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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Author
Gelatine
EverBroke Geeks
#121 - 2015-01-11 04:47:43 UTC
I've thought for a while now that long term cloaking should consume some kind of fuel (and if I had my way that fuel would be illegal in high sec,) however that was before the input automation ban - isboxer bomber wings were one of the reasons I took a break. As things are right now the thing that concerns me about cloaky combat ships are they favour the predator a little too much in my opinion (and also the idle who don't have to pee into a bucket when in fleet like I do.) We surely want pilots on grid not docked up in fear of a hotdrop.

I propose that there should be a cloaky frigate that can light a cyno (not covert cyno - there are other ships already for that,) be immune from appearing in local, but cannot do anything else. I approve of getting fleets to face off, but I've lived through noob PvP tutorial fleets being abandoned because of the risk of skilled cloaked bombers hanging about looking for noob tears (OT that poor FC later on in the week had 20 odd noobs NOT shooting the primary - or anything. "Guys will you shoot the nado" he says after calling it primary a number of times, and nothing happens until someone pipes up "what's a nado I can't see one on my overview?" FC says while facepalming "the Tornado guys, shoot the ******* Tornado! ")

I think there should be a penalty to sig radius too on anything coming through a cyno briefly.

In any case, being afk undocked should leave you vulnerable whether you are cloaked or not. I support those who are proposing a hunter killer destroyer or something similar.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#122 - 2015-01-11 05:52:54 UTC
My 2c
I think the main issue is that an AFK Player can effect the play of active players. So wouldn't the easiest change to be to auto kick players from the server after X Minutes/Hour/s of inactivity? Have the implementation Client side so that there is no extra strain on the servers, this would effectively reduce the strain on the servers especially places like Jita where lots of people have an alt sitting there just to check prices on the random occasion that they want to check it(frankly these people should just use Eve-Central or other out of game services just to check a price) Hopefully with the CREST updates this will become more accurate anyways.
Minxee
Perkone
Caldari State
#123 - 2015-01-11 10:26:08 UTC
I have always proposed that people who complain about cloakers (afk or otherwise since you never know) need to GTFO of 0.0 and move into empire. There they will find a lot of players and may get ganked by someone and cry more about it.

If you cant get a gang up to trap said cloaker if he isn't afk with your bait ratting ship you are in a fail alliance and should leave it.

EVE is a game of PVP be it in game or physiological or meta. Get used to it bro.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#124 - 2015-01-11 14:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Bullet Therapist wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


It is local chat?

And, for extra credit, is it local chat in conjunction with the ability to set players blue and therefore immediately identify any and all potential threats via their lack of being blue?
A star, for you Sir. (Plus a space like)

Now isn't it a little odd that those asking for cloaking nerfs, ignore the main issue? One would think balance would involve all the mechanics and change them together, to reach the best outcome.


So, I'm guessing you want to remove gate flash too, and watch listing?

It's only an issue for you, and if you have that much of a problem with local move to WH space, which, by the way, the denizens of often go to extreme lengths to see just who is in their space. Remove local and the focus changes to watching gates and watch lists and whats funny about all of this, is that of the two, local is never going to be nerfed in k-space Big smile no matter how much you whine about it while afk cloaking stands a good chance of being changed.
Then you would again be wrong, even if you were guessing.

It's not an issue for me, as I like the current situation. Lived in null for years and never once was troubled by AFK cloakers.
But cloaking for long periods of time, seems to be a problem for you. But I do like the line, 'move to WH space'. Yea that will most definitely fix all the whining. Oh wait, I'm not the one asking for change.

Your problem is not understanding the whole problem some have here. This isn't just about cloaks. Do you know you can AFK without a cloak and gain the same psychological effect? Shouldn't that alone speak volumes? Or are you going to remain ignorant of all the mechanics involved and concentration on only one?

If any changes need to be done, to stop people feeling unsafe. (Heaven forbid that, especially in null) Then the changes need to come in a package.
This package should include cloaks, local and new ways of gaining intel. Simply nerfing cloaks will not stop the whining, as they are not the main issue.

This is not as simply as you would like. It involves local, sov space and cloaks and the misguided belief that because you have sov, you should be able to find whomever shows up in local chat.
We don't have this problem in low sec, people don't have it in high sec, or in WH space, or NPC null for that matter.

Like I said, I really like the current situation. I feel it adds a layer of psychological game play, many games lack. But if there needs to be change, then all the mechanics involved need change at the same time. CCP have been wanting local gone for years. You say that's never going to happen, I'm not sure I'd be that certain tbh. But hey, good luck.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Giribaldi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#125 - 2015-01-11 14:12:57 UTC
What my purposed counter to cloaky campers while not affecting non cloakies to much would be to release multiple kinds of deplogables.

What I mean is make a scan probe that can only dscan cloakies and have a better scan str then normal probes, this will give u there location but will unlikely Declan them upon warping there, at this point you have a bomb like ammo that will act like a bomb but instead of deal damage it will Decloak anything within a 15 km range of the probe, it acts like a bomb so it shoots out of ur ship and explodes after a set time, I believe this to be a great idea
kelvin oriley
Caldari Deep Space Ventures
#126 - 2015-01-11 16:06:52 UTC
i think everyone is missing the point here

cloaking in a system for intell and fear tactics is not a bad thing infact they are used in modern war they are a constant reminder that we are not safe at all times this is not a bad thing

the problem is in its current fourm it breakes two of the unwritten laws of eve online the two laws that makes this game what it is and why so many people love this game


golden eve laws

#1 no matter how effective your ship is at doing what you want it to do there is allways a way to counter it
# 2 eve in not easy

these rules forces the players to be constantly developing and rethinking there tactics

the cloaking mecanic is broken in its current foum its only counter is to get within 2k of the cloaked ship and with safe spots so easy to create the chances o getting with a few au is impossible not alone getting to within 2k making the intell gathering easy

as for a fix for this there has been lots of ideas some sound good some terrible i dont pretend to know what would be best

the fact that it is not on the cards to be looked at is some what of a troubling thought

kelvin oriley
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#127 - 2015-01-11 18:28:46 UTC
*BzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZ*



OH!
Corinne Avuli
Herzogs Bombshelter
#128 - 2015-01-11 19:16:09 UTC
I think no one should get an advantage during their AFK time. No AFK mining (bot), no AFK Ratting (bot), no obvious harrassement. How a fix is supplyed is up to CCP. I do not want to elaborate it.

I saw it often that a cloaky camper in 0.0 is compared to a possible camper in a WH, and that the one in the WH is much more trouble. I absolutly see no evidence in that.

Small comparison.

0.0:

  • Local clear + scouts in surounding systems + no logged off campers known + no WHs in system--> care bear paradise
  • cloaky guy in local --> info garthering + increasing fear of hotdrop -->
    1. Big entity ignores it and prepares for counterdrop
    2. Small entity is too afraid to do anything and does nothing while camper is in system <-- Haressment succesfull


WH:

  • People accept the possibility of a potential thread before they enter WH
  • People don't know if there is a camper, but adapt to the possibilty and treat the situation as there is indead a camper present.
  • WH entries become closed, uncloseable WHs get bubbled and put under supervision.


Would the removal of the local in 0.0 fix the threat a cloaky gives you, compared to the mechanics a WH gives you to minimize the threat?
Answer it yourself.
Alexis Nightwish
#129 - 2015-01-11 19:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
As much as I despise local for it's 100% risk and effort free intel, and would love its abolition, I don't think that local is the problem in regards to cloaking. Cynos are the problem. Specifically their instantaneous nature. If there was a delay before the cyno became jump-to-able I don't think there'd be an issue as defenders would actually have a chance to react.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

GordonO
BURN EDEN
#130 - 2015-01-11 19:58:38 UTC
CrookedSpike wrote:
T2 Probes.

They are handled like combat probes, but they are big to carry in cargo (I'm thinking 10m3 each). They have a scan time of 2 minutes, after skills.

They can scan cloaked ships, but due to the long duration scan time, if someone who is cloaked is actually at the keyboard, they can dscan to see them and take defensive action, while anyone afk can be seen, decloaked and killed.

Even if someone is moving while afk, you bookmark the location from one scan, rescan, warp, bookmark and you can see the direction of travel for the afk cloaky and can move to decloak.


This is a great idea.
You cant afk autopilot in HS.. why should you be allowed to afk cloak. Everyone goes on about EVE is a sandbox and is all about risk... being able to stay cloaked for 23hrs introduces not risk or content.

... What next ??

Freeze3371
#131 - 2015-01-11 21:27:55 UTC
AFK cloaking is pretty OK right now. But if you want to have the things which you talk about in your CSM Minutes you will need to make it possible to counter it. Maybe some sort of system wide cloak breaker or something.
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#132 - 2015-01-11 21:52:28 UTC
Corinne Avuli wrote:
I think no one should get an advantage during their AFK time. No AFK mining (bot), no AFK Ratting (bot), no obvious harrassement. How a fix is supplyed is up to CCP. I do not want to elaborate it.

I saw it often that a cloaky camper in 0.0 is compared to a possible camper in a WH, and that the one in the WH is much more trouble. I absolutly see no evidence in that.

Small comparison.

0.0:

  • Local clear + scouts in surounding systems + no logged off campers known + no WHs in system--> care bear paradise
  • cloaky guy in local --> info garthering + increasing fear of hotdrop -->
    1. Big entity ignores it and prepares for counterdrop
    2. Small entity is too afraid to do anything and does nothing while camper is in system <-- Haressment succesfull


WH:

  • People accept the possibility of a potential thread before they enter WH
  • People don't know if there is a camper, but adapt to the possibilty and treat the situation as there is indead a camper present.
  • WH entries become closed, uncloseable WHs get bubbled and put under supervision.


Would the removal of the local in 0.0 fix the threat a cloaky gives you, compared to the mechanics a WH gives you to minimize the threat?
Answer it yourself.


Yes, they would accept the possibility that no such thing as carebear paradise exists in EVE, and would adapt to the possibility that there is a camper present.



Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#133 - 2015-01-11 22:32:11 UTC
Corinne Avuli wrote:
I think no one should get an advantage during their AFK time. No AFK mining (bot), no AFK Ratting (bot), no obvious harrassement.


CCP already has you covered. No one can activate any other module while cloaked.

While cloaked in a safe and afk, they might as well just be docked up for all that they can actually hurt you.

Now, if you're suggesting that CCP should ever make any mechanical change based on how some people choose to react to the metagame... then you're completely wrong.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2015-01-11 23:53:08 UTC
The way way to counter AFK cloaking is by ignoring them.
Also this.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Corinne Avuli
Herzogs Bombshelter
#135 - 2015-01-12 00:12:19 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Corinne Avuli wrote:
snip


Yes, they would accept the possibility that no such thing as carebear paradise exists in EVE, and would adapt to the possibility that there is a camper present.





They would adept in what kind of sense? By doing nothing? In a WH a small corp is able to ignore a camper by working together. In 0.0 a camper enables the possible entry to a bigger entity. So even if you have the members to kill a small fleet, you do not have enough for the BOps or other bridged gang. Which makes an AFK cloaky camper just harassment, which is uncounterable nor avoidable, like in a WH environment.

I am in love with EVE because it is complex chess, even so some parties end up more like rugby with every player having a baseball bat. Still, there should be a way to make it safer by teamwork, like in WH. But in 0.0 it is not possible if you are 10-30 people (4-6 simultanly online).

I don't care how it could be achieved to make it harder for a cloaky to harass a group without any risk of losing the used ship, but i would embrace it.
Mario Putzo
#136 - 2015-01-12 01:16:06 UTC
Corinne Avuli wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
Corinne Avuli wrote:
snip


Yes, they would accept the possibility that no such thing as carebear paradise exists in EVE, and would adapt to the possibility that there is a camper present.





I don't care how it could be achieved to make it harder for a cloaky to harass a group without any risk of losing the used ship, but i would embrace it.



Its simple. Get rid of local. If you don't know anyone is there than there is no threat right.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#137 - 2015-01-12 01:28:03 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Then you would again be wrong, even if you were guessing.

It's not an issue for me, as I like the current situation. Lived in null for years and never once was troubled by AFK cloakers.
But cloaking for long periods of time, seems to be a problem for you. But I do like the line, 'move to WH space'. Yea that will most definitely fix all the whining. Oh wait, I'm not the one asking for change.

Your problem is not understanding the whole problem some have here. This isn't just about cloaks. Do you know you can AFK without a cloak and gain the same psychological effect? Shouldn't that alone speak volumes? Or are you going to remain ignorant of all the mechanics involved and concentration on only one?

If any changes need to be done, to stop people feeling unsafe. (Heaven forbid that, especially in null) Then the changes need to come in a package.
This package should include cloaks, local and new ways of gaining intel. Simply nerfing cloaks will not stop the whining, as they are not the main issue.

This is not as simply as you would like. It involves local, sov space and cloaks and the misguided belief that because you have sov, you should be able to find whomever shows up in local chat.
We don't have this problem in low sec, people don't have it in high sec, or in WH space, or NPC null for that matter.

Like I said, I really like the current situation. I feel it adds a layer of psychological game play, many games lack. But if there needs to be change, then all the mechanics involved need change at the same time. CCP have been wanting local gone for years. You say that's never going to happen, I'm not sure I'd be that certain tbh. But hey, good luck.


The only problem I have with afk cloaking is that cloakers are safe for an indefinate period of time after they've cloaked up. That's it.

So far all that I've seen you do is try to piggy back a nerf local thread on top of a 'let's exam cloaking' thread and tell me I'm missing the point. I'll retort the same because I don't think you're making the connection between risk and reward as a part of player's behavior. Cloakers stand to lose next to nothing while gleaning intel at least as, and possibly much more valuable than even the intel available from local, watchlisting, or locator agents.

Breaking it all down most of the intelligence gathering methods in this game are moderate to zero risk activities, and even those that come with some risk usually don't incur substantial loss if the intel op somehow falls apart, such as a scouting interceptor being caught by a gatecamp or even a cloaky alt derping it and warping on top of a hostile pos and decloaking on a can or some other foolishness. Does this need to be changed? Maybe, I'll come back to it in a couple of paragraphs.

The difference though from the above mentioned intel tools, and why cloaking can be viewed somewhat seperately, is that a cloaked alt gives the attacker an opportunity to discern the intent, composition, and vulnerability of an opponent, completely at his own leisure and the ability to strike at the time of his choosing. The quality of the intelligence and window of opportunity provided by a cloaked alt is simply too large relative to the risk he places himself in.

Even if local was nerfed in K-space, cloaked alts would remain powerful tools; they're not just an implement of psychological warfare like you're trying to spin it. They would still provide all of the benefits I mentioned above, and would be handicapped by the loss of local to exactly the same degree that all of the other residents of that system were. The loss of local could also remove the metagame activity of baiting a cyno ship, as the presence of a known hot dropper and expensive black ops ships is a powerful incentive to entice aggression; but it is to some extent (though not entirely) predicated on knowledge of the presence of the hotdropper.

In w-space right now can they provide a virtually permanent foothold in a system, though in reality their strength is somewhat diminished by not being able to cyno in friendly ships- they have to utilize probes (revealing at a minimum their presence) and defenders must enter through a wormhole, giving defenders at least a few moments to scramble a response. It's not a lot of time, but in combination with bubbles and careful observation defenders at least have much more time to react than many null players can expect.

In NPC space a player has other tools available that don't require local or even a cloaked alt, namely the stations themselves. Even without a guest list a player simply needs to undock and d-scan, there's a risk that someone may see him undock or catch him on d-scan, but the window of opportunity is short and only scales with time spent in space and the number of players in system- even so it's such a low hanging fruit who's purpose overlaps the cloaky alt that it's strong enough to virtually exclude it. Cloaked alts are still useful, but NPC stations themselves are incredibly powerful and for certain activities, much more powerful than a POS or an outpost.

I do agree that all intelligence gathering tools should have the quality of the intelligence they provide correlated to the risk associated with the particular practice. I don't agree though that cloaking is intrinsically linked to local or even other forms of intel. It's a powerful and widespread enough tool that it deserves special-case attention and a degree of segregation from local.

Mario Putzo
#138 - 2015-01-12 01:44:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Bullet Therapist wrote:

The only problem I have with afk cloaking is that cloakers are safe for an indefinate period of time after they've cloaked up. That's it.



Do you feel that you would be more comfortable in:

A) Knowing someone was in system AFK and cloaked.
B) Or not knowing if someone is in system AFK and cloaked.

How do you know these people are AFK?

How do you feel about Local Chat?

A) I Like it a lot, I use it for all my intel.
B) I don't really need it.


What do you think came first?

A) The Chicken.
B) The Egg.

If you didn't have Local Chat how would you determine an AFK Cloaker?

A) I would watch the gate on an alt or have a friend do it to see who comes in and out of system.
B) I would stay docked up.
C) No one is in local but me, I can rat rat rat.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2015-01-12 01:59:24 UTC
I like the idea the thread is Sicky, Though some form of crowd sourcing drill down data base would be nice to discuss a topic..

Anyways I always loved the U boat or Ping idea. Though on the other hind I would love to see an increase of power to the cloaker - The ability to to use another modual to cloak from local as well.

This would mean a U boat would have to search system to find a target to try to find. Allowing the Cloaker to set up a trap waiting for some one to come into his web.

In the hunt for submarines you never if one was near by untill it fired it's first torpedo unless you had spent the resources to bring in the U-Boat to detect . Even then if the Sub was powered down in the right spot it might be able to go undetected.

I would love anomolies even asterioud belts be areas were a cloaker could make it more difficult for U-Boats to find the cloaker. The asteriod belts could have the astriods move. so orbiting or staying still in the astriod belt could eventually mean you would get decloaked by a moving astriod. Oh the cat and mouse games, especially with wardecks and highsec.

The jumping into a system and suddenly popping up in local may require a special ship or modual that delays popping up in local. Maybe a Cloak tackler ship. Meant to tackle, but can't carry a cyno. This ship would be launched with the U-Boat ship.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Chad Wylder
Rusty Bucket Bay
#140 - 2015-01-12 02:06:43 UTC
After a pilot has been cloaked and has not warped for 5 minutes, the following happens:
A) They disappear from local
B) They lose access to local intel (if people talk in local they can see it, but they don't have a list of pilots that are in local)

If the cloaked player drops cloak or initiates warp, they become visible in local again and their own local is restored. Moving around on grid does not affect their local status in any way, only warping.


+ Doesn't affect wormholes.
+ May give a small amount of warning to locals when a pilot stops being AFK, depending on where the cloaker decides to lie in wait.
+ Alternatively if a cloaker picks a good spot then they could surprise unsuspecting players who feel safe and aren't paying attention to/don't have access to earlier intel.


I have no clue whatsoever if this is possible from a programming standpoint.