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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9701 - 2017-05-22 00:08:57 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking provides no gameplay, it only prevents it.


How does cloaking prevent you from undocking, ratting, mining or PvPing? Explain the mechanics of how it prevents any of those please.


Well, you see if you can't locate a ship in space, you can't PvP it. Pretty obvious, really

Neither can he pvp you until he decloaks. You didn't answer the question. Explain the mechanics that prevent you from undocking and ratting (we all know you don't do pvp).



RIght. Cloaking prevents him from playing, and prevents anyone from playing with him.

They provide no gameplay in and of themselves, only prevent it.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9702 - 2017-05-22 01:10:24 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking provides no gameplay, it only prevents it.


How does cloaking prevent you from undocking, ratting, mining or PvPing? Explain the mechanics of how it prevents any of those please.


Well, you see if you can't locate a ship in space, you can't PvP it. Pretty obvious, really

Neither can he pvp you until he decloaks. You didn't answer the question. Explain the mechanics that prevent you from undocking and ratting (we all know you don't do pvp).



RIght. Cloaking prevents him from playing, and prevents anyone from playing with him.

They provide no gameplay in and of themselves, only prevent it.


This is simply not true. You can play while cloaked. Lots of players do it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9703 - 2017-05-22 05:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Linus Gorp
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking provides no gameplay, it only prevents it.


How does cloaking prevent you from undocking, ratting, mining or PvPing? Explain the mechanics of how it prevents any of those please.


Well, you see if you can't locate a ship in space, you can't PvP it. Pretty obvious, really

Neither can he pvp you until he decloaks. You didn't answer the question. Explain the mechanics that prevent you from undocking and ratting (we all know you don't do pvp).



RIght. Cloaking prevents him from playing, and prevents anyone from playing with him.

They provide no gameplay in and of themselves, only prevent it.

Your crying repeats itself and you still haven't answered Sonya's question. Explain the mechanics.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#9704 - 2017-05-22 05:33:49 UTC
PvP, by the mere threat of dropping a cyno the player while AFK and you not knowing that he is ATK or not is doing PvP, area denial while AFK is PvP and therefore needs a counter, CCP have realised that and it is coming.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9705 - 2017-05-22 05:58:20 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
PvP, by the mere threat of dropping a cyno the player while AFK and you not knowing that he is ATK or not is doing PvP, area denial while AFK is PvP and therefore needs a counter, CCP have realised that and it is coming.


And so is a counter to local.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
BiBaBumm
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9706 - 2017-05-22 06:54:59 UTC
SGT FUNYOUN wrote:
[quote=Ines Tegator]There is no way to address cloaking without breaking the gameplay cloaking provides. Depth charges, fuel, capacitor, whatever, all undermine both the defense purpose of cloaking and the recon purpose, not to mention the "I have to take a bio break" aspect. Besides, cloaking is not the problem. The problem is with Local. A cloaker who is truly afk is harmless in every way. His only power is in making you paranoid.

Option 1: Remove cloakers from local:
-solves problem.
-creates new problems, such as surprise cynos.
-reduces the value of nullsec by making it more like wormholes.
-not a good idea.

Option 2: Remove inactive cloakers from local:
-solves problem
-makes local EVEN BETTER intel, since it will tell you whether a cloaker is active or not.
-much better then option 1, though still not ideal.

Option 3: Completely overhaul Local, Dscan, and Intel gathering in general.
-solves problem
-takes a lot of work
-updates EVE gameplay by 10 years. yay.
-new system may be worse then old one (ccp has a very bad track record on UI issues).
-UPDATE: I put together some suggestions on how to to do this.

Honestly, I can't decide whether to push the issue or not. The status quo is, at the least, reliably quo. Pushing for change in such a core aspect of gameplay may just lead to trouble. On the other hand, Local as an intel tool is stupid and Dscan is decades out of date as a gameplay feature.



It´s a crap solution.
1 - AFK or on the screen ? Doesn´t fix a thing
2 - Tooo powerfull since a cloak applies on every ship
3 - Best to happen... in some way
BiBaBumm
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9707 - 2017-05-22 07:03:20 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
PvP, by the mere threat of dropping a cyno the player while AFK and you not knowing that he is ATK or not is doing PvP, area denial while AFK is PvP and therefore needs a counter, CCP have realised that and it is coming.


And so is a counter to local.


The problem is the imbalanced efford on both sides :

1 - AFK cloakys

Attackers:
warping to the system - logging in - doing nothing.
sometimes check D-Scan / warp to mining anomalies. 5-10min a day
When you found something, go on comms call your droppers and a mining fleet or something is gone...
Much time to form for all, takes some minutes, high effective

Defender:
Having a standing Fleet near the system with 20+ players


Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9708 - 2017-05-22 07:16:40 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:



RIght. Cloaking prevents him from playing, and prevents anyone from playing with him.

They provide no gameplay in and of themselves, only prevent it.

Your crying repeats itself and you still haven't answered Sonya's question. Explain the mechanics.



Nope, her question is inherently flawed as it assumes someone doesn't want to pvp with the threat in system. It's just hurf blurf because she can't counter the point any other way.

Cloaking doesn't prevent PvE, but that's not all the gameplay that there is.
Paige Booker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9709 - 2017-05-22 07:17:23 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
PvP, by the mere threat of dropping a cyno the player while AFK and you not knowing that he is ATK or not is doing PvP, area denial while AFK is PvP and therefore needs a counter, CCP have realised that and it is coming.


And so is a counter to local.


Sorry, this thread is massive, and apart from some very high-level speculation at a Fanfest a few years back, what has CCP said definitively about changes coming to cloak and local? If you have a link to something that'd be really cool. I'd love to see some change in this part of the game.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9710 - 2017-05-22 07:22:34 UTC
BiBaBumm wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
PvP, by the mere threat of dropping a cyno the player while AFK and you not knowing that he is ATK or not is doing PvP, area denial while AFK is PvP and therefore needs a counter, CCP have realised that and it is coming.


And so is a counter to local.


The problem is the imbalanced efford on both sides :

1 - AFK cloakys

Attackers:
warping to the system - logging in - doing nothing.
sometimes check D-Scan / warp to mining anomalies. 5-10min a day
When you found something, go on comms call your droppers and a mining fleet or something is gone...
Much time to form for all, takes some minutes, high effective

Defender:
Having a standing Fleet near the system with 20+ players




You miss apprehend....I am suggesting that cloaks become some how scannable (say via probes if you linger too long at a safe) but at the same time local is gone and replaced by an structure that can be taken down by a hostile entity unless the locals defend it. Failure to defend could lead to all of their space being with out any intel network at all.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9711 - 2017-05-22 07:26:27 UTC
Paige Booker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
PvP, by the mere threat of dropping a cyno the player while AFK and you not knowing that he is ATK or not is doing PvP, area denial while AFK is PvP and therefore needs a counter, CCP have realised that and it is coming.


And so is a counter to local.


Sorry, this thread is massive, and apart from some very high-level speculation at a Fanfest a few years back, what has CCP said definitively about changes coming to cloak and local? If you have a link to something that'd be really cool. I'd love to see some change in this part of the game.



Definitively? Nothing at all.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9712 - 2017-05-22 07:29:45 UTC
Paige Booker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
PvP, by the mere threat of dropping a cyno the player while AFK and you not knowing that he is ATK or not is doing PvP, area denial while AFK is PvP and therefore needs a counter, CCP have realised that and it is coming.


And so is a counter to local.


Sorry, this thread is massive, and apart from some very high-level speculation at a Fanfest a few years back, what has CCP said definitively about changes coming to cloak and local? If you have a link to something that'd be really cool. I'd love to see some change in this part of the game.



Drac has been carrying on about some super sekret intel he acquired from sources unknown for a bit now. Far as anyone else knows it's vapor and a bad attempt at boasting.

Dev's don't care about this.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9713 - 2017-05-22 07:39:26 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Drac has been carrying on about some super sekret intel he acquired from sources unknown for a bit now. Far as anyone else knows it's vapor and a bad attempt at boasting.

It's a classic Dracvlad.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
Dev's don't care about this.

Wrong. It's just that unlike you, the devs understand that the problem is local and not cloaking.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9714 - 2017-05-22 08:02:47 UTC
Well, demonstrably it's not a problem with Local. That's been discussed quite a bit. Your issues with local only appear once people put forth massive efforts in clearing it and keeping it clear---thus your problem is with player efforts that you don't like, not local.

I don't see, and have not seen in the past 10 years, even the first hint that the Devs care about this issue at all. They continuously dodge every question about it by either flatly ignoring it or giving flippant nonsensical answers and half hints, all the while no changes are made to anything.

If Local were a problem, that could be addressed. They don't bother, because they don't care about it. Same with cloaks, despite having so many new posters open threads that we wound up here unlike any other issue in all of EVE. They don't address it, because the don't care.

At the end of the day, the Devs do not care about this issue. At all.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9715 - 2017-05-22 08:24:33 UTC
Oh Mike. It baffles me how you can be so limited and delusional.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9716 - 2017-05-22 08:28:25 UTC
Really? Demonstrate how it is that Local is the problem when it's exactly the same in High, Low and Null Sec, without taking into account the efforts in clearing it and keeping it clear.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9717 - 2017-05-22 08:30:40 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Really? Demonstrate how it is that Local is the problem when it's exactly the same in High, Low and Null Sec, without taking into account the efforts in clearing it and keeping it clear.


Because people in HS are not going to just warp in on you and start shooting. LS and NS use local differently than people in HS. Because of the mechanical differences between HS and LS/NS and also due to population levels. You know this, but you pretend otherwise because it suits you to be intellectually dishonest.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#9718 - 2017-05-22 08:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Paige Booker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
PvP, by the mere threat of dropping a cyno the player while AFK and you not knowing that he is ATK or not is doing PvP, area denial while AFK is PvP and therefore needs a counter, CCP have realised that and it is coming.


And so is a counter to local.


Sorry, this thread is massive, and apart from some very high-level speculation at a Fanfest a few years back, what has CCP said definitively about changes coming to cloak and local? If you have a link to something that'd be really cool. I'd love to see some change in this part of the game.



Drac has been carrying on about some super sekret intel he acquired from sources unknown for a bit now. Far as anyone else knows it's vapor and a bad attempt at boasting.

Dev's don't care about this.


Not secret, a dev let out that they are going to go with the de-cloak wave with a long cool down, I was told this by a CEO of one of the corps in my alliance and he was pretty clear that it was legit, I don't have a link though. CCP of course could change their mind on this, but CCP also have plans to have in sov space local supplied by an OA so all this talk about local by the lazy cloaky campers means jack. However CCP are as always not moving very quickly on this, but it is coming.

AFK cloaky camping generally impacts newer players and that realisation has hit home on CCP. So CCP realised that this AFK play directly hurts player retention and that is the important part.

I will be happy because I can go kill the AFK ones and I can bait out the ATK ones, I regret the loss of the cloak as a safety mechanism for being called away RL but that is life...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9719 - 2017-05-22 08:34:20 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Well, demonstrably it's not a problem with Local. That's been discussed quite a bit. Your issues with local only appear once people put forth massive efforts in clearing it and keeping it clear---thus your problem is with player efforts that you don't like, not local.

I don't see, and have not seen in the past 10 years, even the first hint that the Devs care about this issue at all. They continuously dodge every question about it by either flatly ignoring it or giving flippant nonsensical answers and half hints, all the while no changes are made to anything.

If Local were a problem, that could be addressed. They don't bother, because they don't care about it. Same with cloaks, despite having so many new posters open threads that we wound up here unlike any other issue in all of EVE. They don't address it, because the don't care.

At the end of the day, the Devs do not care about this issue. At all.


There is no "effort in clearing it"--i.e. local. In NS local is generally clear due to the mechanical differences between HS and NS. A player can move form one HS system to another with relative impunity. This is not at all true in NS. You pretend that this difference does not exist because it suits your false narrative.

The reality is that local is not the same in HS and NS. In the former unless you are at war or are mining in anything other than a proc or skiff local is largely useless. In NS it is extremely useful. You know this.

In short Mike you are simply lying.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9720 - 2017-05-22 08:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dracvlad wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Paige Booker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
PvP, by the mere threat of dropping a cyno the player while AFK and you not knowing that he is ATK or not is doing PvP, area denial while AFK is PvP and therefore needs a counter, CCP have realised that and it is coming.


And so is a counter to local.


Sorry, this thread is massive, and apart from some very high-level speculation at a Fanfest a few years back, what has CCP said definitively about changes coming to cloak and local? If you have a link to something that'd be really cool. I'd love to see some change in this part of the game.



Drac has been carrying on about some super sekret intel he acquired from sources unknown for a bit now. Far as anyone else knows it's vapor and a bad attempt at boasting.

Dev's don't care about this.


Not secret, a dev let out that they are going to go with the de-cloak wave with a long cool down, I was told this by a CEO of one of the corps in my alliance and he was pretty clear that it was legit, I don't have a link though. CCP of course could change their mind on this, but CCP also have plans to have in sov space local supplied by an OA so all this talk about local by the lazy cloaky campers means jack. However CCP are as always not moving very quickly on this, but it is coming.

AFK cloaky camping generally impacts newer players and that realisation has hit home on CCP. So CCP realised that this AFK play directly hurts player retention and that is the important part.

I will be happy because I can go kill the AFK ones and I can bait out the ATK ones, I regret the loss of the cloak as a safety mechanism for being called away RL but that is life...



A friend of a buddy told me his brother talked to a guy who knows a Dev who told him that AFK cloaking will be dealt with.

Classic Dracvlad attention whoring. Roll

Edit: And yeah, new players are out there in NS ratting away. Roll

You won't kill anything dope. Even if this went live, which I doubt as it is just you crying for attention, people would simply stop AFK cloaking.

You always were a liar.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online