to kill you with sniper rifles while you run around with a cheap SMG.

Eve as a game models a brutal universe full of large political alliances and capitalism run amok. There's a guy hanging out around every asteroid looking to sell you mining barge real cheap that fell off the back of a freighter. How players act in Eve has no relationship to how they are in real life.

It's a brutal stark world where pretty much anything goes and it has its own extremely detailed and well developed economy and ecosystem that actually runs really well.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#23 - 2015-01-13 20:06:01 UTC
Immersed Roflsausage wrote:
Some interesting points raised thanks. An expected cross section of the EVE population represented in this thread, and by that I mean the high proportion of sociopaths vs. normal people.

I happen to think that mild sociopathic behavior is nurtured by the mechanics of the game, in those people that would otherwise be decent people in real life, due to the pressures inherent in the artificial society and the anonymity provided by it.

For example, the ad hominem remark about my name indicating that I am immature and screaming to be scammed is just totally unnecessary, and frankly weird to me, but hey, this is the internet and I guess that is mild compared to some other pits on the net like 4chan. I hear often enough that you cant be a carebear in EVE and I totally get that, but reject it at the same time.

I understand the position of CCP, and that they wish to create a free space to allow emergent behavior, but what I do notice is a lack of that thing we have in real life, and that is accountability and consequence, there are no police there are no regulatory bodies that protect customers etc. and so they are creating all of the conditions for criminals to thrive but bring no conditions designed to impose consequence.

The only consequence that can ever arise is an alliance of the 'good' people rising up against the bad in a war, which I do find extremely fascinating as a thought and would love to see it happen and be a part of it!

I do also think that CCP is treading a fine line with encouraging real world fraud. They create the conditions under which a new player is likely to want to buy PLEX and so ISK to enhance their game experience and quite simply create dopamine releasing scenarios, it's MMORPG business model 101. They then allow / encourage in game behavior for players to steal ISK from those most vulnerable, who also happen to be those most likely to have spent money.

If CCP have to admit that they do not successfully police all of the real world ISK selling activity, then their failure to prohibit newbie scams (like the fake recruitment scam) is borderline contributing to fraudulent activity, real world.

You sir should take care not to abuse the altruists amongst us,
they are all that's between the rest of us and you.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#24 - 2015-01-13 20:20:41 UTC
Do you accuse people of being sociopaths when they use cunning to SLAUGHTER ALL OF YOUR PAWNS when you are playing them at chess? Do you then accuse them of regicide when they take your queen and king?

Of course not.

Don't accuse people of being sociopaths for using cunning to blow up or steal your internet spaceships. Be vigilant against the possibility of it happening. The most fun fight I have had in EVE was one I lost to a cunning trap from one of your 'sociopaths'.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-01-13 20:25:01 UTC
25th post to realise this was a troll?

Comments on the name itself but nobody realised that it was the big clue?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-01-13 20:38:48 UTC
Jasmin Molotov wrote:
You seem to have a few misconceptions about the game and the community.

Firstly, in no way is actual crime encouraged or tolerated by CCP. You can get scammed for in-game currency but any scam involving real life currency or assets is strictly forbidden and will have appropriate consequences if it is reported. Encouraging newbies to buy PLEX is a grey area and decided on a case by case basis (I'll be corrected if i'm wrong on this).


As sabriz already pointed out:

A. If a new player is stupid enough to dump money in the game for in game currency and then don't do research and fall for an obvious scam that is as old as EVE is...

Perfectly legal, it was all the choice of said character.


B. If a new player is "forced" to buy a PLEX so he can get the ISK to join and then is scammed. That isn't as you are "forcing" someone to use RL assets (in this case RL currenty).


So:

A recruiter saying: "Give us 500mil and you can join" > Legal

A recruiter saying: "Grab your CC, buy a PLEX and give us the ISK from it" > Not legal.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-01-13 20:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Immersed Roflsausage wrote:
Some interesting points raised thanks. An expected cross section of the EVE population represented in this thread, and by that I mean the high proportion of sociopaths vs. normal people.

I happen to think that mild sociopathic behavior is nurtured by the mechanics of the game, in those people that would otherwise be decent people in real life, due to the pressures inherent in the artificial society and the anonymity provided by it.

For example, the ad hominem remark about my name indicating that I am immature and screaming to be scammed is just totally unnecessary, and frankly weird to me, but hey, this is the internet and I guess that is mild compared to some other pits on the net like 4chan. I hear often enough that you cant be a carebear in EVE and I totally get that, but reject it at the same time.

I understand the position of CCP, and that they wish to create a free space to allow emergent behavior, but what I do notice is a lack of that thing we have in real life, and that is accountability and consequence, there are no police there are no regulatory bodies that protect customers etc. and so they are creating all of the conditions for criminals to thrive but bring no conditions designed to impose consequence.

The only consequence that can ever arise is an alliance of the 'good' people rising up against the bad in a war, which I do find extremely fascinating as a thought and would love to see it happen and be a part of it!

I do also think that CCP is treading a fine line with encouraging real world fraud. They create the conditions under which a new player is likely to want to buy PLEX and so ISK to enhance their game experience and quite simply create dopamine releasing scenarios, it's MMORPG business model 101. They then allow / encourage in game behavior for players to steal ISK from those most vulnerable, who also happen to be those most likely to have spent money.

If CCP have to admit that they do not successfully police all of the real world ISK selling activity, then their failure to prohibit newbie scams (like the fake recruitment scam) is borderline contributing to fraudulent activity, real world.



Lol


There is an ingame police...and it works exactly like RL police.

No police officer is going to protect you if some random stranger walks up to you and ask you for 100 Dollar so you can join their secret society...



All you say with this post:


WAAAH, I'M MAD CAUSE SOMEONE SCAMMED ME. CCP PROTECT ME!!!!11!!!11!

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-01-13 20:43:40 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Immersed Roflsausage wrote:
For example, the ad hominem remark about my name indicating that I am immature and screaming to be scammed is just totally unnecessary
Confirming I am a sociopath because I advised you your name would make me want to scam you. Roll

It's called an opinion, I may be wrong but I would like my fellow posters to tell me of the names posted in this thread, which one you would choose to target first?


You...so much more to gain from you then from "I can't think of a normal name" who recently was scammed out of 500mil.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-01-13 20:44:45 UTC
Quanah Comanche wrote:
OP is a space lawyer and knows of what he speaks! CCP has no idea what they are getting onto here! Eat the naive....


The only (former) space-lawyer I know about can't take booze and likes to dress up as a wizard during a large player meet up in IcelandBlink

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-01-13 20:46:08 UTC
KiaphasKain wrote:
P.S. You know what I dislike most about posts like these? I am also a new player, or rather I would rather say I have about 1 month playtime over a year period... I find the idea that some people want CCP to hold my hand and protect me to be especially insulting. Like I cant protect myself, that I need my mommy and daddy to watch over me. No thanks, if I wanted that I would go play WoW, SWTOR or whatever.

Stop trying to change my game for me.

/rant over

Apolagies to everyone else, I will stop posting now.


Okay, even as an atheist...


Amen Brother...Amen.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-01-13 20:47:40 UTC
Dracones wrote:
There's a guy hanging out around every asteroid looking to sell you mining barge real cheap that fell off the back of a freighter.


THAT would be a great profession.

Please, CCP add it. I will wear a trenchcoat with all kinds of ship that fell of the back of a freighter inside....

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Immersed Roflsausage
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#32 - 2015-01-13 22:18:02 UTC
Guys I am over it, it just got me thinking, if anything after initially making me rage, it also made me realise the potential of the interesting mechanics of the game and has encouraged me to want to skill up and learn so that I can get revenge.

As for the titles that I seem to have earned myself here "space" psychologist and "space" lawyer. If that's what it seems like then fine but these are opinions I have that happen to fit those two definitions, I appreciate the feedback but I've not actually seen anything that tells me why my assessment is not accurate, regarding the way that the in game crime can link to real world fraud, money in and money out, with the game mechanics in between to my mind still qualifies as fraud, even if it is very lose and so far conforms to real world legislation. I don't know how the law works, clearly, which is kind of the point of this thread so that I can be educated.

With regards to the sociopath accusation, I'm sorry but a quick search for the definition returns "a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience." I couldn't create a description for a great proportion of EVE players, members of this thread not excluded, that fits better. This is not a misconception, and I know this because I would not ever fit this description, even if the opportunity for me to do so existed, which of course it does. I will play the game in a manner that reflects my own pre-dispositions, and I don't think it is unreasonable to conclude that others do too. Therefore, those acting as per the sociopath definition in game, I think, have elements of the behavior in their own real world personality.

The thing that I find interesting is that the game funnels these people in to the same corp and you get a whole corp of these nasty people that enjoy inflicting misfortune on others and get great pleasure from it. As I said, I couldn't imagine a more unattractive place to be. (anticipating the response "then don't be there" - I know, I wont, I'm just pointing at it and being judgmental.)
Immersed Roflsausage
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#33 - 2015-01-13 22:24:27 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

You sir should take care not to abuse the altruists amongst us,
they are all that's between the rest of us and you.


How am I offending altruists? I am speaking specifically about the opposite to those people.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2015-01-13 22:39:40 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Dracones wrote:
There's a guy hanging out around every asteroid looking to sell you mining barge real cheap that fell off the back of a freighter.


THAT would be a great profession.

Please, CCP add it. I will wear a trenchcoat with all kinds of ship that fell of the back of a freighter inside....


Any self respecting purveyor of mining vessels and modules also shoots the occasional miner with an alt to drum up more business. You may even potentially get to sell someone their own strip miner back.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-01-14 00:02:04 UTC
This whole game is about collecting tears from others, whether you do it directly by shooting them or indirectly by funding the people who shoot.

Don't try and lie, you will smile when you see that 1bil+ killmail that you know you had a hand in.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#36 - 2015-01-14 00:04:11 UTC
Quote:
The games position on scams


The game has no position on scams.

The game doesn't scam. The players do.

Mr Epeen Cool
Immersed Roflsausage
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#37 - 2015-01-14 00:17:59 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
This whole game is about collecting tears from others, whether you do it directly by shooting them or indirectly by funding the people who shoot.

Don't try and lie, you will smile when you see that 1bil+ killmail that you know you had a hand in.


Yes of course I would, but that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
Roel Yento
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2015-01-14 00:25:29 UTC
@OP, social norms are defined by your social group. So what is acceptable in their group may not align to how you feel. Does not mean they have ASPD (anti-social personality disorder) or sociopathy as you refer to it.

Another point is their behavior was not technically criminal since in New Eden there is no law against the scamming they did. Basically if someone doesn't get a security status hit or criminal flag for something they are within the law. Goons also own their own space and thus make the laws in their land. I would assume they have no law against scamming either. If they did that person would face consequences for scamming you.

Also, many tribes, kingdoms, nations, and companies have been built by people who were willing to take advantage of other people or it's own people for personal gain. If it wasn't for those people, you wouldn't live in your safe country that has laws to protect you from other bad men... for a mere 25% or so of your pay. Good luck building an empire to destroy all the evil doers of New Eden being the nice guy who cares about how everyone feels.

Last thing, you don't have enough info on someone to say they have anti social personality disorder, best not to through atound labels when you don't even know how to diagnose somone.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#39 - 2015-01-14 00:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
J'Poll wrote:
Immersed Roflsausage wrote:
Some interesting points raised thanks. An expected cross section of the EVE population represented in this thread, and by that I mean the high proportion of sociopaths vs. normal people.

I happen to think that mild sociopathic behavior is nurtured by the mechanics of the game, in those people that would otherwise be decent people in real life, due to the pressures inherent in the artificial society and the anonymity provided by it.

For example, the ad hominem remark about my name indicating that I am immature and screaming to be scammed is just totally unnecessary, and frankly weird to me, but hey, this is the internet and I guess that is mild compared to some other pits on the net like 4chan. I hear often enough that you cant be a carebear in EVE and I totally get that, but reject it at the same time.

I understand the position of CCP, and that they wish to create a free space to allow emergent behavior, but what I do notice is a lack of that thing we have in real life, and that is accountability and consequence, there are no police there are no regulatory bodies that protect customers etc. and so they are creating all of the conditions for criminals to thrive but bring no conditions designed to impose consequence.

The only consequence that can ever arise is an alliance of the 'good' people rising up against the bad in a war, which I do find extremely fascinating as a thought and would love to see it happen and be a part of it!

I do also think that CCP is treading a fine line with encouraging real world fraud. They create the conditions under which a new player is likely to want to buy PLEX and so ISK to enhance their game experience and quite simply create dopamine releasing scenarios, it's MMORPG business model 101. They then allow / encourage in game behavior for players to steal ISK from those most vulnerable, who also happen to be those most likely to have spent money.

If CCP have to admit that they do not successfully police all of the real world ISK selling activity, then their failure to prohibit newbie scams (like the fake recruitment scam) is borderline contributing to fraudulent activity, real world.



Lol


There is an ingame police...and it works exactly like RL police.

No police officer is going to protect you if some random stranger walks up to you and ask you for 100 Dollar so you can join their secret society...



All you say with this post:


WAAAH, I'M MAD CAUSE SOMEONE SCAMMED ME. CCP PROTECT ME!!!!11!!!11!



IRL that last situation is probably illegal. In Australia at least, you'd face a civil lawsuit if you tried an RL equivalent of the Goon recruitment scam; maybe even fraud charges or employment law breaches.

But you know what else is illegal IRL? Finding a drug trafficker (an RL equivalent of the Serpentis), going into one of their facilities as a private citizen, and murdering everyone there, combatant or not. That's what mission runners do, and it would get you life in prison IRL. Some of the empire vs empire missions would even earn you a date at the Hague.

In game morality and RL morality are totally different, because in-game actions do not have life-destroying repercussions. I feel more remorse for yelling at someone in anger IRL than I ever would over actions in-game.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Candi LeMew
Division 13
#40 - 2015-01-14 00:45:04 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Do you accuse people of being sociopaths when they use cunning to SLAUGHTER ALL OF YOUR PAWNS when you are playing them at chess? Do you then accuse them of regicide when they take your queen and king?

Of course not.

Don't accuse people of being sociopaths for using cunning to blow up or steal your internet spaceships. Be vigilant against the possibility of it happening. The most fun fight I have had in EVE was one I lost to a cunning trap from one of your 'sociopaths'.

This is a really good post tbh.

🍌

Remember... in Anoikis Bob Is Always Watching...

"I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James