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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Tessa Sage
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#9601 - 2017-05-12 05:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tessa Sage
Merin Ryskin wrote:
just dock in a station 23/7


That uses up more RAM, and with the latest sound fixups, involves a less desirable all-day background noise.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9602 - 2017-05-12 05:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
Tessa Sage wrote:
That uses up more RAM, and with the latest sound fixups, involves a less desirable all-day background noise.


You know you can selectively mute specific programs, right? Mute your local alts, keep everything else at normal volume. As for RAM, I suppose that depends on your computer specs. But since the intel alt doesn't have to actually do anything it doesn't really matter how poor performance is. Get alliance members to throw some alts on their old PCs and you have an intel network.

And don't forget that if you dock instead of cloaking you can do it with a horde of alpha accounts, saving a lot of money.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9603 - 2017-05-12 06:30:18 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
Xcom wrote:
If there is truth about random characters spread around drone space logging traffic. Then it would make AFK cloaking an even worse mechanic. Without a single input into the client to stay cloaked would make it extremely easy to create monitoring bots which would be impossible to detect. Double edged sword that basically piggybacks on AFK cloaking.

Cloaking is by far the most destructive feature that punishes active gameplay. Only people that benefits are the ones abusing it, the type of players that abuse passive AFK gameplay.

Without local intel, intel bots wouldn't work and we wouldn't have to resort to afk cloaking to beat a perfect intel tool and said intel bots.

Local is the problem and CCP knows it.


CCP not dealing with bots is the problem...

Its technically impossible to detect client side bots that don't send any packets to the server. If you only monitor what the client receives then your 100% safe from detection. Just SS, cloak and start monitoring the packets received from the server. Just use any packet sniffing tool like Wireshark or any external tool that doesn't even involve modifying the client. All you would have to figure out is how to decrypt the packets, which any botter would be able to figure out with a de-compiled client.

AFK cloaking is literally a perfect botting mechanic to mentor over a system, 100% undetectable.


Never go full ******.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9604 - 2017-05-12 06:58:17 UTC
Tessa Sage wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
just dock in a station 23/7


That uses up more RAM, and with the latest sound fixups, involves a less desirable all-day background noise.

EVE has sound?

Xcom wrote:
All you would have to figure out is how to decrypt the packets, which any botter would be able to figure out with a de-compiled client.

Thanks for letting us know that you have zero understanding about cryptography either.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9605 - 2017-05-12 07:30:03 UTC
Xcom wrote:

Its technically impossible to detect client side bots that don't send any packets to the server. If you only monitor what the client receives then your 100% safe from detection. Just SS, cloak and start monitoring the packets received from the server. Just use any packet sniffing tool like Wireshark or any external tool that doesn't even involve modifying the client. All you would have to figure out is how to decrypt the packets, which any botter would be able to figure out with a de-compiled client.

AFK cloaking is literally a perfect botting mechanic to mentor over a system, 100% undetectable.



A: Your client sends and receives packets as soon as it connects, if they arn't then guess what. "You are disconnected mate, please check your internet connection and try again."

B: All bots...Are client side.

C: So....What are your saying is reverse engineer the software. (Which breaks TOS.)

D: Symmetric key algorithms are like the worst encryption keys you can deal with, asymmetric keys are far more fun, and far harder to decrypt. (Which means the encryption key for the server, and the encryption key for the client are two different keys.)

E: Also the server doesn't tell your client everything, it only shares information that it feels in needed for you to interface, so you know... Your client isn't actually receiving information about said cloaker, because the server calculations say, by all accounts, you can't see him/her.

F: Stop spouting out drivel if you don't actually know what you are talking about. :)

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#9606 - 2017-05-12 07:31:51 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Thanks for letting us know that you have zero understanding about cryptography either.
lol there is no cryptography involved. A decompiled client is all you need, but sure your the expert right?
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#9607 - 2017-05-12 07:36:43 UTC
Maria Dragoon wrote:
Xcom wrote:

Its technically impossible to detect client side bots that don't send any packets to the server. If you only monitor what the client receives then your 100% safe from detection. Just SS, cloak and start monitoring the packets received from the server. Just use any packet sniffing tool like Wireshark or any external tool that doesn't even involve modifying the client. All you would have to figure out is how to decrypt the packets, which any botter would be able to figure out with a de-compiled client.

AFK cloaking is literally a perfect botting mechanic to mentor over a system, 100% undetectable.



A: Your client sends and receives packets as soon as it connects, if they arn't then guess what. "You are disconnected mate, please check your internet connection and try again."

B: All bots...Are client side.

C: So....What are your saying is reverse engineer the software. (Which breaks TOS.)

D: Symmetric key algorithms are like the worst encryption keys you can deal with, asymmetric keys are far more fun, and far harder to decrypt. (Which means the encryption key for the server, and the encryption key for the client are two different keys.)

E: Also the server doesn't tell your client everything, it only shares information that it feels in needed for you to interface, so you know... Your client isn't actually receiving information about said cloaker, because the server calculations say, by all accounts, you can't see him/her.

F: Stop spouting out drivel if you don't actually know what you are talking about. :)

Dude what are you on about. The client sits in space cloaked and acts as a dummy client. You just have to either use packets or direct data from the client to figure out whos in local. You don't need to do any decryption. There are enough bots in the game and a bunch of random characters in drone space to hint that this is actually being done already.
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9608 - 2017-05-12 07:47:23 UTC
Xcom wrote:

Dude what are you on about. The client sits in space cloaked and acts as a dummy client. You just have to either use packets or direct data from the client to figure out whos in local. You don't need to do any decryption. There are enough bots in the game and a bunch of random characters in drone space to hint that this is actually being done already.


Refer back to F:

Now to answer your question, the client doesn't figure this stuff out, the client doesn't use packets to directly figure out who is in local, the SERVER handles that, when some cloaks, someone clicks an interface on the client, the client sends a packet to the server that says. "Hey! Client:Joe smo clicked: Action=ElmoCookies" The server then says. "What function is ElmoCookies?" The server checks the program and goes "HEY! I found ElmoCookies function, performing calculations inside Function(ElmoCookies)[code here]. Then the server says. "Hey! Send packet to Client: Joe smo to perform interface update=Cloak overlay"

Now this is like a SUPER OVER SIMPLIFIED version, but I do hope this educates you better on the simple life of server coding and game coding. Specially coding mmo games that do server side calculations (opposed to games that do client side calculations.)

Also even if you don't interface with your client at all, it still "talks" to the server and vis-versa, the server providing periodic packet updates.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#9609 - 2017-05-12 08:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Xcom
Does the client receive data from the server on who is in local? Yes or no.
If that data is presented to the client. Cant a 3rd party tool use that data somehow? or am I wrong?
Is it then possible to link the 3rd party tool to gather accurate intel in a system? intel that is used nonstop 237.

It sounds more like you just talk nonsense to confuse the matter.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9610 - 2017-05-12 08:04:40 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
Thanks for letting us know that you have zero understanding about cryptography either.
lol there is no cryptography involved. A decompiled client is all you need, but sure your the expert right?

Actually, I am. It's what I do for a living.

Maria Dragoon wrote:
D: Symmetric key algorithms are like the worst encryption keys you can deal with, asymmetric keys are far more fun, and far harder to decrypt. (Which means the encryption key for the server, and the encryption key for the client are two different keys.)

Another dummy with no clue. Take your own advice and don't talk about things you don't understand.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9611 - 2017-05-12 08:06:57 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Does the client receive data from the server on who is in local? Yes or no.
If that data is presented to the client. Cant a 3rd party tool use that data somehow? or am I wrong?
Is it then possible to link the 3rd party tool to gather accurate intel in a system? intel that is used nonstop 237.

It sounds more like you just talk nonsense to confuse the matter.

Hate to break it to you, but you're the one that keeps spitting out bullshit with every sentence you write.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#9612 - 2017-05-12 08:08:32 UTC
Maria Dragoon wrote:
Xcom wrote:

Dude what are you on about. The client sits in space cloaked and acts as a dummy client. You just have to either use packets or direct data from the client to figure out whos in local. You don't need to do any decryption. There are enough bots in the game and a bunch of random characters in drone space to hint that this is actually being done already.


Refer back to F:

Now to answer your question, the client doesn't figure this stuff out, the client doesn't use packets to directly figure out who is in local, the SERVER handles that, when some cloaks, someone clicks an interface on the client, the client sends a packet to the server that says. "Hey! Client:Joe smo clicked: Action=ElmoCookies" The server then says. "What function is ElmoCookies?" The server checks the program and goes "HEY! I found ElmoCookies function, performing calculations inside Function(ElmoCookies)[code here]. Then the server says. "Hey! Send packet to Client: Joe smo to perform interface update=Cloak overlay"

Now this is like a SUPER OVER SIMPLIFIED version, but I do hope this educates you better on the simple life of server coding and game coding. Specially coding mmo games that do server side calculations (opposed to games that do client side calculations.)

Also even if you don't interface with your client at all, it still "talks" to the server and vis-versa, the server providing periodic packet updates.


Not to get too far off the subject matter, this is not a trick question or anything like that, and I have no real idea what is involved in hacks, bots etc., but on three occasions I have been on grid with characters run by Russian players who are not reported in local, how would you say they did that. And please note that they have a decompiled copy of the client.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9613 - 2017-05-12 08:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Maria Dragoon
Xcom wrote:
Does the client receive data from the server on who is in local? Yes or no.
If that data is presented to the client. Cant a 3rd party use that data somehow? or am I wrong?
Is it then possible to link the 3rd party tool to gather accurate intel in a system? intel that is used nonstop 237.

It sounds more like you just talk nonsense to confuse the matter.


What you are asking is a loaded question.

The client receives the Server's interpretation of local. That means that the client sending information to the server that revolves around local will not be the same interpretation of the information it is receiving from the mechanic.

The second part "Can a 3rd party program use the data somehow?" Yes an no, at the same time. If you make a program from scratch, and demand information from the server, and the server is unable to recognize the program, the server will refuse to communicate with the server. (After all, allowing communication with an uncertified program is like.... A really big ******* security breach.)

Is it then possible to link the 3rd party tool to gather accurate intel in a system non-stop? Then answer is, without the client, No. With the client, only until you get caught, because the client, and the server can monitor the information that passes through it, to use chat, you are sending packets to the server, an someone that is sending generic copy and paste information through a chat channel every time a non-blue shows up in local, is highly likely to get you flagged as a bot.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9614 - 2017-05-12 08:14:13 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Maria Dragoon wrote:
Xcom wrote:

Dude what are you on about. The client sits in space cloaked and acts as a dummy client. You just have to either use packets or direct data from the client to figure out whos in local. You don't need to do any decryption. There are enough bots in the game and a bunch of random characters in drone space to hint that this is actually being done already.


Refer back to F:

Now to answer your question, the client doesn't figure this stuff out, the client doesn't use packets to directly figure out who is in local, the SERVER handles that, when some cloaks, someone clicks an interface on the client, the client sends a packet to the server that says. "Hey! Client:Joe smo clicked: Action=ElmoCookies" The server then says. "What function is ElmoCookies?" The server checks the program and goes "HEY! I found ElmoCookies function, performing calculations inside Function(ElmoCookies)[code here]. Then the server says. "Hey! Send packet to Client: Joe smo to perform interface update=Cloak overlay"

Now this is like a SUPER OVER SIMPLIFIED version, but I do hope this educates you better on the simple life of server coding and game coding. Specially coding mmo games that do server side calculations (opposed to games that do client side calculations.)

Also even if you don't interface with your client at all, it still "talks" to the server and vis-versa, the server providing periodic packet updates.


Not to get too far off the subject matter, this is not a trick question or anything like that, and I have no real idea what is involved in hacks, bots etc., but on three occasions I have been on grid with characters run by Russian players who are not reported in local, how would you say they did that. And please note that they have a decompiled copy of the client.


Some how, I highly doubt this actually ever happened. So to be frank, I'm going to simply call this out for what it is.

Bullshit.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9615 - 2017-05-12 08:16:18 UTC
Maria Dragoon wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Maria Dragoon wrote:
Xcom wrote:

Dude what are you on about. The client sits in space cloaked and acts as a dummy client. You just have to either use packets or direct data from the client to figure out whos in local. You don't need to do any decryption. There are enough bots in the game and a bunch of random characters in drone space to hint that this is actually being done already.


Refer back to F:

Now to answer your question, the client doesn't figure this stuff out, the client doesn't use packets to directly figure out who is in local, the SERVER handles that, when some cloaks, someone clicks an interface on the client, the client sends a packet to the server that says. "Hey! Client:Joe smo clicked: Action=ElmoCookies" The server then says. "What function is ElmoCookies?" The server checks the program and goes "HEY! I found ElmoCookies function, performing calculations inside Function(ElmoCookies)[code here]. Then the server says. "Hey! Send packet to Client: Joe smo to perform interface update=Cloak overlay"

Now this is like a SUPER OVER SIMPLIFIED version, but I do hope this educates you better on the simple life of server coding and game coding. Specially coding mmo games that do server side calculations (opposed to games that do client side calculations.)

Also even if you don't interface with your client at all, it still "talks" to the server and vis-versa, the server providing periodic packet updates.


Not to get too far off the subject matter, this is not a trick question or anything like that, and I have no real idea what is involved in hacks, bots etc., but on three occasions I have been on grid with characters run by Russian players who are not reported in local, how would you say they did that. And please note that they have a decompiled copy of the client.


Some how, I highly doubt this actually ever happened. So to be frank, I'm going to simply call this out for what it is.

Bullshit.

It's called login traps.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#9616 - 2017-05-12 08:18:55 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Maria Dragoon wrote:
Xcom wrote:

Dude what are you on about. The client sits in space cloaked and acts as a dummy client. You just have to either use packets or direct data from the client to figure out whos in local. You don't need to do any decryption. There are enough bots in the game and a bunch of random characters in drone space to hint that this is actually being done already.


Refer back to F:

Now to answer your question, the client doesn't figure this stuff out, the client doesn't use packets to directly figure out who is in local, the SERVER handles that, when some cloaks, someone clicks an interface on the client, the client sends a packet to the server that says. "Hey! Client:Joe smo clicked: Action=ElmoCookies" The server then says. "What function is ElmoCookies?" The server checks the program and goes "HEY! I found ElmoCookies function, performing calculations inside Function(ElmoCookies)[code here]. Then the server says. "Hey! Send packet to Client: Joe smo to perform interface update=Cloak overlay"

Now this is like a SUPER OVER SIMPLIFIED version, but I do hope this educates you better on the simple life of server coding and game coding. Specially coding mmo games that do server side calculations (opposed to games that do client side calculations.)

Also even if you don't interface with your client at all, it still "talks" to the server and vis-versa, the server providing periodic packet updates.


Not to get too far off the subject matter, this is not a trick question or anything like that, and I have no real idea what is involved in hacks, bots etc., but on three occasions I have been on grid with characters run by Russian players who are not reported in local, how would you say they did that. And please note that they have a decompiled copy of the client.

There probably was a server side bug. I don't think it would be possible to disappear from local using hacks without knowing the server code, which they don't have access too. Using any hacks in that manner would also lead to a swift ban with CCP logging and monitoring clients that behave odd. I am sure that they have safeguard that check for irregularity that might mean someones trying to send the server packets that the client usually doesn't send just to figure out what works and what doesn't.
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9617 - 2017-05-12 08:19:20 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:

It's called login traps.



Even with login traps, as soon as they log in, they pop up in local (Though you having enough time between them popping up in local an escaping is a different question.)

They are attempting to try and elude that you can hack the game an be ignored by local, they clearly don't know what they are talking about, an pulling crap out of their rears to make an argument that makes no damn sense.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#9618 - 2017-05-12 08:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Maria Dragoon wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Not to get too far off the subject matter, this is not a trick question or anything like that, and I have no real idea what is involved in hacks, bots etc., but on three occasions I have been on grid with characters run by Russian players who are not reported in local, how would you say they did that. And please note that they have a decompiled copy of the client.


Some how, I highly doubt this actually ever happened. So to be frank, I'm going to simply call this out for what it is.

Bullshit.


With that statement you just confirmed to me that you have no idea what you are talking about, why would I lie about something like that, what gain have I in this conversation for lying, and also when I am asking for your your opinion on it because you gave the impression you knew what you were talking about, I have to agree with Linus Gorp then about you not really having any idea.

Also I was in contact with CCP over them too, but I cannot talk more about that, but the last such event was in 2014.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9619 - 2017-05-12 08:23:46 UTC
Maria Dragoon wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:

It's called login traps.



Even with login traps, as soon as they log in, they pop up in local (Though you having enough time between them popping up in local an escaping is a different question.)

They are attempting to try and elude that you can hack the game an be ignored by local, they clearly don't know what they are talking about, an pulling crap out of their rears to make an argument that makes no damn sense.

Yes, that's a classic Dracvlad. He tries that all the time. But what he describes is a login trap where he hasn't been paying attention for the 3 to 5 seconds it takes a hunter to get back on grid after logging in.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#9620 - 2017-05-12 08:25:15 UTC
Maria Dragoon wrote:
Xcom wrote:
Does the client receive data from the server on who is in local? Yes or no.
If that data is presented to the client. Cant a 3rd party use that data somehow? or am I wrong?
Is it then possible to link the 3rd party tool to gather accurate intel in a system? intel that is used nonstop 237.

It sounds more like you just talk nonsense to confuse the matter.


What you are asking is a loaded question.

The client receives the Server's interpretation of local. That means that the client sending information to the server that revolves around local will not be the same interpretation of the information it is receiving from the mechanic.

The second part "Can a 3rd party program use the data somehow?" Yes an no, at the same time. If you make a program from scratch, and demand information from the server, and the server is unable to recognize the program, the server will refuse to communicate with the server. (After all, allowing communication with an uncertified program is like.... A really big ******* security breach.)

Is it then possible to link the 3rd party tool to gather accurate intel in a system non-stop? Then answer is, without the client, No. With the client, only until you get caught, because the client, and the server can monitor the information that passes through it, to use chat, you are sending packets to the server, an someone that is sending generic copy and paste information through a chat channel every time a non-blue shows up in local, is highly likely to get you flagged as a bot.

I honestly don't know what your trying to get to. Its simple, turn on the client. Client gets data from server, use the data to make monitoring bots. Easy and simple. No need to send the server anything. Thats why its bad having AFK clients logged in.

Stop trying to impress anyone with babble. Its not hard figuring out what data from the server is related to local. You isolate that data and use it.