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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6421 - 2016-07-24 20:58:39 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
There is work, you still have to be around to see the flag hit and use intelligence to work it out. People can game it and its fine, its not 100% security.


Until you combine it with the local information and intel-channels, and heeey presto 100% security


No you are wrong, it is like any intel it has gaps, for example I often played in alliances when they had few people on during times that I was most active, so I saw massive gaps in intel channels. For example I was in IRC when they held Cobalt Edge and there were many periods when the intel channels were non-existent. You are doing a max max comment, the sort of bull that Jenn a'Snide comes out with.

So if you think that is 100% security I have to wonder about you. It is only as good as the people who are active and willing to participate. Lots of people get killed in 0.0 with local, I think that people who just blame local are kinda meh and need to try harder, this game is not supposed to be easy is it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6422 - 2016-07-24 23:38:42 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Often the process of working out a fix to something creates some other balance issue, your suggestion is of course something that would deal with AFK cloaking, however it does break cloaks which is something I wanted to avoid.

The biggest issue around this is casual play, people get called away, and often their only possibility is to cloak up.


Wrong, they can logoff.

Quote:
Another issue is of course moving Supers and Titans, the issue here is that this makes hunting them so easy it is silly. One could argue that such ships should be only feasible for an alliance that can support them with say a Keepstar, so in one way a good change.


Moving super caps is not, IMO, something that should be done solo. So again, I disagree on this part. And balance is not achieved by looking at special snowflake aspects of the game.

So, it looks like you have nothing on "breaks cloaks" except two special snowflake arguments.

Quote:
I generally would not be affected by this because I tend to use T3C's which are cloaked and nullfied, so I would just burst through the gate camps and find a system to log off, however it really does make a lot of play require that people have a clear time to play without interruptions like a screaming baby, a burst pipe, a wife asking you to make a coffee etc., even going to the toilet is a risk if you sufer from the dreaded Klingon.


If the baby is crying...logoff. If the wife can't make her own coffee call a lawyer or logoff if she really does have your balls in her purse. If a pipe bursts, logoff. Really, why is this so hard?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6423 - 2016-07-24 23:42:30 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
I'm sorry, but what? You keep on assuming things all the time and making your own conclusions about things you read between the lines. Your own idea about a AFK-flag would only work because of, you guessed it, LOCAL. The only reason you are mad about someone sitting in your system is because of LOCAL. (seeing the trend here? no?) Still somehow we cannot talk about local? Oookay... I'm not here to defend an AFK-cloaker. I'm here as a fellow cloak-user stopping people from unncessarely nerfing a good module. Likewise, I'm going to call out a bad idea when I see one and your AFK-flag is one.

Do you know what happens when you assume something? You just make an ass out of yourself.


Assume what, you said it above, you are a WH player who whines about local, you hate the fact that it exists, but going forward you can do something about it as it will be a OS which you can shoot. If it annoys you so much shoot the damn OS, done dusted!

The whole issue we are talking about is AFK, let me spell it out for you

A W A Y F R O M the K E Y B O A R D

Nothing about local.

So many people say oh he is AFK so he is not a danger, I say OK then we flag him as such, and guess what they did not like it.

The issue is AFK play it is simple as that.

I don't want cloaks nerfed at all and this suggestion is the best way as it directly attacks AFK gameplay.


He is not whining about local, but pointing out that AFK can local are linked. AFK cloaking works because of local. Local can only really be "attacked" by AFK cloaking. We went over this for about 50 pages about 100 pages ago. People argued and argued that local has nothing to do with AFK cloaking, but that is down right blatantly stupid.

Flagging is bad because it is free in the sense of zero marginal cost. It also allows considerable free riding. You do understand the concept of marginal cost right?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6424 - 2016-07-24 23:46:06 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Roll

I just think that you are a typical WH player fixated on Local...


Yeah, I snipped most of your comment.

Now, serious question (which of course I do NOT expect you to answer, but I do expect lots of passive aggressive Bravo Sierra).

Given the current mechanics, if a guy is AFK cloaking in a system you want to use....how do you know he is there?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6425 - 2016-07-24 23:57:54 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

1. Of course skill injectors have something to do with this, people can easily create characters with the ship skills needed and with no history. So they have no history and no kills, what then?


Holy crap is that a thin straw.

Quote:
2. So risk averse then which seems to be something that you feel strongly about in null sec players


Care to try rewriting this in a cogent form? Are you trying to insult him for being risk averse or suggesting a strategy to manage risk?

Quote:
3. Time for the blob, how quaint... a blob for every TZ!


Calling in back up is not blobbing. Whatever. Oh and never mind that you were talking about the cloakers blobbing...clear cut example of you wanting your cake and eating it too. Nice display of hypocrisy.

Quote:
The sole issue for me is the AFK side of it, I want to hunt them and baiting is the only thing that works, but I do not want to waste my time baiting someone who is AFK, it is poor game content.


And there we have it. We need an AFK Flag just for Dracvlad. Yep a great way of balancing a game...do it from the perspective of a single player. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6426 - 2016-07-25 00:01:43 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:


Until you combine it with the local information and intel-channels, and heeey presto 100% security


Sorry Wander, but I don't think it will be 100% security. IMO, even with an AFK flag people will still be posting AFK cloaking threads here. They'll use something along the lines of,

"Yeah, the flag says AFK, but I don't know when he'll come back!"

We'll get the same old tired laundry list of ****** ideas we've seen dozens of times, up to and including removing cloaks altogether. How is that for breaking cloaks?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6427 - 2016-07-25 05:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Teckos, you are trying to hard Roll To try to make out that an AFK flag will benefit just me is very fail.

Local and AFK cloaky camping are normally linked by people who want easy kills

Haha, of course I understand marginal cost, you make so much effort to attack the person with snide comments against them like that, when you have not come out with one argument that actually works against my proposal.

My suggestion does not change cloaks and attacks the most annoying part of AFK cloaky camping, the AFK part, plus it has a conflict driver with a OS in space to shoot.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#6428 - 2016-07-25 14:35:35 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos, you are trying to hard Roll To try to make out that an AFK flag will benefit just me is very fail.

Local and AFK cloaky camping are normally linked by people who want easy kills

Haha, of course I understand marginal cost, you make so much effort to attack the person with snide comments against them like that, when you have not come out with one argument that actually works against my proposal.

My suggestion does not change cloaks and attacks the most annoying part of AFK cloaky camping, the AFK part, plus it has a conflict driver with a OS in space to shoot.


You cannot be that thick.

The only reason why we are talking about a thing called AFK-cloaking is BECAUSE of local. It's the only thing that gives it the "power" to scare the living crap out of people who have been taught to use local as a binary safety-system. Because local gives you 100% accurate, always up to date information about who is in the system, it empowers someone sitting in the system to be a nuisance even without doing anything, just by the mere presence of their name in local. If you honestly think that local has nothing to do with this discussion, then you are a fool.

Wormholer for life.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6429 - 2016-07-25 15:51:40 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos, you are trying to hard Roll To try to make out that an AFK flag will benefit just me is very fail.

Local and AFK cloaky camping are normally linked by people who want easy kills

Haha, of course I understand marginal cost, you make so much effort to attack the person with snide comments against them like that, when you have not come out with one argument that actually works against my proposal.

My suggestion does not change cloaks and attacks the most annoying part of AFK cloaky camping, the AFK part, plus it has a conflict driver with a OS in space to shoot.


You cannot be that thick.

The only reason why we are talking about a thing called AFK-cloaking is BECAUSE of local. It's the only thing that gives it the "power" to scare the living crap out of people who have been taught to use local as a binary safety-system. Because local gives you 100% accurate, always up to date information about who is in the system, it empowers someone sitting in the system to be a nuisance even without doing anything, just by the mere presence of their name in local. If you honestly think that local has nothing to do with this discussion, then you are a fool.


My opinion is that people who use that line of argument on local are just after easy kills, it would be so easy to kill stuff with BLOP's and hot drops it would be laughable. If there was to be no local at all we would also need to get rid of all that free intel on the map and Dotlan, plus the ADM system too. Personally if CCP did that then I would be quite happy to say good bye to local, however the knock on effect would be massive because you would need scouts to cover every damn gate, every WH and have people scouting the normal muster points of hot droppers. It would become a massive bind and make the game even more niche. Actually just get rid of cyno's then I will agree.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6430 - 2016-07-25 18:14:20 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos, you are trying to hard Roll To try to make out that an AFK flag will benefit just me is very fail.

Local and AFK cloaky camping are normally linked by people who want easy kills

Haha, of course I understand marginal cost, you make so much effort to attack the person with snide comments against them like that, when you have not come out with one argument that actually works against my proposal.

My suggestion does not change cloaks and attacks the most annoying part of AFK cloaky camping, the AFK part, plus it has a conflict driver with a OS in space to shoot.


IF you understood the concept of marginal cost you'd know that a structure that has only a fixed cost has zero marginal cost. THAT is why I asked. I have been using the marginal cost = 0 point that your intel is free for several pages now, but you keep on ignoring this point and refuse to respond to it. In fact, I suspect you'll do it again in response to this post. You'll spout something that has nothing to do with marginal cost.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6431 - 2016-07-25 18:17:00 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos, you are trying to hard Roll To try to make out that an AFK flag will benefit just me is very fail.

Local and AFK cloaky camping are normally linked by people who want easy kills

Haha, of course I understand marginal cost, you make so much effort to attack the person with snide comments against them like that, when you have not come out with one argument that actually works against my proposal.

My suggestion does not change cloaks and attacks the most annoying part of AFK cloaky camping, the AFK part, plus it has a conflict driver with a OS in space to shoot.


You cannot be that thick.

The only reason why we are talking about a thing called AFK-cloaking is BECAUSE of local. It's the only thing that gives it the "power" to scare the living crap out of people who have been taught to use local as a binary safety-system. Because local gives you 100% accurate, always up to date information about who is in the system, it empowers someone sitting in the system to be a nuisance even without doing anything, just by the mere presence of their name in local. If you honestly think that local has nothing to do with this discussion, then you are a fool.


My opinion is that people who use that line of argument on local are just after easy kills, it would be so easy to kill stuff with BLOP's and hot drops it would be laughable. If there was to be no local at all we would also need to get rid of all that free intel on the map and Dotlan, plus the ADM system too. Personally if CCP did that then I would be quite happy to say good bye to local, however the knock on effect would be massive because you would need scouts to cover every damn gate, every WH and have people scouting the normal muster points of hot droppers. It would become a massive bind and make the game even more niche. Actually just get rid of cyno's then I will agree.


And there you go again....

Wander has not said that local should simply be removed. He is pointing out the link between AFK cloak camping and local. Which you admit...and yet here you are trying to shoe horn him into some straw man position.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6432 - 2016-07-25 18:51:15 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos, you are trying to hard Roll To try to make out that an AFK flag will benefit just me is very fail.

Local and AFK cloaky camping are normally linked by people who want easy kills

Haha, of course I understand marginal cost, you make so much effort to attack the person with snide comments against them like that, when you have not come out with one argument that actually works against my proposal.

My suggestion does not change cloaks and attacks the most annoying part of AFK cloaky camping, the AFK part, plus it has a conflict driver with a OS in space to shoot.


You cannot be that thick.

The only reason why we are talking about a thing called AFK-cloaking is BECAUSE of local. It's the only thing that gives it the "power" to scare the living crap out of people who have been taught to use local as a binary safety-system. Because local gives you 100% accurate, always up to date information about who is in the system, it empowers someone sitting in the system to be a nuisance even without doing anything, just by the mere presence of their name in local. If you honestly think that local has nothing to do with this discussion, then you are a fool.


My opinion is that people who use that line of argument on local are just after easy kills, it would be so easy to kill stuff with BLOP's and hot drops it would be laughable. If there was to be no local at all we would also need to get rid of all that free intel on the map and Dotlan, plus the ADM system too. Personally if CCP did that then I would be quite happy to say good bye to local, however the knock on effect would be massive because you would need scouts to cover every damn gate, every WH and have people scouting the normal muster points of hot droppers. It would become a massive bind and make the game even more niche. Actually just get rid of cyno's then I will agree.


And there you go again....

Wander has not said that local should simply be removed. He is pointing out the link between AFK cloak camping and local. Which you admit...and yet here you are trying to shoe horn him into some straw man position.


People who link AFK cloaky camping to Local are just having a dig at local, pure and simple. Get rid of other free intel and cyno's and then we can talk.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6433 - 2016-07-25 18:53:28 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


People who link AFK cloaky camping to Local are just having a dig at local, pure and simple. Get rid of other free intel and cyno's and then we can talk.


Or they are describing the nature of the problem and looking for a solution.

As for other free intel, that has been the general consensus, it needs to go.

Cynos are fine, you are just wrong on that one.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6434 - 2016-07-25 18:54:35 UTC
And I'll note you are quite nicely ignoring the fixed cost structure implies a zero marginal cost point I've made.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6435 - 2016-07-25 20:25:53 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


People who link AFK cloaky camping to Local are just having a dig at local, pure and simple. Get rid of other free intel and cyno's and then we can talk.


Or they are describing the nature of the problem and looking for a solution.

As for other free intel, that has been the general consensus, it needs to go.

Cynos are fine, you are just wrong on that one.


Nope, they are either crying that local makes it too difficult to kill things because they are fail or trying to divert attention from the real issue.

Or a significant dely on cyno's then.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6436 - 2016-07-25 21:18:56 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


People who link AFK cloaky camping to Local are just having a dig at local, pure and simple. Get rid of other free intel and cyno's and then we can talk.


Or they are describing the nature of the problem and looking for a solution.

As for other free intel, that has been the general consensus, it needs to go.

Cynos are fine, you are just wrong on that one.


Nope, they are either crying that local makes it too difficult to kill things because they are fail or trying to divert attention from the real issue.

Or a significant dely on cyno's then.



There you go again assuming you know what people thing.

Local and AFK cloak camping are linked. No local no AFK cloak camping. You might AFK cloak, but not to camp and deny resources. AFK camping only works at this time thanks to local.

And again, cynos are fine they do not need to nerfed any further.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#6437 - 2016-07-25 22:04:47 UTC
The reason this "problem only exist in sov-null is due to the unique way risk-calculation are done in there.

-Highsec risk calculations revolve around wars and known gankers
-Lowsec risk calculations are done based on flags and corporations/alliances
-Wormhole-space, you just assume you aren't alone and work accordingly. Teamwork is a big advantage.
-Sov-null does it by standings between alliances and by who is in the system or coming towards you. Over the years it has boiled down to is the guy in local blue or not. If not blue = You are going to dock or you are dead. No other choices. The binary-nature and the intelligence from local make "AFK-cloaking" as effective as it is.

Local is the reason why this issue only appears in sov-null, where your only risk calculation is done from the people in local. If you want to fix AFK-cloaking, local is an integral part of that conversation. Even your AFK-flag "fix" relies on local to supply that information.

Nowhere in my post (this one or the previous one) have I said that I want to remove local. I'm just reminding you that it is an integral part of tis conversation. Stop trying to read between the lines for things that aren't there.

Wormholer for life.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6438 - 2016-07-26 05:34:05 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


People who link AFK cloaky camping to Local are just having a dig at local, pure and simple. Get rid of other free intel and cyno's and then we can talk.


Or they are describing the nature of the problem and looking for a solution.

As for other free intel, that has been the general consensus, it needs to go.

Cynos are fine, you are just wrong on that one.


Nope, they are either crying that local makes it too difficult to kill things because they are fail or trying to divert attention from the real issue.

Or a significant dely on cyno's then.



There you go again assuming you know what people thing.

Local and AFK cloak camping are linked. No local no AFK cloak camping. You might AFK cloak, but not to camp and deny resources. AFK camping only works at this time thanks to local.

And again, cynos are fine they do not need to nerfed any further.


Cyno's have not been nerfed, Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6439 - 2016-07-26 05:39:00 UTC
My 5LY Nidhoggur does not agree.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6440 - 2016-07-26 05:41:17 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
The reason this "problem only exist in sov-null is due to the unique way risk-calculation are done in there.

-Highsec risk calculations revolve around wars and known gankers
-Lowsec risk calculations are done based on flags and corporations/alliances
-Wormhole-space, you just assume you aren't alone and work accordingly. Teamwork is a big advantage.
-Sov-null does it by standings between alliances and by who is in the system or coming towards you. Over the years it has boiled down to is the guy in local blue or not. If not blue = You are going to dock or you are dead. No other choices. The binary-nature and the intelligence from local make "AFK-cloaking" as effective as it is.

Local is the reason why this issue only appears in sov-null, where your only risk calculation is done from the people in local. If you want to fix AFK-cloaking, local is an integral part of that conversation. Even your AFK-flag "fix" relies on local to supply that information.

Nowhere in my post (this one or the previous one) have I said that I want to remove local. I'm just reminding you that it is an integral part of tis conversation. Stop trying to read between the lines for things that aren't there.



I suggested that you go and do what I did which is operate out of NPC 0.0 which you did not even mention in your list, because you have people in system and you operate in spite of them being in local, which is what I did and many others do. The AFK flag is based on my experience of playing in NPC 0.0 where people can use the stations no issue and you share systems with people hostile to you.

As I said local is not the issue, all it does is allows people like you easier kills.

The simple fact is that it is AFK play and that is what my proposal is aimed at, I want to stop this lame AFK play.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp