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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#9481 - 2017-05-07 20:57:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


AFK cloaking only exists because we have to use that to counter local.



This makes no sense.
I am curious, if you are talking about nullsec, if you are not in friendly space then you need a place to dock up when going afk correct?
Ok, i get it....you can always log off as well if you can not dock up,
or return to a friendly port and dock up.
or call an end to your daily operations and return home, and dock up.

In any of those things, you are not logging in 1 hour before work/school, hitting cloak, then walking out the door for the entire day.
This type of action is senseless, stupid, wasteful on your electric bill(though albeit probably a very small amount), and basically shows how shallow and stupid you are.
It is this action since it is 100% non-counterable that many people object to.

Cloaking is not a counter to local, you are just lazy. lazy and lame.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9482 - 2017-05-07 23:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
Max Deveron wrote:
This makes no sense.


Then you obviously aren't paying attention, because it gets explained about once per page. But I guess I'll do it again:

The ONLY reason to stay logged in if you're going to go AFK is that local gives 100% accurate and instant knowledge of any unknown player in your system. If you're doing PvE in an empty system and see a non-blue player enter local you immediately warp out to a POS/station/safespot, and there is zero chance that the potential threat can locate you and get close enough to tackle you before you're in warp to 100% safety. So let's say you are hunting someone, but you need to go AFK for dinner. You log out, you disappear from local, and your target knows they are 100% safe again. When you come back and log in again you appear in local, giving your target that same warning to dock up and be 100% safe.

What staying logged in and cloaked at all times does is obscure your threat status and force your target into a difficult choice: keep their 100% safety but forfeit any chance at income, or take the risk that you might be actively hunting them and do their PvE despite seeing you in local. If you remove the ability to stay cloaked while AFK you remove that uncertainty, and return to the situation of local being a near-perfect warning tool.

If local did not exist there would be no need to worry about any of this. If you're going to go AFK you just log out, staying logged in accomplishes nothing.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9483 - 2017-05-08 02:44:24 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
This makes no sense.


Then you obviously aren't paying attention, because it gets explained about once per page. But I guess I'll do it again:

The ONLY reason to stay logged in if you're going to go AFK is that local gives 100% accurate and instant knowledge of any unknown player in your system. If you're doing PvE in an empty system and see a non-blue player enter local you immediately warp out to a POS/station/safespot, and there is zero chance that the potential threat can locate you and get close enough to tackle you before you're in warp to 100% safety. So let's say you are hunting someone, but you need to go AFK for dinner. You log out, you disappear from local, and your target knows they are 100% safe again. When you come back and log in again you appear in local, giving your target that same warning to dock up and be 100% safe.

What staying logged in and cloaked at all times does is obscure your threat status and force your target into a difficult choice: keep their 100% safety but forfeit any chance at income, or take the risk that you might be actively hunting them and do their PvE despite seeing you in local. If you remove the ability to stay cloaked while AFK you remove that uncertainty, and return to the situation of local being a near-perfect warning tool.

If local did not exist there would be no need to worry about any of this. If you're going to go AFK you just log out, staying logged in accomplishes nothing.


To add to this, upon entering a system you will always appear in local before you load the system so anyone paying attention is already reacting to your arrival before you can do anything.

The problem of local only gets bigger the larger the organisation gets. For example in the drone lands the area occupied by a single intel system is vast, the local population can spot you coming from up to 40 systems away which makes seeking up on them impossible. This is why AFK cloaking is a thing, it's the only counter we have to local based intel systems. It works by using local against the people using it as intel. Sitting in a system for several weeks at a time doing absolutely nothing some stop seeing you as a threat. It's far for perfect and entirely relies upon people not being in a standing defence fleet. It's not laziness it's literally our only counter to local based intel and require a large amount of time in which you cannot do anything.

Remove it without changing local and we are in a situation where it is impossible to catch the bulk of ratters out in null.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9484 - 2017-05-08 04:51:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The problem of local only gets bigger the larger the organisation gets. For example in the drone lands the area occupied by a single intel system is vast, the local population can spot you coming from up to 40 systems away which makes seeking up on them impossible.


And also as population density grows too. When you ahve 10+ in a single system all it takes if for 1 person to report you and there you go, everyone in that region looking at that channel knows where you are. Having knowledge of the systems 1 jump out from where you are ratting and you can start heading for safety before they even load grid in the system next door.

Local is "too good". So the response is AFK cloaking in an attempt to lure the player into a false sense of complacency. However that can take considerable time. And thus the rage posts that were a regular occurrence on PF&ID.


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#9485 - 2017-05-08 06:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
There are ways to get around local based intel and it requires people to actually report stuff. I noted some people talking about automated bots, rather like the ones PH use to report on Citadels being dropped in Perimeter but that is for CCP to sort out.

The simple fact is taht you ahve to use ships taht can get on people, and you are too lazy to do so, that is the issue. It is the same issue as WH players who just want to get out in their pimped T3 and slide up to someone like they do in WH space.

Basically lazy play...


AFK is the most stupid lazy play, mainly because you have failed to work out how to get people so you just leave a toon logged in to annoy them. CCP have finally decided to do something about it and will enable people to have a de- cloaking wave and those who are AFK will get blown up. You can still be AFK if you want but there is going to be a counter which is a damn good thing.

There is no issue with active camping and I have really enjoyed blowing up active campers recently in and around my current home base while being in home defence fleets that certain people seem to think I don't do.

AFK play is the issue and it is just AFK play for lazy players while they play other games and you lot try to defend the indefensible which suits your lazy play style, all I can say is go and concentrate on WOT's full time instead... and leave Eve to the players who want to actually play it...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9486 - 2017-05-08 06:58:31 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
There are ways to get around local based intel and it requires people to actually report stuff. I noted some people talking about automated bots, rather like the ones PH use to report on Citadels being dropped in Perimeter but that is for CCP to sort out.

The simple fact is taht you ahve to use ships taht can get on people, and you are too lazy to do so, that is the issue. It is the same issue as WH players who just want to get out in their pimped T3 and slide up to someone like they do in WH space.

Basically lazy play...


AFK is the most stupid lazy play, mainly because you have failed to work out how to get people so you just leave a toon logged in to annoy them. CCP have finally decided to do something about it and will enable people to have a de- cloaking wave and those who are AFK will get blown up. You can still be AFK if you want but there is going to be a counter which is a damn good thing.

There is no issue with active camping and I have really enjoyed blowing up active campers recently in and around my current home base while being in home defence fleets that certain people seem to think I don't do.

AFK play is the issue and it is just AFK play for lazy players while they play other games and you lot try to defend the indefensible which suits your lazy play style, all I can say is go and concentrate on WOT's full time instead... and leave Eve to the players who want to actually play it...


Roll

Whatever.

BTW, you have yet to refute the point I made that the proposal you supported effectively removes local when the player is using a force recon.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#9487 - 2017-05-08 07:48:09 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
BTW, you have yet to refute the point I made that the proposal you supported effectively removes local when the player is using a force recon.


I did .

It is there where I use the word compromise towards your issues even if I do not agree that local is an issue, the benefit would be using a ship that is not bubble immune. I would also suggest that there must be counter play against this capability, but in any case you only read what you want to read.

I think local is fine as it is, but I wish CCP would go after local reporting bots more aggressively, such as the ones PH use on Citadels being put up in Perimeter.


The issue is always AFK play...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9488 - 2017-05-08 07:57:34 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
BTW, you have yet to refute the point I made that the proposal you supported effectively removes local when the player is using a force recon.


I did .

It is there where I use the word compromise towards your issues even if I do not agree that local is an issue, the benefit would be using a ship that is not bubble immune. I would also suggest that there must be counter play against this capability, but in any case you only read what you want to read.

I think local is fine as it is, but I wish CCP would go after local reporting bots more aggressively, such as the ones PH use on Citadels being put up in Perimeter.


The issue is always AFK play...


No, no you didn't. In that post you have your usual insults and then simply a claim that local is not the issue and never has been the issue. That is not a refutation anymore than sticking your fingers in your ears and saying, "Nah nah nah I can't hear you," is a refutation.

The point is, that proposal effectively removes local for players using force recons and covert ops ships. You have no reply to that, and it completely undermines you position and supports ours.

Oh...and nice job with the blocking. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lavin C Borneol
Rapto Bonorum
#9489 - 2017-05-08 08:19:23 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


I think local is fine as it is, but I wish CCP would go after local reporting bots more aggressively, such as the ones PH use on Citadels being put up in Perimeter...


Say what? Shocked
Lavin C Borneol
Rapto Bonorum
#9490 - 2017-05-08 08:30:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Remove it without changing local and we are in a situation where it is impossible to catch the bulk of ratters out in null.


If I see a CONCORD police cruiser guarding the site of a recent gank attempt, I can wait about 10 or 15 minutes and they will warp off to some pre-scripted business. This is important if the targets naturally funnel to the same gank spot (stargates, undocks). Concordantly, fitting a covert ops and heading to null, the travel time, plus the time spent waiting for real persons to resume ratting or mining after reacting to my presence in local, it works well to be discrete and not camp local. First, the situation resolves itself a lot sooner if I am in logoff. I cannot compel people to forget I am blinking in their intel tool.

Being AFK while in system is extremely counter-intuitive, for instead of normal ratting resuming, they bring out bait ships and have cyno modules or are otherwise adding additional firepower outside of the local, perceivable environ. Instead, when I logoff, having bookmarked an ideal ambush spot, I can give them the benefit of the doubt. The cloak is great for travel, but not for setting up an inevitable kill. Refit that hislot Blink
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9491 - 2017-05-08 09:11:13 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
The simple fact is taht you ahve to use ships that can get on people


No such ship exists. No ship can locate a target, warp to it, and get tackle before the ship can escape (assuming they player is not stupid and starts to warp out as soon as you appear in local).

Quote:
You can still be AFK if you want but there is going to be a counter which is a damn good thing.


If all the AFK player can do is annoy you then why is it so important to have a counter?

And, again, how do you know that the players you have been annoyed by are AFK? How do you know they aren't just aware that you're trying to bait them and refusing to engage?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#9492 - 2017-05-08 09:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Lavin C Borneol wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


I think local is fine as it is, but I wish CCP would go after local reporting bots more aggressively, such as the ones PH use on Citadels being put up in Perimeter...


Say what? Shocked


Earlier in the thread one of the AFK = Local posters mentioned that many people use bots that automatically input local intel into intel chats, I was merely referring to one such bot type allegedly used by PH to keep tabs on Citadels being put up in Perimeter as a request for CCP to do their job on automated rubbish.

My alliance does not use any such rubbish, but their existence is often used by the AFK = Local posters to say that local must be removed, my reply is that CCP must do their jobs on bots.

I hope that clears up your confusion...


Teckos, I sometimes read your posts because while you are a troll you do actually have a brain at times, same is true of baltec1 whose presentation at Fanfest I really enjoyed. But my reply is there, you just choose to ignore it so you can make some troll like point for your own feeling of self worth.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Rolling on laughing
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9493 - 2017-05-08 10:19:35 UTC
You can´t simply pick 1 point in from an argument, when looking at game mechanics in eve.
Ist not the local, not thee afk, not the ...

It´s how everything works together.

The actual mechanic works, but i supports passive playing, which is my problem with it.
Low efford on one side, high risk on the other.

Active played should always beat passive playing. (my opinion)
So giving an Advantage to the recon, which makes it possible to find enemy targets and beeing to weak to kill them alone is a big thing for this. You Need no AFK cloaky, when nobady sees you. Deep null becomes more important, because beeing out of jump range is a thing then.

Proud member of NOTHING
Taliyah Riraille
Chroma Corp
Prismatic Legion
#9494 - 2017-05-08 11:19:39 UTC
I couldn't find this idea anywhere (not that I looked very hard lel) but maybe make a cyno interfere with a cloak in the same way as a second cloak and vice versa (even if one is offline). That way if the shrodingers camper /is/ at his/her computer and is setting up a hotdrop, they have to drop a mobile depo and refit making them visible on dscan and scannable for 5 minutes before the drop occurs... or have a friend bring the cyno into system for a faster hotdrop.

That way cloaky camping is still effective but an attentive player can respond to it when it's not afk instead of just not playing.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9495 - 2017-05-08 12:26:31 UTC
Taliyah Riraille wrote:
I couldn't find this idea anywhere (not that I looked very hard lel) but maybe make a cyno interfere with a cloak in the same way as a second cloak and vice versa (even if one is offline). That way if the shrodingers camper /is/ at his/her computer and is setting up a hotdrop, they have to drop a mobile depo and refit making them visible on dscan and scannable for 5 minutes before the drop occurs... or have a friend bring the cyno into system for a faster hotdrop.

That way cloaky camping is still effective but an attentive player can respond to it when it's not afk instead of just not playing.

That's easily one of the worst ideas in this thread and I won't even bother pointing out the why because it's just that bad.

Don't make suggestions on game mechanics you

  1. don't understand at all,
  2. have never interacted with.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9496 - 2017-05-08 14:04:17 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
There are ways to get around local based intel and it requires people to actually report stuff.


There are no ways around local, you cannot stop yourself from showing up in local the instant you enter the system. As for the second part, people will always report you, this has been the norm from day 1 of EVE 14 years ago.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9497 - 2017-05-08 14:08:46 UTC
Taliyah Riraille wrote:
I couldn't find this idea anywhere (not that I looked very hard lel) but maybe make a cyno interfere with a cloak in the same way as a second cloak and vice versa (even if one is offline). That way if the shrodingers camper /is/ at his/her computer and is setting up a hotdrop, they have to drop a mobile depo and refit making them visible on dscan and scannable for 5 minutes before the drop occurs... or have a friend bring the cyno into system for a faster hotdrop.

That way cloaky camping is still effective but an attentive player can respond to it when it's not afk instead of just not playing.


And you just made it so the defenders can cyno in help but the attacker cannot. That's not a level playing field.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#9498 - 2017-05-08 17:50:48 UTC
since i posted.....

You know what I am hearing here?
I am hearing......

Waaah Waaah I can not travel for solo killing in nullsec.
WaaaahaaaWaaahh I can not get my blops team to drop on someone.

You know what, Wah Wah Wah.....STFU and HTFU.
Jesus christ, nullsec is supposed to be a group effort, organization superior arena of play.

Quit all your bitching trying to defend the AFK cloaky crap and grow a pair and just go blast whoever in the face by making a plan, grouping up, and crossing the border en mass. Because right now all you people is saying is that you want only to be nullsec to get a bling kill or something as if KM and KB even mean something. That tells me by your attitude that you are lazy, lonely, stupid, and might as well join CODE. with your main and live in highsec because that is all you are worth.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#9499 - 2017-05-08 18:09:28 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
since i posted.....

You know what I am hearing here?
I am hearing......

Waaah Waaah I can not travel for solo killing in nullsec.
WaaaahaaaWaaahh I can not get my blops team to drop on someone.

You know what, Wah Wah Wah.....STFU and HTFU.
Jesus christ, nullsec is supposed to be a group effort, organization superior arena of play.

Quit all your bitching trying to defend the AFK cloaky crap and grow a pair and just go blast whoever in the face by making a plan, grouping up, and crossing the border en mass. Because right now all you people is saying is that you want only to be nullsec to get a bling kill or something as if KM and KB even mean something. That tells me by your attitude that you are lazy, lonely, stupid, and might as well join CODE. with your main and live in highsec because that is all you are worth.

Stay in highsec

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#9500 - 2017-05-08 18:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Max Deveron wrote:
since i posted.....

You know what I am hearing here?
I am hearing......

Waaah Waaah I can not travel for solo killing in nullsec.
WaaaahaaaWaaahh I can not get my blops team to drop on someone.

You know what, Wah Wah Wah.....STFU and HTFU.
Jesus christ, nullsec is supposed to be a group effort, organization superior arena of play.

Quit all your bitching trying to defend the AFK cloaky crap and grow a pair and just go blast whoever in the face by making a plan, grouping up, and crossing the border en mass. Because right now all you people is saying is that you want only to be nullsec to get a bling kill or something as if KM and KB even mean something. That tells me by your attitude that you are lazy, lonely, stupid, and might as well join CODE. with your main and live in highsec because that is all you are worth.


You see it as I do, spot on, and I can say it as a a reply to Linus Gorp as a guy currently in null sec killing PL campers....

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp