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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9241 - 2017-04-20 09:46:43 UTC
Xcom wrote:
@Merin Ryskin Thank you for your utterly useless post. Cloaked and camping in w-space have benefits when you are aware that the system is active. Its taken into consideration and ignored for lack of relevancy to the subject at hand.


Lolwut? If you are AFK you are not at your computer or interacting with the system in any way. If you log out while you're away the result is exactly the same. The reason people AFK cloak outside of wormholes is to avoid the sudden appearance in local when they log in, if there is no local to give away your presence then you might as well just log off and wait until you come back to your computer to log in again.

Now, there are certainly benefits to staying cloaked for an extended period of time as an active player, staying ATK and watching the situation while you wait for the right moment to act, but that is not AFK cloaking.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#9242 - 2017-04-20 10:20:41 UTC
The only reason someone would be cloaked and AFK in wormhole-space is to avoid being detected in directional scanner if you want to keep the element of surprise. AFK-cloaking itself has no use since there is no local.

Wormholer for life.
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#9243 - 2017-04-20 10:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Xcom
Wander Prian wrote:
The only reason someone would be cloaked and AFK in wormhole-space is to avoid being detected in directional scanner if you want to keep the element of surprise. AFK-cloaking itself has no use since there is no local.

This is also the exalt same reason people use cloacks in w-space. D-sanner is the tool used in w-space.

If local is the counter to cloaking the its simply easy to see that without it cloaking should be probable. Cant have the cake and eat it too.

It is worth noting that your most likely going to surprise most people. Its only unlike situations that some corp continually scans for new signatures. Its only when you have made your presence known that people most likely will respond. By then the cloak have served its use.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#9244 - 2017-04-20 11:01:42 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
The only reason someone would be cloaked and AFK in wormhole-space is to avoid being detected in directional scanner if you want to keep the element of surprise. AFK-cloaking itself has no use since there is no local.

This is also the exalt same reason people use cloacks in w-space. D-sanner is the tool used in w-space.

If local is the counter to cloacking the its simply easy to se that without it cloacking should be probable. Cant have the cake and eat it too.


Yet somehow in the 6 years I've lived in W-space, nobody has complained about cloaks. I've seen people set up traps to lure cloakers into, shut them out of their system when they are away, etc...

Cloaks for some weird reason are a issue in nullsec, where you have even more tools to gather intel on the guy and get help to you if you are dropped.

Wormholer for life.
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#9245 - 2017-04-20 11:07:36 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
The only reason someone would be cloaked and AFK in wormhole-space is to avoid being detected in directional scanner if you want to keep the element of surprise. AFK-cloaking itself has no use since there is no local.

This is also the exalt same reason people use cloacks in w-space. D-sanner is the tool used in w-space.

If local is the counter to cloacking the its simply easy to se that without it cloacking should be probable. Cant have the cake and eat it too.


Yet somehow in the 6 years I've lived in W-space, nobody has complained about cloaks. I've seen people set up traps to lure cloakers into, shut them out of their system when they are away, etc...

Cloaks for some weird reason are a issue in nullsec, where you have even more tools to gather intel on the guy and get help to you if you are dropped.

If that is the case then it wont be to much trubble adding this change.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#9246 - 2017-04-20 11:09:36 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
The only reason someone would be cloaked and AFK in wormhole-space is to avoid being detected in directional scanner if you want to keep the element of surprise. AFK-cloaking itself has no use since there is no local.

This is also the exalt same reason people use cloacks in w-space. D-sanner is the tool used in w-space.

If local is the counter to cloacking the its simply easy to se that without it cloacking should be probable. Cant have the cake and eat it too.


Yet somehow in the 6 years I've lived in W-space, nobody has complained about cloaks. I've seen people set up traps to lure cloakers into, shut them out of their system when they are away, etc...

Cloaks for some weird reason are a issue in nullsec, where you have even more tools to gather intel on the guy and get help to you if you are dropped.

If that is the case then it wont be to much trubble adding this change.


If wormholers can deal with a cloak with the current tools without complaining, why cannot nullsec do the same with having more tools available for them? Why is a change needed if you already are able to deal with a cloaker?

Wormholer for life.
Nalena Linova
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9247 - 2017-04-20 11:52:10 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:

If wormholers can deal with a cloak with the current tools without complaining, why cannot nullsec do the same with having more tools available for them? Why is a change needed if you already are able to deal with a cloaker?


Wormholers don't have to deal with 20 supers coming through a cyno on the cloaker.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9248 - 2017-04-20 13:04:33 UTC
Nalena Linova wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:

If wormholers can deal with a cloak with the current tools without complaining, why cannot nullsec do the same with having more tools available for them? Why is a change needed if you already are able to deal with a cloaker?


Wormholers don't have to deal with 20 supers coming through a cyno on the cloaker.


If you can't deal with 20 supers then don't make yourself worth dumping 20 supers on.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#9249 - 2017-04-20 13:08:36 UTC
Nalena Linova wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:

If wormholers can deal with a cloak with the current tools without complaining, why cannot nullsec do the same with having more tools available for them? Why is a change needed if you already are able to deal with a cloaker?


Wormholers don't have to deal with 20 supers coming through a cyno on the cloaker.


Then your issue is with the cyno, not with the cloak. I'm willing to discuss limiting the ability to light a cyno right after decloaking, but that has nothing to do with changing cloaking-mechanics.

Wormholer for life.
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#9250 - 2017-04-20 15:44:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Xcom
Wander Prian wrote:
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
The only reason someone would be cloaked and AFK in wormhole-space is to avoid being detected in directional scanner if you want to keep the element of surprise. AFK-cloaking itself has no use since there is no local.

This is also the exalt same reason people use cloacks in w-space. D-sanner is the tool used in w-space.

If local is the counter to cloacking the its simply easy to se that without it cloacking should be probable. Cant have the cake and eat it too.


Yet somehow in the 6 years I've lived in W-space, nobody has complained about cloaks. I've seen people set up traps to lure cloakers into, shut them out of their system when they are away, etc...

Cloaks for some weird reason are a issue in nullsec, where you have even more tools to gather intel on the guy and get help to you if you are dropped.

If that is the case then it wont be to much trubble adding this change.


If wormholers can deal with a cloak with the current tools without complaining, why cannot nullsec do the same with having more tools available for them? Why is a change needed if you already are able to deal with a cloaker?

In what way would cloaked ships in w-space be nerfed to such an extent to ruin the use of them? You never specified how cloaking would actually be nerfed out of its intended mechanic.

I asked for change and also gave a clear reason behind it. Without any valid counter argument you imply that its bad doing any changes. Is it because you have a solid reasoning behind it, or that you simply want to disagree just to disagree.
Marika Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#9251 - 2017-04-20 15:49:13 UTC
Xcom wrote:

[snip]

I asked for change and also gave a clear reason behind it. Without any valid counter argument you imply that its bad doing any changes. Is it because you have a solid reasoning behind it, or that you simply want to disagree just to disagree.


You flat-out stated that the devs have likely been bribed to ignore the topic of afk cloaking. Excuse me for doubting your, ahem, clear reasoning

On unrelated note, the validation algorithm on these forums is top-notch - indeed all words enclosed in angle brackets are valid HTML tags...
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#9252 - 2017-04-20 15:52:34 UTC
Marika Sunji wrote:
You flat-out stated that the devs have likely been bribed to ignore the topic of afk cloaking. Excuse me for doubting your, ahem, clear reasoning

Ya cause that wasn't sarcastic at all.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9253 - 2017-04-20 16:25:50 UTC
Xcom wrote:
I prefer smaller corps rather then larger ones. And sadly its the smaller corps who don't have a lot of nolife experience in the game with deep connections that directly get hurt by cheese mechanics like this. There are instances were smaller corps like the ones I have been in have suffered to the point of not logging in at all when losses would outway the risks. If active promoted pvp was an option and action could be taken then it would have been the natural result of anti cloak camping. But there is non and the game itself forces a stalemate of turning people to the last option, turn the game off and go do something else.

Local might be linked to cloaking in k-space but not in w-space. If it was an intel tool then its lacking in wormhole space and yet perma cloaking still ruins wormhole life as well. Fixes to cloaking in that regard can be added to w-space on its own and if it works out then it could emigrate to k-space.

I don't think it would ruin the aspect of cloaking if combat probing would make it possible to probe down cloaked ships in w-space. The only difference should be that you would get a larger random distance deviation on the target. It would be harder to pin there exact fixed location and you would have to rescan and attempt to warp to zero multiple times before you would get lucky. Without local you would still need a cov-ops ship to combat probe so it would be a dedicated role and not an instant counter to cloaking.

TL.DR. Make cloaked ships combat probable in w-space with a higher scan result distance deviation then non-cloaked ships.


If you make a choice in this game you must accept the consequences. Running to CCP because you don't like the consequences is just nonsense.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#9254 - 2017-04-20 16:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Xcom
Exactly 20 posts sense I posted a supposed alteration towards cloaking. It was somewhat descriptive to the reasoning and gave clear instruction on the changes and a supposed outcome of said changes. Sense then following have been posted and not one have even given any constructive feedback or a counter suggestion.

Marika Sunji - Have directly attacked my character by claiming the sarcastic post I posted earlier was a conspiracy theory. Even if the particular post I posted was logical and simple to follow and had nothing to do with my character.

Wander Prian - Have claimed he have not seen anyone complain about cloak camping in 6 years of living in w-space therefore any changes are plain mute. Then said that cloaking is dealt with easily by everyone in w-space (no idea where he got this from, maybe a hidden survey he did in his spare time). Claimed w-space dwellers deal with cloaks so null space should just man up and do the same. Not even responded to the idea or even given a reasoning behind any of his claims.

Merin Ryskin - Have responded by stating that cloaks in w-space can AFK or log out therefore somehow the proposed idea is mute. Not even sure how change to cloaking is linked to the idea of logging out or why it was worth mentioning or given a solid reason to how the two subjects are linked.

Teckos Pech - Have mentioned something in the line of consequences. Not sure what it means or what it has to do with cloaking alterations.

The rest have just been fluff responding to random responses. Not one have been about the suggestion of how to change cloaks in w-space that I posted earlier. Just shows that this thread is full of trolls. Sadly this subject have turned into a slugfest and not even worth getting into any more or even worth trying to fix. Probably that time again to take a step back and wonder why this thread haven't been closed.

To the GMs if you are reading this.
It might be high time to just close this thread. What has happens here is a reflection of the last 100 or more pages looks like. This threads either needs clear monitoring and rules or it will keep spiralling further down the drain. Please take it into consideration.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9255 - 2017-04-20 16:32:21 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


While CCP lets this one sit they will stay a niche game with a small player base....


What an idiotic thing to write. Yeah, EVE is a niche game simply because of AFK cloaking.

Typical stupid Dracvaldiepooh.


Being referred to as an idiot by you is a compliment, as per normal you leave out the meat on that point for a jaunty little dig, how progressive of you loser...

And by the way your suggestion about a group of VNI does not really work against people like PL, they just bring enough to kill them all, all well and good to say that without actually trying it, but that is typical of you.


And here we have it, typical BS from Dracvlad.

Yes, you pretty much wrote that EVE player base is small because of AFK camping.

I never wrote a VNI is a magic bullet. I noted it would be a good ship to use against a stratios. Yes, any strategy can be countered, this is a good thing though.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9256 - 2017-04-20 16:37:04 UTC
Xcom wrote:
@Merin Ryskin Thank you for your utterly useless post. Cloaked and camping in w-space have benefits when you are aware that the system is active. Its taken into consideration and ignored for lack of relevancy to the subject at hand.


Not AFK camping though. What are you going to learn? Nothing....you aren't there to observe it.

You do know AFK = Away From Keyboard...right? Just checking.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9257 - 2017-04-20 16:46:05 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
And by the way your suggestion about a group of VNI does not really work against people like PL, they just bring enough to kill them all, all well and good to say that without actually trying it, but that is typical of you.


Ok, so now we're no longer talking about a single AFK cloaker shutting down your PvE indefinitely, we're talking about a significant fleet attacking with overwhelming numbers such that your attempt at defense has no hope of success. And yes, of course a major attack should be able to kill a modest PvE group.


Don't be silly girl! Dracvlad has spoken.

This is a typical response. You give them a strategy to deal with an AFK cloakers and the response then becomes:

Don't be stupid, that will never work. They'll bring in a dozen BLOPs and wipe out your 5 man ratting gang!

Notice the subtle shift from AFK cloaking to ATK cloaking. An AFK cloaker cannot light a cyno, thus no BLOPs could enter system. Further, they always assume that there is sufficient overwhelming force. These people are liars.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#9258 - 2017-04-20 16:47:56 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Exactly 20 posts sense I posted a supposed alteration towards cloaking. It was somewhat descriptive to the reasoning and gave clear instruction on the changes and a supposed outcome of said changes. Sense then following have been posted and not one have even given any constructive feedback or a counter suggestion.

Marika Sunji - Have directly attacked my character by claiming the sarcastic post I posted earlier was a conspiracy theory. Even if the particular post I posted was logical and simple to follow and had nothing to do with my character.

Wander Prian - Have claimed he have not seen anyone complain about cloak camping in 6 years of living in w-space therefore any changes are plain mute. Then said that cloaking is dealt with easily by everyone in w-space (no idea where he got this from, maybe a hidden survey he did in his spare time). Claimed w-space dwellers deal with cloaks so null space should just man up and do the same. Not even responded to the idea or even given a reasoning behind any of his claims.

Merin Ryskin - Have responded by stating that cloaks in w-space can AFK or log out therefore somehow the proposed idea is mute. Not even sure how change to cloaking is linked to the idea of logging out or why it was worth mentioning or given a solid reason to how the two subjects are linked.

Teckos Pech - Have mentioned something in the line of consequences. Not sure what it means or what it has to do with cloaking alterations.

The rest have just been fluff responding to random responses. Not one have been about the suggestion of how to change cloaks in w-space that I posted earlier. Just shows that this thread is full of trolls. Sadly this subject have turned into a slugfest and not even worth getting into any more or even worth trying to fix. Probably that time again to take a step back and wonder why this thread haven't been closed.


My proof I exactly the same as yours. My experience in living in W-space as well as taking with other wormholers. I've never seen anyone complain about cloaks in W-space. I've been in big and small corporations and yet I've never encountered anyone who has a issue with cloaks.

People are usually working together to bait the cloaky into a trap or try to roll him out of the system. The best answer to a cloaky ship is teamwork. One cloaky ship is quite squishy, so not giving them solo targets help quite a bit.

And your suggestion: it would be terrible easy to camp entrances with a good prober and a bubble, leading to nearly impossible movement. Not to mention extremely easy to use as a early warning when you are running sites, leading to very low chances of actually catching anything as a cloaky ship.

Wormholer for life.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9259 - 2017-04-20 17:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Xcom wrote:
Exactly 20 posts sense I posted a supposed alteration towards cloaking. It was somewhat descriptive to the reasoning and gave clear instruction on the changes and a supposed outcome of said changes. Sense then following have been posted and not one have even given any constructive feedback or a counter suggestion.

Marika Sunji - Have directly attacked my character by claiming the sarcastic post I posted earlier was a conspiracy theory. Even if the particular post I posted was logical and simple to follow and had nothing to do with my character.

Wander Prian - Have claimed he have not seen anyone complain about cloak camping in 6 years of living in w-space therefore any changes are plain mute. Then said that cloaking is dealt with easily by everyone in w-space (no idea where he got this from, maybe a hidden survey he did in his spare time). Claimed w-space dwellers deal with cloaks so null space should just man up and do the same. Not even responded to the idea or even given a reasoning behind any of his claims.

Merin Ryskin - Have responded by stating that cloaks in w-space can AFK or log out therefore somehow the proposed idea is mute. Not even sure how change to cloaking is linked to the idea of logging out or why it was worth mentioning or given a solid reason to how the two subjects are linked.

Teckos Pech - Have mentioned something in the line of consequences. Not sure what it means or what it has to do with cloaking alterations.

The rest have just been fluff responding to random responses. Not one have been about the suggestion of how to change cloaks in w-space that I posted earlier. Just shows that this thread is full of trolls. Sadly this subject have turned into a slugfest and not even worth getting into any more or even worth trying to fix. Probably that time again to take a step back and wonder why this thread haven't been closed.

To the GMs if you are reading this.
It might be high time to just close this thread. What has happens here is a reflection of the last 100 or more pages looks like. This threads either needs clear monitoring and rules or it will keep spiralling further down the drain. Please take it into consideration.


The point is this: your actions in game have consequences. You must accept those consequences. If you pick a small corp there are things you are not going to be able to do if you had joined a larger corp. So if you have a small corp and are in NS and that means you can't do X because you are in a small corp...accept it. Running to CCP and saying "Fix it." Is not reasonable.

As for your suggestion why should ratting, mining, etc. get a buff? That is what your suggestion would do. Further, why should ATK cloaking be nerfed?

Edit: Perhaps you do not see the problem for ATK cloakers:

Suppose we set up a large number of T2 large bubbles on a gate. You come in, in your cloaky ship. You are in the bubbles so you cannot warp and cloak. Now you must align and cloak and try to burn out of the bubbles....with only the benefit of a single cycle of your prop mod. Now the scanner has plenty of time to start scanning and let people know approximately where you are so things like inties can start zipping around to decloak you. Add in some cans as well, and now ATK cloaking just got alot harder.

This is a bad fix of AFK cloaking (setting aside the disagreement as to whether it is even a "problem" at all). You are nerfing those that are not part of the "problem".

Here is general principle:

If you there is an issue with X, and X is deemed to need a nerf....do not nerf X in such a way as to nerf Y as well which is not part of the problem.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#9260 - 2017-04-20 17:50:02 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
And by the way your suggestion about a group of VNI does not really work against people like PL, they just bring enough to kill them all, all well and good to say that without actually trying it, but that is typical of you.


Ok, so now we're no longer talking about a single AFK cloaker shutting down your PvE indefinitely, we're talking about a significant fleet attacking with overwhelming numbers such that your attempt at defense has no hope of success. And yes, of course a major attack should be able to kill a modest PvE group.


It never was about the single AFK cloaker, it is always about what can be instantly dropped on your head.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp