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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7721 - 2016-11-28 00:03:07 UTC
Xcom wrote:
@ Sonya Corvinus you can kill people in citadels. Just takes a bit of effort.


Are you honestly saying specific people can be killed in citadels? and did you notice I said stations, not citadels?

Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
If only there was. I am complaining about safety, not the lack thereof. Since, you know, the party line is that only PvE'ers dislike cloaks. From a PvP'ers point of view, cloaks pretty much guarantee no fun will be had.


Local pretty much guarantees no fun for PvPers given PvEers in sov null can escape literally 100% of the time. Yet you still want to make PvEing even safer. What's your solution to this?

Let's get rid of local in null and all problems go away.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7722 - 2016-11-28 00:07:32 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Maybe if you could articulate a cogent reason as to why you think cloaking is broken....?

Your claim of a counter is just not really very good in that:

1. Cloaking ships die all the time.
2. Even AFK cloaking can be countered by players who care to do so.

That people complain is not sufficient. People complain many things in game repeatedly, that does not make them broken. People often complained about invention and the number of successes they observed.

I'm glad you asked. Now that we are on point its much easier to articulate the issue.

The main problem of cloaked ships isn't the whole issue of the module and its use after the cloak have dropped. The problem is during the use of the cloak. There is no limitation to it. You can use the module for an indefinite amount of time in a limbo between logged off and on grid. Its almost like going into observatory view and have the power to stay there for any amount of time. You are close to invincible other then pilot errors which are to easy to avoid. That state of cloak shouldn't have some form of limitation to it. Its crazy thinking that cloaked ships during cloak shouldn't have any limit to there ability's. They have benefits such as observation without any drawback, that is the main issue. Observation without drawback and the chance to engage in combat or avoid it at no cost.

Its clear that any state should have a form of drawback other then, "you can't do much in cloaked state". The power to observe and engage or avoid is a huge advantage when combined with the aspects of unlimited time that you can stay in cloak. There needs to be a limit to cloaking, preferably something that does give the surrounding players around the cloaked ships the power to influence said pilot. Removing the power to influence cloaked ships creates an unbalanced advantage that fuels this thread. It gives anyone on the opposite side of that cloak a feeling of helplessness that in the end creates a bad gaming experience. Its game design 101.


As you note cloaks are self limiting. The only thing they are good for is, as you note, covert operations such as gathering intel. However, that is NOT without risks. Every time going through a gate is a risk. Every time one initiates warp there is a risk. Want to stop that cloaky guy from snooping-n-pooping set up a gate campe, use bubbles, use cans, use fast locking ships.

As for influencing another player...dude that is a two way street. I have ratted with an AFK cloaker in system. I did this because I gathered intel on him. I knew he was Euro TZ so it was relatively safe to rat in my TZ. In other words, that AFK cloaker will have as much influence on you as you let him.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7723 - 2016-11-28 00:09:26 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:

Wait, how do you make ISK when you are cloaked? Last I checked, you aren't able to activate any modules when cloaked

Cloaky Proteus (or Stratios) combo to run sites and slip past any gatecamp. When combat scanned, cloak till they leave- then resume.
Cloaky Exploration Cheetah (or Astero).
Cloaky blockade runner to haul your PI.

I get what you're saying but you may need to approach it with more subtlety: cloaks are effectively helping the ISK making process.

There's also the indirect approach where cloaky interceptors are posted as eyes to ward a system against marauding gangs, keeping the miners safe.


You cannot make ISK while cloaked. It is that simple. Note that Brokk is seriously mistaken. You make no ISK in his scenarios while cloaked, you only make ISK while uncloaked.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7724 - 2016-11-28 00:11:45 UTC
Xcom wrote:


Wait, how do you make ISK when you are cloaked? Last I checked, you aren't able to activate any modules when cloaked

You know comments like that makes you look like an idiot more then anything.[/quote]

No, please explain how a cloaked ship makes ISK.

Can you shoot rats while cloaked? No.
Can you extract your PI output from your planet while cloaked? No.

Exactly how does one make ISK while cloaked?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7725 - 2016-11-28 00:27:44 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:


That's not entirely true. PvE'ers have traditionally argued from an empire builder perspective; using words such as 'sovereign rights' to question why they aren't allowed to purge unwanted visitors from their space.


First off, lets be clear most of these whiners...they don't actually hold space, they more often than not, rent it.

Second, using a change to mechanics or literally a button to purge unwanted visitors is complete and errant Bravo Sierra of the most rank nature.

In short these guys want all the advantage. Even suggesting a change like the OA gets their old ladies panties in a knot. Especially if it means removing local. I have been reading and participating in these threads for at least 4 years, and the general consensus is, "We secured the space we should be able to use it....without facing any risk." They want cloaking fuel to make AFK cloaking simply go away. They want a decloaking pulse to make cloaking go away. They want T2 probes to make AFK cloaking go away. They want all of these things so they can make AFK cloaking go away and not have to actually...you know...defend "their" (bahahahahaha) sovereign space.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7726 - 2016-11-28 00:28:43 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Xcom wrote:
@ Sonya Corvinus you can kill people in citadels. Just takes a bit of effort.


Are you honestly saying specific people can be killed in citadels? and did you notice I said stations, not citadels?

Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
If only there was. I am complaining about safety, not the lack thereof. Since, you know, the party line is that only PvE'ers dislike cloaks. From a PvP'ers point of view, cloaks pretty much guarantee no fun will be had.


Local pretty much guarantees no fun for PvPers given PvEers in sov null can escape literally 100% of the time. Yet you still want to make PvEing even safer. What's your solution to this?

Let's get rid of local in null and all problems go away.


Right. AFK cloaking is a symptom of local...not the other way around.

But full points for a nice Orwellian post. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7727 - 2016-11-28 00:30:45 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Xcom wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
My "complaining" is just the truth. Using local as your main source of intel made you vulnerable for AFK-cloaking. It was invented to counter your use of local as your primary way of gathering intel.

I know your slow but you don't seam to get it. Not everyone here complaining about cloaks are from nullsec or even care about AFK-cloaking/hot-droping aspect of cloaks in nullsec. Cloaking in general needs nerfed because they are ruining the gameplay for more then the 200 or so players that are directly impacted by the niche problem you seem to source your entire argument around.


Show me one who doesn't live in null and is complaining about cloaks?


Now, now...I think it should be phrased:

Show me someone who is complaining about cloaks and does not live in (sov) NS? Big smile

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#7728 - 2016-11-28 01:41:00 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Xcom wrote:
@ Sonya Corvinus you can kill people in citadels. Just takes a bit of effort.


Are you honestly saying specific people can be killed in citadels? and did you notice I said stations, not citadels?

If you find that imbalanced then start a thread and reason why people in station can't be killed. Don't come to a cloaky thread and complain about it. I could be sitting here and reason that cloaked ships are connected to any number of random reasons just to drag the conversation to the gutter.

This isn't connect the dots. Cloaking is connected to the game yes but it is with clear evidence close to invulnerability. At least with citadels you as a player can force people to undock. Stations may or may not be changed to move in the same directions as citadels, but that's for time to tell and nothing to do with cloaked ships.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7729 - 2016-11-28 01:54:48 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Xcom wrote:
@ Sonya Corvinus you can kill people in citadels. Just takes a bit of effort.


Are you honestly saying specific people can be killed in citadels? and did you notice I said stations, not citadels?

If you find that imbalanced then start a thread and reason why people in station can't be killed. Don't come to a cloaky thread and complain about it. I could be sitting here and reason that cloaked ships are connected to any number of random reasons just to drag the conversation to the gutter.

This isn't connect the dots. Cloaking is connected to the game yes but it is with clear evidence close to invulnerability. At least with citadels you as a player can force people to undock. Stations may or may not be changed to move in the same directions as citadels, but that's for time to tell and nothing to do with cloaked ships.


Also while you are cloaked, you cannot activate modules,you cannot target anything, your ship is pre-nerfed for the ability to use the covert ops -cloak and it takes one slot from the ship. The only special ability that the cloak gives you is to choose the moment of engagement.

Wormholer for life.
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#7730 - 2016-11-28 02:02:35 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
No, please explain how a cloaked ship makes ISK.

Can you shoot rats while cloaked? No.
Can you extract your PI output from your planet while cloaked? No.

Exactly how does one make ISK while cloaked?

You really want to go there?

This is a game, cloaks needs to be balanced to give a good gaming experience. It doesn't matter that your making isk or not, its about the feature called cloaks that causes bad gaming experience in EvE online.

At this point that comment coming from you really is a troll comment. This is Features and Ideas parts of the forum, don't confuse it with EvE politics.
Xcom
Eclipse Strike Unit
Jump On Contact..
#7731 - 2016-11-28 02:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Xcom
Wander Prian wrote:
Xcom wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Xcom wrote:
@ Sonya Corvinus you can kill people in citadels. Just takes a bit of effort.


Are you honestly saying specific people can be killed in citadels? and did you notice I said stations, not citadels?

If you find that imbalanced then start a thread and reason why people in station can't be killed. Don't come to a cloaky thread and complain about it. I could be sitting here and reason that cloaked ships are connected to any number of random reasons just to drag the conversation to the gutter.

This isn't connect the dots. Cloaking is connected to the game yes but it is with clear evidence close to invulnerability. At least with citadels you as a player can force people to undock. Stations may or may not be changed to move in the same directions as citadels, but that's for time to tell and nothing to do with cloaked ships.


Also while you are cloaked, you cannot activate modules,you cannot target anything, your ship is pre-nerfed for the ability to use the covert ops -cloak and it takes one slot from the ship. The only special ability that the cloak gives you is to choose the moment of engagement.

Yes but the intel gathering, prolonged stalemate of locking a player in system without being able to affect the outcome other then waiting the stailmait out and the ability to activate some modules that do not need ship lock tips it in a lopsided favour. If your ship would turn into a flying brick without the intel gathering cloaks would be perfectly balanced, but that's not the case.

These 3 points amongst other are the reason why cloaking is not balanced.
1. Intel gathering without any drawback.
2. Ability to engage with limited drawbacks (easily circumnavigated), because of point 1 tipping the hand heavily in the cloaked ships favour.
3. Reduced quality of gameplay when cloaks force the engagement to a stalemate where only one side of the party having the ability to break it.

Clearly as a gameplay perspective its evidenced to show imbalance when you look at the points above. Obviously if you start looking at it from an ingame perspective where cloaks have a role to play in the grand scheme of things then you can easily start to justify it from any number of standpoints. But isolated the module itself and the cloaking ability in EvE is not balanced, evidently from all the complaints.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7732 - 2016-11-28 02:28:58 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:

Local pretty much guarantees no fun for PvPers given PvEers in sov null can escape literally 100% of the time. Yet you still want to make PvEing even safer. What's your solution to this?

Let's get rid of local in null and all problems go away.

I already posted several solutions to this and agreed to several others; but I'll recap:

- cloaks: too safe; the sonar scanner posted several hundreds of pages ago sounds like a lot of fun so I'd roll with that one.
- local intel: too safe; I'd go with delayed local to give potential hunters the time to locate someone (or at least load grid).
- mining ... not safe enough; these guys need scan-down signatures in addition to anoms.
- observatory arrays with the ability to mask ships as blues (subvert intel) or remove them from local: go for it! Deploying one's own observatory array in a system 1-2 jumps out should allow this.
- cloaky nullified T3s: beyond too safe: should not exist. Either nullified or cloaky-- not both simultaneously.
- hotdrops: too safe; it would help to get a 40 second timer after decloak to allow combat before a drop happens.

The end result, would make scouting an active role; risking either losing the scout while you were alt-tabbed, or risking no scout at all and checking DScan. It would return danger to those who don't put in effort, and preserve the safety of those who do keep eyes on DScan / gates and take the time to scan their holes.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7733 - 2016-11-28 02:38:21 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

In short these guys want all the advantage. Even suggesting a change like the OA gets their old ladies panties in a knot. Especially if it means removing local. I have been reading and participating in these threads for at least 4 years, and the general consensus is, "We secured the space we should be able to use it....without facing any risk." They want cloaking fuel to make AFK cloaking simply go away. They want a decloaking pulse to make cloaking go away. They want T2 probes to make AFK cloaking go away. They want all of these things so they can make AFK cloaking go away and not have to actually...you know...defend "their" (bahahahahaha) sovereign space.

Some do indeed display an ennerving degree of entitlement (quite often renters, true that).

But I do want AFK cloakers to go away; because you either make a move or you don't. You can't just postpone it for weeks on end and still call dibs on initiative- that doesn't sound right to me.

It is rather balanced, but this kind of mexican standoffs just isn't good for the game. It's supposed to be entertaining! (implying EvE is fun .... yarr, I know ;-) -- still, I do believe there has to be another way.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#7734 - 2016-11-28 06:58:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
....when a AFK cloaky camper goes any where near me....


Never ever happened.



I have seen people get upset over AFK cloaky camping in NPC 0.0, I have seen people in your own alliance get upset over the camping of XZH-4X when EVOKE tried to make a come back and then die to them continuously while I just went to a less valuable system and was not bothered at all.

Well I have blown up a number of AFK cloaky campers, though only one of them was AFK and cloaked, and that was because I worked out his hiding place and was on grid cloaked when he logged on before heading to work and the silly plonker did not even bother to move in a random direction. I have killed one who was using his Mobile Depots to taunt us in local so I kept RF'ing them then let him pick them up and put them down again. He got into a pattern and then I had an interceptor waiting for him and boooooom. Another tried to kill my Raven three times but it was Omi tanked and I was kiting teh rats, oh dear, I then took the pee out of him so he decided to leave, but I was waiting for him at the gate iwith a bubble and things to decloak him in the spot aligned to his normal safe spot and boooooom.

All fun and games mate.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
John Amton
Kriegsmarinewerft
Goonswarm Federation
#7735 - 2016-11-28 11:45:31 UTC
Oh deer.

Me thinks the biggest issue originates from a Cyno/Cloak fit. Make it either/or so people can still cyno but have to atctualy do it fast since a cloaky cyno is actually a threat noone can predict and currently noone can counter.

Or do it like this: Implement a activateable jammer that, when activated, instantly deactivates the cloak of every ship with a cyno on in the current system and blocks it for a certain amount of time, however this uses some sort of fuel.

I mean, there are people who argue that this removes the surprise-buttsekcs aspect of a cyno, but imo this should be limited to hit&run tactics since a surprise is something you didn't see coming, however with a perma cloaker you never know what's going to happen.

In addition (to stop a Gaben), you can always hinder people to make ISK by simply either drop into their systems with some mass or invade it with your own alliance.

I for my part got shot down by a non-cloaky dropper corp and I think that's actually quite fair play since I had time to react but didn't, so my shiny ship went poof.

TL;DR: AFK players don't kill people, that's right. AFK cynos however kill the fairness.
Lillith Sakata
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7736 - 2016-11-28 17:18:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lillith Sakata
Sonya Corvinus wrote:

Local pretty much guarantees no fun for PvPers given PvEers in sov null can escape literally 100% of the time. Yet you still want to make PvEing even safer. What's your solution to this?

Let's get rid of local in null and all problems go away.


I used to be very much against getting rid of Local. I held on to it like a safety net... or pacifier.

Then I moved to a place that doesn't have local. And it is nice. And I've not been AFKamped since. Without local, I've not had to worry "Oh there is a red guy in local, I better stay docked because he knows I'm here". I rat, mine, huff, run data/relic sites. And I watch my D-Scanner for probes or ship tags I don't know.

When there is Nobody in Local, others don't know I'm here either. Makes me more SA.FE. (yeah pun intended)

He's safer too -- at least unless I'm looking for content... then he has to watch his D-Scanner, because if he isn't, I'll make sure to capitalize on it.


Seriously though, Local is a disease, and AFKamping is the symptom. Now that I've lived without local, watched ships fly on by in d-scan and kept trucking along, instead of sitting in a station all damned day because there was a *chance* that some idiot wasn't fully AFK....

I despise high, low, and null. Local is trash, please toss it where trash belongs.

On the flipside for sov-holders... (and WH "holders"), it could be nice to have some kind of deployable, that you can stick near a gate, or WH, and it pings the owner/alliance when there is a new contact. Would be kinda like a traffic sensor/camera. Broadcasts the make/model/tag of the ship, and that is it. You don't know who the owner is, just the ID of the ship.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7737 - 2016-11-28 18:21:52 UTC
Xcom wrote:
If you find that imbalanced then start a thread and reason why people in station can't be killed. Don't come to a cloaky thread and complain about it. I could be sitting here and reason that cloaked ships are connected to any number of random reasons just to drag the conversation to the gutter.

This isn't connect the dots. Cloaking is connected to the game yes but it is with clear evidence close to invulnerability. At least with citadels you as a player can force people to undock. Stations may or may not be changed to move in the same directions as citadels, but that's for time to tell and nothing to do with cloaked ships.


Don't sit here and claim you can kill someone in a citadel. The length of the invulnerability timers means anyone can escape. Also, assets in destroyed citadels need to drop in space everywhere. It's insane that your assets are 100% safe in any player made structure.

Xcom wrote:
Yes but the intel gathering, prolonged stalemate of locking a player in system without being able to affect the outcome other then waiting the stailmait out and the ability to activate some modules that do not need ship lock tips it in a lopsided favour. If your ship would turn into a flying brick without the intel gathering cloaks would be perfectly balanced, but that's not the case.

These 3 points amongst other are the reason why cloaking is not balanced.
1. Intel gathering without any drawback.
2. Ability to engage with limited drawbacks (easily circumnavigated), because of point 1 tipping the hand heavily in the cloaked ships favour.
3. Reduced quality of gameplay when cloaks force the engagement to a stalemate where only one side of the party having the ability to break it.

Clearly as a gameplay perspective its evidenced to show imbalance when you look at the points above. Obviously if you start looking at it from an ingame perspective where cloaks have a role to play in the grand scheme of things then you can easily start to justify it from any number of standpoints. But isolated the module itself and the cloaking ability in EvE is not balanced, evidently from all the complaints.


Intel gathering without any drawback is a problem. Cloaks do give you a drawback. You can't attack or earn ISK when cloaked. Local chat is intel without any drawback, so let's nerf that.

Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
I already posted several solutions to this and agreed to several others; but I'll recap:

- cloaks: too safe; the sonar scanner posted several hundreds of pages ago sounds like a lot of fun so I'd roll with that one.
- local intel: too safe; I'd go with delayed local to give potential hunters the time to locate someone (or at least load grid).
- mining ... not safe enough; these guys need scan-down signatures in addition to anoms.
- observatory arrays with the ability to mask ships as blues (subvert intel) or remove them from local: go for it! Deploying one's own observatory array in a system 1-2 jumps out should allow this.
- cloaky nullified T3s: beyond too safe: should not exist. Either nullified or cloaky-- not both simultaneously.
- hotdrops: too safe; it would help to get a 40 second timer after decloak to allow combat before a drop happens.

The end result, would make scouting an active role; risking either losing the scout while you were alt-tabbed, or risking no scout at all and checking DScan. It would return danger to those who don't put in effort, and preserve the safety of those who do keep eyes on DScan / gates and take the time to scan their holes.


Mining isn't safe enough? You will literally never be caught if you watch local. Miners being AFK watching netflix is the issue.

hotdrops: you're risking multi billion ISK ships to kill a retriever. If you mine/rat in groups while in fleet and on comms in PvP fits, hot drops are a non issue. A cloaky nullified T3 doesn't do much damage at all, a proper group PvEing together would destroy that T3.

So the real question it seems is why are people PvE-ing solo in null?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#7738 - 2016-11-28 18:44:22 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
So the real question it seems is why are people PvE-ing solo in null?


So why do people solo in WH space?

Local in sov null will be controlled by an OA which you can shoot to remove it, don't like local shoot it, simple as.


Lillith Sakata

null sec and lowsec are subject to hot drops, instant I win button with instant delivery, in your WH you can take steps to block them with bubbles and collapse WH's, you have scouts to watch in the next door WH, which gives you some warning, and they still have to burn to you. It is not instant, so there is a chance for good players to strip away the tackle and GTFO, not so with a hot drop, unless you are aligned and ready to warp as soon as someone uncloakeds which of course people like me do. But I cannot interdict the hotdrop unless I know where they are sitting ready to jump and bubble them at the right moment giving me time to clear the tackle and get away.

And it is what comes in on you that really hurts and it is instant, so in effect you compare apples to pears, I don't presume to insist on normal space being applied to WH space, WH is different and fun in it's own right, but the majority of WH players go all weak kneeded at being reported in local, stop whining and live with it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7739 - 2016-11-28 18:48:32 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
So the real question it seems is why are people PvE-ing solo in null?


So why do people solo in WH space?

Local in sov null will be controlled by an OA which you can shoot to remove it, don't like local shoot it, simple as.


A non issue given we don't whine and call for nerfs when we die because we're flying solo.

Our standing rule is if you are in WHs and not in the standing fleet and on comms, anyone can neut you out first as a first warning, destroy your ship as a second warning if you do it again, then you are kicked the third time.

Null could learn something.
Lillith Sakata
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7740 - 2016-11-28 18:49:01 UTC

Quote:
Mining isn't safe enough? You will literally never be caught if you watch local. Miners being AFK watching netflix is the issue.


This is true. The only addendum I would stick in is if they get rid of local, made people actually play the game instead of AFK mine all day, then they should perhaps make the cycle times / amount per cycle better. Sometimes I think they should anyways. Less players on means less fights, less ships getting blown up, less ships being made, less ore used, less bought, so the miners are really getting **** all over. So the way it stands, people have to AFK mine to make mining even worth it.

Of course if they stop the AFK mining then miners will in the end be happier either way. Less ore supply means more profit per unit. I still CBA to sit and stare at a rock all flippin day.