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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#9681 - 2017-05-14 12:25:16 UTC
Mag's didn't QQ no. Just left one day.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
SGT FUNYOUN
Elysian Space Navy - 1st Fleet
#9682 - 2017-05-20 01:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: SGT FUNYOUN
Ines Tegator wrote:
There is no way to address cloaking without breaking the gameplay cloaking provides. Depth charges, fuel, capacitor, whatever, all undermine both the defense purpose of cloaking and the recon purpose, not to mention the "I have to take a bio break" aspect. Besides, cloaking is not the problem. The problem is with Local. A cloaker who is truly afk is harmless in every way. His only power is in making you paranoid.

Option 1: Remove cloakers from local:
-solves problem.
-creates new problems, such as surprise cynos.
-reduces the value of nullsec by making it more like wormholes.
-not a good idea.

Option 2: Remove inactive cloakers from local:
-solves problem
-makes local EVEN BETTER intel, since it will tell you whether a cloaker is active or not.
-much better then option 1, though still not ideal.

Option 3: Completely overhaul Local, Dscan, and Intel gathering in general.
-solves problem
-takes a lot of work
-updates EVE gameplay by 10 years. yay.
-new system may be worse then old one (ccp has a very bad track record on UI issues).
-UPDATE: I put together some suggestions on how to to do this.

Honestly, I can't decide whether to push the issue or not. The status quo is, at the least, reliably quo. Pushing for change in such a core aspect of gameplay may just lead to trouble. On the other hand, Local as an intel tool is stupid and Dscan is decades out of date as a gameplay feature.



Yup!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leave my cloak alone... it is the best part of this game. Without it I might as well be playing WoW or Star Trek something or another.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9683 - 2017-05-21 00:14:18 UTC
SGT FUNYOUN wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:
There is no way to address cloaking without breaking the gameplay cloaking provides. Depth charges, fuel, capacitor, whatever, all undermine both the defense purpose of cloaking and the recon purpose, not to mention the "I have to take a bio break" aspect. Besides, cloaking is not the problem. The problem is with Local. A cloaker who is truly afk is harmless in every way. His only power is in making you paranoid.

Option 1: Remove cloakers from local:
-solves problem.
-creates new problems, such as surprise cynos.
-reduces the value of nullsec by making it more like wormholes.
-not a good idea.

Option 2: Remove inactive cloakers from local:
-solves problem
-makes local EVEN BETTER intel, since it will tell you whether a cloaker is active or not.
-much better then option 1, though still not ideal.

Option 3: Completely overhaul Local, Dscan, and Intel gathering in general.
-solves problem
-takes a lot of work
-updates EVE gameplay by 10 years. yay.
-new system may be worse then old one (ccp has a very bad track record on UI issues).
-UPDATE: I put together some suggestions on how to to do this.

Honestly, I can't decide whether to push the issue or not. The status quo is, at the least, reliably quo. Pushing for change in such a core aspect of gameplay may just lead to trouble. On the other hand, Local as an intel tool is stupid and Dscan is decades out of date as a gameplay feature.



Yup!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leave my cloak alone... it is the best part of this game. Without it I might as well be playing WoW or Star Trek something or another.


Cloaking provides no gameplay, it only prevents it.

The defense is too strong so long as it stretches into infinity under any circumstances, much less such easily contrived circumstances. Most suggestions touch on the recon purpose minimally if at all. The bio-break aspect is just a stupid thing to even try to argue as everyone needs to pee but not everyone fits a cloak.

Cloaking is absolutely the problem. Problems with local can be discussed in their own thread.

The status of a ship in space is irrelevant in every way, if it's not in a dock or other intentionally safe area, it needs to be subject to PvP. Even the power to provoke paranoia is too much for a ship so safe it can go afk without fear of reprisal indefinitely.

Option 1:Remove cloakers from local:
-solves no problem
-creates new problems, such as surprise cynos.
-reduces the value of nullsec by making it more like wormholes.
-not a good idea
-Irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

Option 2:Remove inactive cloakers from local:
-solves no problem
-makes local EVEN BETTER intel, since it will tell you whether a cloaker is active or not.
-still irrelevant.

Option 3:Completely overhaul Local, Dscan, and Intel gathering in general.
May solve problem. Should allow for stealth gameplay without introducing a binary system that results in defaut win condition for one side over the other. Not really a solution to anything in particular as it's just vague wishlisting.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#9684 - 2017-05-21 01:27:49 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking provides no gameplay, it only prevents it.


How does cloaking prevent you from undocking, ratting, mining or PvPing? Explain the mechanics of how it prevents any of those please.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9685 - 2017-05-21 04:07:01 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Cloaking provides no gameplay, it only prevents it.


Not true, active cloaking allows for game play. Lurking up on a ratter or miner who is not paying attention? Somebody who wants to do exploration in NS? Somebody running goods for sale out to NPC NS?

Next attempt to make a nonsensical statement.

Also, bet Dracvlad loves your post. The guy is such a nitwit.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9686 - 2017-05-21 04:08:39 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking provides no gameplay, it only prevents it.


How does cloaking prevent you from undocking, ratting, mining or PvPing? Explain the mechanics of how it prevents any of those please.


Well...you see, because Mike, et. al. are so scared they simply turn off their computers lest you do something like start posting on their Facebook embarrassing things or something...IDK, it is hard to figure out what has them so scared. Maybe we should set up a Go Fund Me for them so we can send them plenty of sheets they can hide under.....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9687 - 2017-05-21 05:56:58 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking is absolutely the problem. Problems with local can be discussed in their own thread.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
-makes local EVEN BETTER intel, since it will tell you whether a cloaker is active or not.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
Option 3:Completely overhaul Local, Dscan, and Intel gathering in general.
May solve problem. Should allow for stealth gameplay without introducing a binary system that results in defaut win condition for one side over the other. Not really a solution to anything in particular as it's just vague wishlisting.


I'm puzzled. First you tell us how cloaking is the problem and not local and then you go on about how local is a insane intel tool that shouldn't be buffed and then propose overhauling it.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/12/ca/22/12ca22cbd40a6858c7316a575a1d5ed6.jpg

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9688 - 2017-05-21 06:16:24 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking is absolutely the problem. Problems with local can be discussed in their own thread.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
-makes local EVEN BETTER intel, since it will tell you whether a cloaker is active or not.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
Option 3:Completely overhaul Local, Dscan, and Intel gathering in general.
May solve problem. Should allow for stealth gameplay without introducing a binary system that results in defaut win condition for one side over the other. Not really a solution to anything in particular as it's just vague wishlisting.


I'm puzzled. First you tell us how cloaking is the problem and not local and then you go on about how local is a insane intel tool that shouldn't be buffed and then propose overhauling it.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/12/ca/22/12ca22cbd40a6858c7316a575a1d5ed6.jpg


Please. Stop being so hyper focused on logic, consistency and coherent arguments. Don't you know AFK cloaking is killing the game?!?!!?!??

These guys keep scrabbling around looking for an argument, any argument, to justify nerfing cloaks.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9689 - 2017-05-21 06:26:01 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking is absolutely the problem. Problems with local can be discussed in their own thread.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
-makes local EVEN BETTER intel, since it will tell you whether a cloaker is active or not.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
Option 3:Completely overhaul Local, Dscan, and Intel gathering in general.
May solve problem. Should allow for stealth gameplay without introducing a binary system that results in defaut win condition for one side over the other. Not really a solution to anything in particular as it's just vague wishlisting.


I'm puzzled. First you tell us how cloaking is the problem and not local and then you go on about how local is a insane intel tool that shouldn't be buffed and then propose overhauling it.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/12/ca/22/12ca22cbd40a6858c7316a575a1d5ed6.jpg


Please. Stop being so hyper focused on logic, consistency and coherent arguments. Don't you know AFK cloaking is killing the game?!?!!?!??

These guys keep scrabbling around looking for an argument, any argument, to justify nerfing cloaks.

Of course they are. Hello Kitty Online would be a more fitting game for them.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9690 - 2017-05-21 07:18:51 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking provides no gameplay, it only prevents it.


How does cloaking prevent you from undocking, ratting, mining or PvPing? Explain the mechanics of how it prevents any of those please.


Well, you see if you can't locate a ship in space, you can't PvP it. Pretty obvious, really
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#9691 - 2017-05-21 07:21:00 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking is absolutely the problem. Problems with local can be discussed in their own thread.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
-makes local EVEN BETTER intel, since it will tell you whether a cloaker is active or not.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
Option 3:Completely overhaul Local, Dscan, and Intel gathering in general.
May solve problem. Should allow for stealth gameplay without introducing a binary system that results in defaut win condition for one side over the other. Not really a solution to anything in particular as it's just vague wishlisting.


I'm puzzled. First you tell us how cloaking is the problem and not local and then you go on about how local is a insane intel tool that shouldn't be buffed and then propose overhauling it.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/12/ca/22/12ca22cbd40a6858c7316a575a1d5ed6.jpg


You clearly didn't see what I did there. How sad. Toddlers grasp it.

Also, I didn't claim local was an insane tool that must never be buffed. I just agree that that particular change would buff it. Reading comprehension for the win.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9692 - 2017-05-21 07:30:06 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking is absolutely the problem. Problems with local can be discussed in their own thread.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
-makes local EVEN BETTER intel, since it will tell you whether a cloaker is active or not.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
Option 3:Completely overhaul Local, Dscan, and Intel gathering in general.
May solve problem. Should allow for stealth gameplay without introducing a binary system that results in defaut win condition for one side over the other. Not really a solution to anything in particular as it's just vague wishlisting.


I'm puzzled. First you tell us how cloaking is the problem and not local and then you go on about how local is a insane intel tool that shouldn't be buffed and then propose overhauling it.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/12/ca/22/12ca22cbd40a6858c7316a575a1d5ed6.jpg


You clearly didn't see what I did there. How sad. Toddlers grasp it.

Also, I didn't claim local was an insane tool that must never be buffed. I just agree that that particular change would buff it. Reading comprehension for the win.


Oh no Mike we grasped it. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want local and you want to remove the only counter to it so you can return to NS and rat in near absolute safety...never mind that you can have that already if you simple pay attention.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9693 - 2017-05-21 14:26:09 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Even the power to provoke paranoia is too much for a ship so safe it can go afk without fear of reprisal indefinitely.


And this says it all. The issue here is not the actual capabilities of a cloaked ship, it's that pathetic carebears are terrified by the presence of a cloaked ship and unable to cope psychologically with it. And that is not a reason to make balance changes.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9694 - 2017-05-21 14:33:14 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking provides no gameplay, it only prevents it.


How does cloaking prevent you from undocking, ratting, mining or PvPing? Explain the mechanics of how it prevents any of those please.


Well, you see if you can't locate a ship in space, you can't PvP it. Pretty obvious, really

Neither can he pvp you until he decloaks. You didn't answer the question. Explain the mechanics that prevent you from undocking and ratting (we all know you don't do pvp).

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#9695 - 2017-05-21 16:10:32 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:

Neither can he pvp you until he decloaks. You didn't answer the question. Explain the mechanics that prevent you from undocking and ratting (we all know you don't do pvp).



Uhm actually you are wrong about that...if the theory such as in Mittani not needing to log in to play the game rings true.

If it does not ring true, then sure i can agree then that AFK cloaky has no more affect than some metagame Leadership has on other players.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9696 - 2017-05-21 16:25:44 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:

Neither can he pvp you until he decloaks. You didn't answer the question. Explain the mechanics that prevent you from undocking and ratting (we all know you don't do pvp).



Uhm actually you are wrong about that...if the theory such as in Mittani not needing to log in to play the game rings true.

If it does not ring true, then sure i can agree then that AFK cloaky has no more affect than some metagame Leadership has on other players.

Mittani isn't playing the game. All he does is manage his RMT cartel and give a speech every now and then.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#9697 - 2017-05-21 16:54:28 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:

Neither can he pvp you until he decloaks. You didn't answer the question. Explain the mechanics that prevent you from undocking and ratting (we all know you don't do pvp).



Uhm actually you are wrong about that...if the theory such as in Mittani not needing to log in to play the game rings true.

If it does not ring true, then sure i can agree then that AFK cloaky has no more affect than some metagame Leadership has on other players.

Mittani isn't playing the game. All he does is manage his RMT cartel and give a speech every now and then.



Hmmm, so managing Goons without logging in.......is not relevant to affects on other players/groups how exactly? (and this goes for any other group managed in such a way)
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9698 - 2017-05-21 17:22:06 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:

Neither can he pvp you until he decloaks. You didn't answer the question. Explain the mechanics that prevent you from undocking and ratting (we all know you don't do pvp).



Uhm actually you are wrong about that...if the theory such as in Mittani not needing to log in to play the game rings true.

If it does not ring true, then sure i can agree then that AFK cloaky has no more affect than some metagame Leadership has on other players.

Mittani isn't playing the game. All he does is manage his RMT cartel and give a speech every now and then.



Hmmm, so managing Goons without logging in.......is not relevant to affects on other players/groups how exactly? (and this goes for any other group managed in such a way)

You posed the question if Mittani is playing the game without logging in. He isn't, because for that he'd have to log in and sit in front of his computer.
I also wouldn't claim that he's managing Goons. Everyone with half a clue knows that Mittani is just a charismatic talker and not more. People may see him as the leadership figure, but it's other people making the smart and important decisions. He just takes credit for them.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9699 - 2017-05-21 18:34:01 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking provides no gameplay, it only prevents it.


How does cloaking prevent you from undocking, ratting, mining or PvPing? Explain the mechanics of how it prevents any of those please.


Well, you see if you can't locate a ship in space, you can't PvP it. Pretty obvious, really


You aren't talking about PvP anymore than we are when we (facetiously) talk about having an undock button to force players in station and AFK to undock. Really, stop talking out of your ass.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9700 - 2017-05-21 18:37:05 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:

Neither can he pvp you until he decloaks. You didn't answer the question. Explain the mechanics that prevent you from undocking and ratting (we all know you don't do pvp).



Uhm actually you are wrong about that...if the theory such as in Mittani not needing to log in to play the game rings true.

If it does not ring true, then sure i can agree then that AFK cloaky has no more affect than some metagame Leadership has on other players.

Mittani isn't playing the game. All he does is manage his RMT cartel and give a speech every now and then.



Hmmm, so managing Goons without logging in.......is not relevant to affects on other players/groups how exactly? (and this goes for any other group managed in such a way)


Can you stop it with these false equivalences please? Seriously, the Mittani running Goons is like AFK cloaking?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online