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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8441 - 2017-01-25 07:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dracvlad wrote:
twchris13579 Aivoras wrote:
A rant of pathetic proportions....

...have I missed something?


Yes ShockedRoll


Nevermind...confused twchriss with Beeflee.... Oops

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8442 - 2017-01-25 07:12:51 UTC
Double post...dammit.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8443 - 2017-01-25 07:14:22 UTC
Beeflee Filee wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

You can play however you want. That is the nature of EVE. But that means that if some other player(s) want to play that entails interacting with you…you cannot stop that. So sure, go play however you want, but if I decide I want to come along and shoot you. I can, and you can’t stop me. That is the nature of EVE.

As for fair/unfair fights, the point is that such a concept just does not exist in the game. The developer was not telling anyone how to play the game, but was describing the nature of the game. The nature of the game is a sandbox—i.e. a game that is based on the concepts of emergence and spontaneous order. I would be willing to bet that many of the ways the game is played was not even anticipated by the developers. So all your stuff using set theory is just irrelevant.

Now, if you don’t like this you have two options. Learn to like it or quit.

BTW, for examples of game play that probably was not anticipated, go look at the youtube videos of Rooks & Kings.


I am just saying there is no reason to promot fights hvis is 10 to 1 or 100 to 1, which is what cyno does. Maybe the ship capable of having such a module should also be expensive as it is really powerful. This is the real problem and not only the cloak its to cheap to use a feature so powerful.


Cynos also lead to escalations where you have 100s vs. 100s.

So no, just stop shiptoasting.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8444 - 2017-01-25 07:25:18 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Beeflee Filee wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

You can play however you want. That is the nature of EVE. But that means that if some other player(s) want to play that entails interacting with you…you cannot stop that. So sure, go play however you want, but if I decide I want to come along and shoot you. I can, and you can’t stop me. That is the nature of EVE.

As for fair/unfair fights, the point is that such a concept just does not exist in the game. The developer was not telling anyone how to play the game, but was describing the nature of the game. The nature of the game is a sandbox—i.e. a game that is based on the concepts of emergence and spontaneous order. I would be willing to bet that many of the ways the game is played was not even anticipated by the developers. So all your stuff using set theory is just irrelevant.

Now, if you don’t like this you have two options. Learn to like it or quit.

BTW, for examples of game play that probably was not anticipated, go look at the youtube videos of Rooks & Kings.


I am just saying there is no reason to promot fights hvis is 10 to 1 or 100 to 1, which is what cyno does. Maybe the ship capable of having such a module should also be expensive as it is really powerful. This is the real problem and not only the cloak its to cheap to use a feature so powerful.


are you sure it's a cyno problem instead of your enemy having more friends?

even if they HT you, if you are competent enough, you can kill 1 or 2 of them, then it's your win already.

you counter drop them once or twice, see if they'll come back again, blops aren't cheap you know.

not to mention you can do the same to them, but you can't, or rather you won't, cause setting yourself up at advantage is 'effort'.

the QQer before you, as per his post, has 40 men, i'll say that again, 40 men, docked up because of a cloaky camper.

could you imagine that?! we could take a system with dudes half of that, ok ,maybe 2/3s.

how many blops do you think you can kill with that much of manpower in a cheap gank ship?



The problem is Beeflee is is loss averse. Such players see losses as far worse than an equivalent gain. These are the kinds of players, IMO, that are going to want to remove things that can cause such losses. Things like cynos, and cloaks.

A risk averse player on the other hand merely seeks to avoid risk to the extent it is cost effective to do so. If you rat in a standing fleet, on comms, maybe with a PvP ship or cyno fit...you are risk averse. You have mitigated your risk.

Beeflee also does not seem to grasp the concept of "the sandbox". Yes you can go into the sandbox and play however you want, but it is a sandbox with others in it too and they might decide they'll knock down your sand castle or cave in their tunnels, or throw you in the hole you just dug. Or they might help you build a castle, dig some tunnels, etc.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8445 - 2017-01-25 11:15:51 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


First of all I think that the more ISK that players have the more likely they are to fight, AFK cloaky camping gets in the way of that, no one comes out to fight so we will prevent them from earning the ISK to be able to come out and fight, makes sense in a typical Eve way which is to stop your enemy from having fun.


You would be wrong here. People with hundreds of billions in liquid and the same in assets are just as likely to dock up as the scrub with just a t1 barge to their name. Huge areas of null are given over to renters who do not pvp as that would encourage more pvp in their system which they do not want as it cuts deeply into their isk making.

Dracvlad wrote:

As I have pointed out here a number of times the richer a player is to be able to get into the doctrine ships and then small gang stuff the more likely they are to go for it, but anyway, the boring AFK cloaky camp play is what Eve is all about, because people can't get into interceptors and catch stuff.


That would be because intel via local makes that impossible to do, AFK cloaking is the only way to catch the bulk of people out there.
Beeflee Filee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8446 - 2017-01-25 11:31:59 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


The problem is Beeflee is is loss averse. Such players see losses as far worse than an equivalent gain. These are the kinds of players, IMO, that are going to want to remove things that can cause such losses. Things like cynos, and cloaks.

A risk averse player on the other hand merely seeks to avoid risk to the extent it is cost effective to do so. If you rat in a standing fleet, on comms, maybe with a PvP ship or cyno fit...you are risk averse. You have mitigated your risk.

Beeflee also does not seem to grasp the concept of "the sandbox". Yes you can go into the sandbox and play however you want, but it is a sandbox with others in it too and they might decide they'll knock down your sand castle or cave in their tunnels, or throw you in the hole you just dug. Or they might help you build a castle, dig some tunnels, etc.


Absolutely wrong I know I can loos stuff, and I know the game and I fully accept the possibility of me loosing a ship. Just to point out I have yet to loose a ship to a cyno gank, as it is right now I have only lost a ship to pvp figths where I have been in a larger fleet.

But non the less I still se the problem with a feature which is so powerful and for which no counter currently exist. Now you will say that we could counter cyno the dropper, well that would take all out time as we do not know when this dropper is going to do a drop. And in effect we would still be plauged by a single ship who potentially could drop more on us than we can know. It is also okay that we not know every thing and there for is not ready to handle what ever they throw at us.

I would actually not to hit at any one but back to the point about fair and unfair fights. In local a lot of people after a fight write GF= good fight, if good fight exist then bad fight does and that is exactly what a cyno does a lot of time. I have now seen a lot of the videos from rooks and kings. I have no problem of how we see them using it in game, cause they simply out smart fleets with smart bombs and put an effort in to using the games mechanics to win over larger fleets. I would actually be very happy if I died to the way they used cyno. But to use cyno for 10or 20 vs 1 ganks seems lame and it almost never is a good fight for the one person.

I have no plan of stop playing the game but that does not mean that one cannot give ones views about some ingame mechanic which may be to easy to use and come with a to big advantage compared to any other game mechanic currently ingame.

if you should use a capital or a very expensive ship for cyno so there where the potential for big loss of the once using it continuously, I would not have any arguments to throw at you. But the fact is in this case risk is not equal to reward, which seems to be a big thing for ccp, and some thing which others mention so often that risk = reward then why is it not so with the cyno. This is why it upsets me, you can get great fights almost without risk yes you can loose maybe 2-3 bombers for the potential to take down a 3 bill carrier or what ever. this is exactly why it seems to be to powerful. Before you start to qoute that I should not fly any thing which I cannot afford or is willing to loose. That is not the problem here it is how ever that the risk of doing it is not as high as the potential reward.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#8447 - 2017-01-25 11:41:25 UTC
how can HTs know exactly what your capabilites are?

you are too scared of the 'boogeyman' forgeting that you can be monsters too.

it's all in the mind, if you could just grow a pair, you won't whine like this really.

10 or 20 vs 1 is a very good fight for me with this tears alone. :)

Just Add Water
Beeflee Filee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8448 - 2017-01-25 12:01:25 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
how can HTs know exactly what your capabilites are?

you are too scared of the 'boogeyman' forgeting that you can be monsters too.

it's all in the mind, if you could just grow a pair, you won't whine like this really.

10 or 20 vs 1 is a very good fight for me with this tears alone. :)


Easly afk cloaker in every system which we cant do any thing about and at the same time we will not know which of the many systems will be cynoed.

All the benefits seems to be to the attacks, that is not how the world usually works. People saying that we cannot debuff vloak because of it being a necessity to counter local is a little wrong, I would actually say that even if reds are in system they should not have all the intell. as you very well know in the real world even if spies is in a country they dont even know a fraction of every thing. And I might add that you also have a little right, that intell in local i to strong. Which is why I would not remove intell but rather go about it in a way which says that it is not 100% precise cause detect people who comes through a wormhole seems stupid that we get that for free. but I think through gates is okay as we could say that gates registers who goes through them.

This is a whole other view you could say that gates should be controlled by who ever owns a system as some one has to maintain em. Which would suggest that a password should be used to travel from system to system, this way the reds could not use it and could only cyno or wormhole in to a system. But again I do not like that Idea cause it limits to much how fights could happen. But that would probably be how it would work in real life that enemies could not use what is in your territory as you are the once to maintain it.

You could say that you get this for free as well.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#8449 - 2017-01-25 12:39:56 UTC
how can an AFK cloaker do all those 'horrible' things you accuse him of if his AFK, as i Away From Keyboard?!

dude you're too old to be scared of the boogeyman, grow some, would you?

Just Add Water
Beeflee Filee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8450 - 2017-01-25 13:16:09 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
how can an AFK cloaker do all those 'horrible' things you accuse him of if his AFK, as i Away From Keyboard?!

dude you're too old to be scared of the boogeyman, grow some, would you?


I do not want to respond to this. Cause only reason you say this is because of a developer saying something stupid at some point.

Cause the counter question would be how do you know that he is AFK?

And don't use the topic name as an excuse cause that is just playing stupid we are currently not allowed to start up a new forum thread about this topic it will be closed. And since a lot of the things is part of the problem don't go hide behind the topic name cause that just gives me reason to believe that are not very clever as you obviously have no good arguments and only use that which a developer has written, he is not a god like figure and just because he has said something with out any form of thought to it does not make it so.

Because the question still remains is he AFK? When the developer can anwser me this with out saying that if he has not killed you he is afk then i give him that one. But I should not have to risk my ship to know if some one is afk he should as in almost every other mmo be logged of if he is afk.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#8451 - 2017-01-25 13:18:29 UTC
the simple answer to that is, you don't bother if he's afk or not. if he's afk, you're safe, if he's not, then let him cyno in expensive blop ships. kill 1 or 2 and see if they come back.

Just Add Water
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#8452 - 2017-01-25 14:57:59 UTC
Beeflee Filee wrote:
Easly afk cloaker in every system which we cant do any thing about and at the same time we will not know which of the many systems will be cynoed.

All the benefits seems to be to the attacks, that is not how the world usually works. People saying that we cannot debuff vloak because of it being a necessity to counter local is a little wrong, I would actually say that even if reds are in system they should not have all the intell. as you very well know in the real world even if spies is in a country they dont even know a fraction of every thing. And I might add that you also have a little right, that intell in local i to strong. Which is why I would not remove intell but rather go about it in a way which says that it is not 100% precise cause detect people who comes through a wormhole seems stupid that we get that for free. but I think through gates is okay as we could say that gates registers who goes through them.

This is a whole other view you could say that gates should be controlled by who ever owns a system as some one has to maintain em. Which would suggest that a password should be used to travel from system to system, this way the reds could not use it and could only cyno or wormhole in to a system. But again I do not like that Idea cause it limits to much how fights could happen. But that would probably be how it would work in real life that enemies could not use what is in your territory as you are the once to maintain it.

You could say that you get this for free as well.


How does the cloaked player have the advantage? You're ratting/mining in a series of systems with hundreds of players in standing fleets ready to respond at a moment's notice. The cloaked player on the other hand is alone, deep in hostile space and attempting to bring multi-billion ISK ships into that hostile space. The defenders have every advantage, assuming they are in standing fleets and on comms ready to respond. As anyone should who wants to own space.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#8453 - 2017-01-25 15:16:33 UTC
These people who have to cloak AFK to get kills have been given interceptors that can warp at speed and are immune to bubbles and yet they still want to sit there all lazy with an AFK cloaky alt because they can win by de-cloaking and dropping a ton of stuff on people and they can win because people will not operate because of that threat of being dropped on by a ton of people. They can have the affect while at work and while sleeping, how to get your monies worth in Eve, by the classic use of area denial. boring their enemy to destruction.

And they will moan that this is the only way because of local, when they were given such ships to get on people and when even the best local based intel has big gaps in it because you rely on people reporting stuff, because you are outside the main TZ of the alliance and so on.

The joys of sitting there in a counter drop fleet for hours and hours waiting for someone to get to his desk and then he does not drop because there is a little bit more risk.

And they tell you that you can can counter drop them at a time of his choosing while he is asleep or at work or playing WOT.

The joy of AFK cloaky camping which destroys small entities looking for good fights and fun in 0.0.

It is not fun at all...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Beeflee Filee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8454 - 2017-01-25 16:42:30 UTC
The problem is should you be able to have an effect on the gameplay of others if you are afk?
Cause that is what AFK cloaking is even though you are not playing the game you are actively disrupting others from playing.

I have never seen a soldier firing a shot against the enemy while drinking te at his gramps.
I have never seen a soldier which is not present.
I have never seen anyone being afraid of the soldier not being present.

I have never seen that which is invisible.
I have heard that which I could not see.
I have tasted that which I could not see
I have felt that which I could not see.

What you cannot see you also always have an ide that something is there so removing local is not the solution but a bigger problem unless something better is made. It still does not help the underlying issue is Where is that cloaker and is he or is he not AFK.

Keep in mind as said you have all kinds of tools to get into systems with interceptors and cloaks is a good way to keep being in a system with out any danger to the cloaker. Every perople agree on one thing that is the more profit the more risk thats a basic concept in the game. I must say that I love that concept.

Where is the danger to the cloaker?? and still he has the potential for ptofit. If not for killing anyone then the intell and disruption he is doing. Tell me of the danger to the cloaker cause I have yet to hear of a cloaker which has been present in a system for a long time die with out disengaging his own cloak.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#8455 - 2017-01-25 16:51:44 UTC
Beeflee Filee wrote:
The problem is should you be able to have an effect on the gameplay of others if you are afk?
Cause that is what AFK cloaking is even though you are not playing the game you are actively disrupting others from playing.

I have never seen a soldier firing a shot against the enemy while drinking te at his gramps.
I have never seen a soldier which is not present.
I have never seen anyone being afraid of the soldier not being present.

I have never seen that which is invisible.
I have heard that which I could not see.
I have tasted that which I could not see
I have felt that which I could not see.

What you cannot see you also always have an ide that something is there so removing local is not the solution but a bigger problem unless something better is made. It still does not help the underlying issue is Where is that cloaker and is he or is he not AFK.

Keep in mind as said you have all kinds of tools to get into systems with interceptors and cloaks is a good way to keep being in a system with out any danger to the cloaker. Every perople agree on one thing that is the more profit the more risk thats a basic concept in the game. I must say that I love that concept.

Where is the danger to the cloaker?? and still he has the potential for ptofit. If not for killing anyone then the intell and disruption he is doing. Tell me of the danger to the cloaker cause I have yet to hear of a cloaker which has been present in a system for a long time die with out disengaging his own cloak.


Link me a killmail of someone who was killed by someone AFK and cloaked.
Beeflee Filee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8456 - 2017-01-25 17:11:42 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:


Link me a killmail of someone who was killed by someone AFK and cloaked.



I cannot since thats not the problem it is how ever we do not know if he is afk and he still has an effect in the game. And as soon as he is not afk he might come to kill me and I was fine if he was alone, but when the potential is that he has a cyno the story is different.

And I might say again and it is daunting but you just cant get your head around it apparently. If we knew he was afk np but we don't. And there for he is a threat as an AFK who should have no effect on the game. try reading the whole thing and not just what you want to comment on. Taking things out of context will always give you a way to say something which has nothing behind it.

Link me a kill mail of one who was afk for several days in a system suddently comming online and lightning a cyno in you face when coming out of cloak. You could probably find a million but how was I to tell that he was not AFK any longer before 20 people is on me? Tell me that and I might stop writing here, but wait you cannot because it is currently not possible to know if a peron is AFK or not.

I know that the one thing that will stop me from writing here is answering the same question a 100 times and you still don't get that there is infact a problem.

I just hope you get that there is a problem before 200 pages more. And please come with a new argument that you wont be killed because he is cloaked. But you know as soon as he is NOLONGER AFK he can DECLOAK on top of you and light the CYNO.

I have a game see if you can find more keywords which makes it a problem.
Havenard
Havenard Corporation
#8457 - 2017-01-25 17:29:48 UTC
Well, this topic is too long for me to follow, and maybe this idea has been given before, but I'll shoot it anyway.

I think what we need is a electronic warfare ship with a special Directional Scanner capable of telling if there are ships cloaked there. It doesn't even have to tell what specific hull it is, it just have to let us be aware, maybe tell what hull size or whatnot just to add a little spice.

Alternatively, create a Survey Scanner Probe that you launch in space with a Survey Probe Launcher, and after 5 minutes tells you all ships within the solar system, and if they are cloaked or not. The way I see it, this is not only an interesting approach to cloaky campers but also give a new purpose to the Survey Probe Launcher, that is currently only useful to probe moons.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#8458 - 2017-01-25 17:32:27 UTC
Beeflee Filee wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:


Link me a killmail of someone who was killed by someone AFK and cloaked.



I cannot since thats not the problem it is how ever we do not know if he is afk and he still has an effect in the game. And as soon as he is not afk he might come to kill me and I was fine if he was alone, but when the potential is that he has a cyno the story is different.

And I might say again and it is daunting but you just cant get your head around it apparently. If we knew he was afk np but we don't. And there for he is a threat as an AFK who should have no effect on the game. try reading the whole thing and not just what you want to comment on. Taking things out of context will always give you a way to say something which has nothing behind it.

Link me a kill mail of one who was afk for several days in a system suddently comming online and lightning a cyno in you face when coming out of cloak. You could probably find a million but how was I to tell that he was not AFK any longer before 20 people is on me? Tell me that and I might stop writing here, but wait you cannot because it is currently not possible to know if a peron is AFK or not.

I know that the one thing that will stop me from writing here is answering the same question a 100 times and you still don't get that there is infact a problem.

I just hope you get that there is a problem before 200 pages more. And please come with a new argument that you wont be killed because he is cloaked. But you know as soon as he is NOLONGER AFK he can DECLOAK on top of you and light the CYNO.

I have a game see if you can find more keywords which makes it a problem.



So your problem is that your 100% accurate, always up to date Intel is only 99% accurate and the chance you MIGHT lose your ship is too much, so it has to go, so you can have your 100% accurate Intel back?

Wormholer for life.
Beeflee Filee
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8459 - 2017-01-25 17:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Beeflee Filee
Wander Prian wrote:

So your problem is that your 100% accurate, always up to date Intel is only 99% accurate and the chance you MIGHT lose your ship is too much, so it has to go, so you can have your 100% accurate Intel back?


I would say that my intell is far from 100%. And I do not wish for 100% correct intell but if you had read my other inputs in here you would see that I am fine with it I even said I was willing to give up local if I just had the possibility to decloak a ship and find it.

But What I dont care for is that I have no chance of knowing if he is close to me or just in the system being AFK. Here could I find him and kill him fine and that I would give up local for. But him holding all the cards I do not like which is what he does when just sitting cloaked like that.

He has the initiative and I have no way of taking that from him even in our own territory. Which only says that no matter what apparently the game tries to stack the favorable conditions to the attacker and not to the defender in that regard. we might have intell in our local but they can cyno in from a place where we do not even know that they are. It is okay that we do not know with out an effort where they are, but they know about every thing about us just putting a cloaked ship in our system and add a benefit of the possibility of a drop.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#8460 - 2017-01-25 18:20:17 UTC
Beeflee Filee wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


The problem is Beeflee is is loss averse. Such players see losses as far worse than an equivalent gain. These are the kinds of players, IMO, that are going to want to remove things that can cause such losses. Things like cynos, and cloaks.

A risk averse player on the other hand merely seeks to avoid risk to the extent it is cost effective to do so. If you rat in a standing fleet, on comms, maybe with a PvP ship or cyno fit...you are risk averse. You have mitigated your risk.

Beeflee also does not seem to grasp the concept of "the sandbox". Yes you can go into the sandbox and play however you want, but it is a sandbox with others in it too and they might decide they'll knock down your sand castle or cave in their tunnels, or throw you in the hole you just dug. Or they might help you build a castle, dig some tunnels, etc.


Absolutely wrong I know I can loos stuff, and I know the game and I fully accept the possibility of me loosing a ship. Just to point out I have yet to loose a ship to a cyno gank, as it is right now I have only lost a ship to pvp figths where I have been in a larger fleet.

But non the less I still se the problem with a feature which is so powerful and for which no counter currently exist. Now you will say that we could counter cyno the dropper, well that would take all out time as we do not know when this dropper is going to do a drop. And in effect we would still be plauged by a single ship who potentially could drop more on us than we can know. It is also okay that we not know every thing and there for is not ready to handle what ever they throw at us.

I would actually not to hit at any one but back to the point about fair and unfair fights. In local a lot of people after a fight write GF= good fight, if good fight exist then bad fight does and that is exactly what a cyno does a lot of time. I have now seen a lot of the videos from rooks and kings. I have no problem of how we see them using it in game, cause they simply out smart fleets with smart bombs and put an effort in to using the games mechanics to win over larger fleets. I would actually be very happy if I died to the way they used cyno. But to use cyno for 10or 20 vs 1 ganks seems lame and it almost never is a good fight for the one person.

I have no plan of stop playing the game but that does not mean that one cannot give ones views about some ingame mechanic which may be to easy to use and come with a to big advantage compared to any other game mechanic currently ingame.

if you should use a capital or a very expensive ship for cyno so there where the potential for big loss of the once using it continuously, I would not have any arguments to throw at you. But the fact is in this case risk is not equal to reward, which seems to be a big thing for ccp, and some thing which others mention so often that risk = reward then why is it not so with the cyno. This is why it upsets me, you can get great fights almost without risk yes you can loose maybe 2-3 bombers for the potential to take down a 3 bill carrier or what ever. this is exactly why it seems to be to powerful. Before you start to qoute that I should not fly any thing which I cannot afford or is willing to loose. That is not the problem here it is how ever that the risk of doing it is not as high as the potential reward.


No counter? Local is the counter. It tells you they are there and after a bit of work that they are almost surely cloaked. You can then take the appropriate measures in response.

Not everything requires a hard counter.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online