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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8501 - 2017-01-27 12:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:

I would also have an AFK flag from an OA that will detailed a character as AFK if they do not do anything to their client for one hour. If they do anything with their client it will remove the AFK flag.


Which will mean people know its safe to rat and can do so safely, destroying the only counter we have to local. This has been pointed out every time he has tried to push this idea.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#8502 - 2017-01-27 12:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Dracvlad wrote:
Is this a PvP game where you actually fight or a PvP game with two AFK characters staring at each other, with your definition I guess the latter.

You keep assuming that the two are mutually exclusive.

They are not.

You also keep assuming that the only form of PvP is ships shooting at each other.

It is not.

Your definition of PvP is far too narrow. Within your definition an AFK flag makes perfect sense, so I give you full marks for consistency. And I do hear where you're coming from because once, long ago, I saw the game as you do. But if you ever realize that PvP in EvE is far more than ships shooting each other, maybe you'll come around to my way of seeing things.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#8503 - 2017-01-27 12:41:08 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Is this a PvP game where you actually fight or a PvP game with two AFK characters staring at each other, with your definition I guess the latter.

You keep assuming that the two are mutually exclusive.

They are not.

You also keep assuming that the only form of PvP is ships shooting at each other.

It is not.

Your definition of PvP is far too narrow. Within your definition an AFK flag makes perfect sense, so I give you full marks for consistency. And I do hear where you're coming from because once, long ago, I saw the game as you do. But if you ever realize that PvP in EvE is far more than ships shooting each other, maybe you'll come around to my way of seeing things.


How can you fight them and their hot droppers when the person is AFK, yes they are mutually exclusive, at the keyboard we can fight AFK and cloaked we cannot fight they are mutually exclusive.

The issue simply is the AFK part which is why it is narrow, as I keep saying the objective is to know when you can bait them into an attack to kill them, they chose to impose AFK play not me.

I refuse to accept that AFK play should be as powerful as this, if you want to do area denial then get in space and actively deny them that space, and with respect trying to suggest that I have no strategic understanding is way off the mark, this game deserves to be better than people arranging fleet fights for gudfites. This is about game mechanics which is why the AFK flag is the best solution because it does not destroy cloaks and enables people to game it and others to know when to bait and slay the camper. Area denial should not come as cheap as this period, it is bad game design period...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lugh Crow-Slave
#8504 - 2017-01-27 12:43:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

I would also have an AFK flag from an OA that will detailed a character as AFK if they do not do anything to their client for one hour. If they do anything with their client it will remove the AFK flag.


Which will mean people know its safe to rat and can do so safely, destroying the only counter we have to local. This has been pointed out every time he has tried to push this idea.




i say it's fine so long as the flag takes 120s to go away >:D

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#8505 - 2017-01-27 12:54:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

I would also have an AFK flag from an OA that will detailed a character as AFK if they do not do anything to their client for one hour. If they do anything with their client it will remove the AFK flag.


Which will mean people know its safe to rat and can do so safely, destroying the only counter we have to local. This has been pointed out every time he has tried to push this idea.


i say it's fine so long as the flag takes 120s to go away >:D


That would give people a reason to continue to cloaky camp rather than do roams and stuff, but as the objective for me is the counter drop play rather than safe play I could live with it. I would however not go at 120 seconds because that brick tank has to be balanced perhaps by time and warp speed. But good post in terms of a balance idea on this suggestion.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#8506 - 2017-01-27 13:21:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Dracvlad wrote:
I refuse to accept that AFK play should be as powerful as this...

That's your choice. It doesn't make you right.

Dracvlad wrote:
...if you want to do area denial then get in space and actively deny them that space...

If you want to prevent area denial, then get in space and actively prevent area denial. If a single cloaked hostile in local can shut down activity in a system, it's time to seriously question how much ownership you really exert over the system.

Dracvlad wrote:
...and with respect trying to suggest that I have no strategic understanding is way off the mark, this game deserves to be better than people arranging fleet fights for gudfites.

I wasn't trying to imply any lack of understanding on your part and I apologize if I came across that way. I was merely trying to point out that I once shared your perspective and that I do understand where you're coming from, even if I disagree with you.

Dracvlad wrote:
Area denial should not come as cheap as this period, it is bad game design period...

Owning space has always been hard and always required a lot of activity. This is by design. If owning space was meant to be easy then you'd be totally right about area denial.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Van Doe
#8507 - 2017-01-27 13:30:23 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


I refuse to accept that AFK play should be as powerful as this


Tell me how is afk cloaky powerful play?
You can't gain information or isk in any way afk cloaked.

See it like sitting in a station but with slightly increased risk someone might decloak you by chance

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.
Beeflee Filee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8508 - 2017-01-27 13:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Beeflee Filee
baltec1 wrote:


They are random, require a probe launcher and you get spotted the instant you pop out of one. Doesn't change the fact that if I go roaming in a megathron the drone regions will have upwards of 30 minutes warning I'm on the way.


I know WH way is not perfect but nothing should be but cloaking still is.

baltec1 wrote:

WH players manage.


There is no cynoing into WH so it is not the same problem. And I have heard from many people living in wormholes they manage because they just cut off the possibility of many people getting in there by closing the worm holes. They have options in null we do not.

baltec1 wrote:

You dock when I enter system or enter a POS. Cloaking give me a little less safety than that so it evens the playground and allows me to operate in enemy space for extended periods of time.


Yet you are fine with docking in stations and the use of local intell channels gifting people 100% safety.

[/quote]

Extended can you say unlimited amount of time. and that is the problem as I suggested if you read my whole post, I would be happy if you just had a limited amount of time you could stay safe in a system by using cloak. I am even willing to give you half or a whole day, as long as you cannot stay there for ever without any danger to you.

Intell does not give 100% safety, how do you explain all the kills on the kill board if it did. It gives a very high degree of safety I will give you that but again you are in enemy space why should you have the benefits? In enemy territory you are one among many and if you wanted right now you could make it the oppesit almost you could have 200 cloaked ships for a year in a system and we could do nothing about it even though it should be out territory. It is not in anyway an even playing field like that. cause you could stay just out side station and then nobody could do anything. Besides you will never win against us by just camping our system, and a lot of those who do not wish to debuff cloaking in some way, and uses it like that are people who are angry or irritated on people in null because there is a larger profit to be had. But what they should get into their head is that if you actually want to push us out of null you need to fight for it not use a flawless mechanic which is only an annoyance for other players. I know it is probably an alt staying there so it is actually bad use of a mechanic which is flawed.

Before answering my post please read my others before you answer cause I am getting a bit irritated of having to write the same thing again and again. Not all of what you have written here is new I have already answered more than once some of the points you make.

Van Doe wrote:


Tell me how is afk cloaky powerful play?
You can't gain information or isk in any way afk cloaked.

See it like sitting in a station but with slightly increased risk someone might decloak you by chance


Because you still manage to disrupt the income of players in the system.
Van Doe
#8509 - 2017-01-27 13:46:56 UTC
If you stay afk cloaked in system for 1 day you might also log off.

You would also have the same issue if a corp 200 in size would bring one after a noter in over days and sit a a station.
Or log off in a safe spot.
After wanting. X amount of days they all undock/log in.
Congratulation you managed to do the same without cloaks.

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.
Beeflee Filee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8510 - 2017-01-27 13:59:52 UTC
Van Doe wrote:
If you stay afk cloaked in system for 1 day you might also log off.

You would also have the same issue if a corp 200 in size would bring one after a noter in over days and sit a a station.
Or log off in a safe spot.
After wanting. X amount of days they all undock/log in.
Congratulation you managed to do the same without cloaks.


But as long as he is logged of I do not care about him as soon as he logs on I can take the propper response.

I do not believe that a red can dock in our system :)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#8511 - 2017-01-27 14:02:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I refuse to accept that AFK play should be as powerful as this...

That's your choice. It doesn't make you right.

Dracvlad wrote:
...if you want to do area denial then get in space and actively deny them that space...

If you want to prevent area denial, then get in space and actively prevent area denial. If a single cloaked hostile in local can shut down activity in a system, it's time to seriously question how much ownership you really exert over the system.

Dracvlad wrote:
...and with respect trying to suggest that I have no strategic understanding is way off the mark, this game deserves to be better than people arranging fleet fights for gudfites.

I wasn't trying to imply any lack of understanding on your part and I apologize if I came across that way. I was merely trying to point out that I once shared your perspective and that I do understand where you're coming from, even if I disagree with you.

Dracvlad wrote:
Area denial should not come as cheap as this period, it is bad game design period...

Owning space has always been hard and always required a lot of activity. This is by design. If owning space was meant to be easy then you'd be totally right about area denial.


It is not about owning space, it is all about the speed and execution of hot drops by entities that don't want your space but want green killboards and get a kick out of perfect execution kills with almost no risk. Evidently if I cannot remove that single cloaky camper who can unleash a mass of ships on anyone then the control is not there, that is because there is no counter, but they should not be able to have the same impact AFK as being ATK, it is poor game design.

Area denial should require active play, not inactive play.

I have suggested two ways to make it more fun for the defender, the AFK flag and the probe that gets the grid of the cloaker. I am not asking for fuel or rubbish like that or some de-cloak mechanism. I like the cloak as it is, I am looking for counters that PvP players can use, not the total safety that others seem to throw at people who want a counter for AFK cloaky camping.

The issue for me is the AFK part, though the probe to get the grid is a good one that at least creates some counter play for hunters even on ATK players.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Van Doe
#8512 - 2017-01-27 14:04:02 UTC
Be honest all you want to know if the other guy in system is capable ore willing to kill you.
I recommend you to use your social skills to interact with other gamers.
And figure out this way what people are up to.
The insecurity is a big part of eve's fun.

The thing with the most value in eve is trust and you want ccp gifting it to yoy

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#8513 - 2017-01-27 14:06:47 UTC
Van Doe wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


I refuse to accept that AFK play should be as powerful as this


Tell me how is afk cloaky powerful play?
You can't gain information or isk in any way afk cloaked.

See it like sitting in a station but with slightly increased risk someone might decloak you by chance


You need to read this thread a bit more Do you know what a cyno is, do you know anything about BLOP's carriers, dreads Titan bridges etc. If you answer taht you do know what they are then you are a troll.

And by the way in sov space stations and Citadels they control access.

Also they don't need to get in system and log off like they do in WH space, they just cyno in, I getthe impression you don't know the mechanics of cyno's...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#8514 - 2017-01-27 14:12:25 UTC
Van Doe wrote:
Be honest all you want to know if the other guy in system is capable ore willing to kill you.
I recommend you to use your social skills to interact with other gamers.
And figure out this way what people are up to.
The insecurity is a big part of eve's fun.

The thing with the most value in eve is trust and you want ccp gifting it to yoy


LOL, with skill injectors it is now very easy for someone to create a character with the required skills to hot drop too that is not on any kills, perhaps you might want to think it through a bit about how effective your social skills will be.

Some people give them something to drop to get that intel, so being a sacrificial lamb is social skills lol...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Van Doe
#8515 - 2017-01-27 14:28:14 UTC
Nerver heard of a afk person open up a cyno
And what prevents someone after being afk to open one?
What prevents you to log in and open one?

You could also just hit a radom key every x amount of time or let a macro do it for you to prevent you getting flagged afk.
You could also get afk to let others feel save.

After all the amount of not knowing stays the same

You want free kills or be sure no one is hostile to you.
And avoid actually playing the game how its meant to.
Be aware of your surroundings there is no 100% safety ever.

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#8516 - 2017-01-27 14:38:29 UTC
Van Doe wrote:
Nerver heard of a afk person open up a cyno
And what prevents someone after being afk to open one?
What prevents you to log in and open one?

You could also just hit a radom key every x amount of time or let a macro do it for you to prevent you getting flagged afk.
You could also get afk to let others feel save.

After all the amount of not knowing stays the same

You want free kills or be sure no one is hostile to you.
And avoid actually playing the game how its meant to.
Be aware of your surroundings there is no 100% safety ever.


Anyone saying that an AFK person cannot open a cyno and think it means something in terms of this discussion is a troll and you are added to my blocked list bye bye troll.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Van Doe
#8517 - 2017-01-27 14:43:36 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Van Doe wrote:
Nerver heard of a afk person open up a cyno
And what prevents someone after being afk to open one?
What prevents you to log in and open one?

You could also just hit a radom key every x amount of time or let a macro do it for you to prevent you getting flagged afk.
You could also get afk to let others feel save.

After all the amount of not knowing stays the same

You want free kills or be sure no one is hostile to you.
And avoid actually playing the game how its meant to.
Be aware of your surroundings there is no 100% safety ever.


Anyone saying that an AFK person cannot open a cyno and think it means something in terms of this discussion is a troll and you are added to my blocked list bye bye troll.


Have fun moving to highsec. I heard rumors that you can't put up a cyno there.
And be very Lucky to come across a capital.

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#8518 - 2017-01-27 14:43:41 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
It is not about owning space, it is all about the speed and execution of hot drops by entities that don't want your space but want green killboards and get a kick out of perfect execution kills with almost no risk. Evidently if I cannot remove that single cloaky camper who can unleash a mass of ships on anyone then the control is not there, that is because there is no counter, but they should not be able to have the same impact AFK as being ATK, it is poor game design.

Area denial should require active play, not inactive play.

Yeah, about that whole "no risk" and "no counter' thing...may I introduce you to the counter-drop. Yes, this is an extreme example, but to say that there is "no counter" to the Schrodinger's hotdropper conundrum is simply disingenuous.

Also, I would like to point out that figuring out which area to deny and getting cloaked assets there without them getting popped at a gate camp (you are protecting the borders of your space, right?) certainly requires activity, especially if the folks doing the area denial are smart and use a wormhole to get into your space instead of gates.

Lastly, regarding the AFK vs not-AFK issue, I'd like to point out that if all friendlies in system move one system over to continue their activity and the cloaky hostile doesn't follow them, that's a really good indicator that they're actually AFK. Just a thought.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#8519 - 2017-01-27 14:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
It is not about owning space, it is all about the speed and execution of hot drops by entities that don't want your space but want green killboards and get a kick out of perfect execution kills with almost no risk. Evidently if I cannot remove that single cloaky camper who can unleash a mass of ships on anyone then the control is not there, that is because there is no counter, but they should not be able to have the same impact AFK as being ATK, it is poor game design.

Area denial should require active play, not inactive play.

Yeah, about that whole "no risk" and "no counter' thing...may I introduce you to the counter-drop. Yes, this is an extreme example, but to say that there is "no counter" to the Schrodinger's hotdropper conundrum is simply disingenuous.

Also, I would like to point out that figuring out which area to deny and getting cloaked assets there without them getting popped at a gate camp (you are protecting the borders of your space, right?) certainly requires activity, especially if the folks doing the area denial are smart and use a wormhole to get into your space instead of gates.

Lastly, regarding the AFK vs not-AFK issue, I'd like to point out that if all friendlies in system move one system over to continue their activity and the cloaky hostile doesn't follow them, that's a really good indicator that they're actually AFK. Just a thought.


I have organised counter drops but the hours are long and there is no certainty that the person is even at his keyboard, and at a sniff of risk they don't bother. I said there is currently no counter to an AFK cloaky camper, that is an ultimate truth which you seem to ignore. I have killed quite a few ATK cloaky campers in my time, but I never managed to execute a counter drop because they never dropped when we were setup for it, possibly because they were AFK, damned if I know... I have however managed to kill one AFK cloaky camper which was very funny.

As you are aware BLOP's have a good range on them, carriers and titans and titan bridges are easier to scout out, I have certainly done that. The question is are those active people active all the time that the camper is logged on, nope. It sounds to me that you have been in a large alliance more than anything else, which meant that you had perhaps region control, this is a different metric as compared to messy small groups being farmed by big alliances, different strategic drivers.

As for moving around, blanket cloaky camping does happen, of course you move, the other method is to go belt ratting in Thrashers in a fleet and just have a laugh, I have seen campers move on after weeks of doing this.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Van Doe
#8520 - 2017-01-27 15:05:23 UTC
There is no counter?
Ever heard about dirty gates?
How about drop some cans to ensure a safety zone?

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.