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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5781 - 2016-03-31 18:36:32 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
So W-space -style local in nullsec? I don't have any issues with that

Not the local : the free intel you have onramp like Dotlan with npc kill by instant ect. Yes in null you have a local, but you can't close you're gate, all people in universe can know you are here due to statistic of you're system. It's why you have a local.
So perma cloack are here to disrupt local if you want, but they need to be hunt if afk, like ALL kind of player. No incivility mechanic must be allowed. Be clocked actually mean be safe.


You seem to be willing to sacrifice any sense of balance and nerf any mechanic as long as you can keep bearing in 100% safety. Removing the statistics (which are already delayed btw) would make finding ANY activity much harder. Again nerfing 99%working mechanics to fix you 1% "issue" to keep you going AFK-ratting. Please stop trying to balance anything.

i don"t make AFK ratting, i just said if you want to have cloak ship perfect with no local in 0,0 start to give advantage to 0,0 like this, same as WH in fact.
1% "issue": you agree afk cloack are problem. THANK: so you agree to ad a game mechanic to decloack afk people like special anti colloquy scanner who detect cloack if they don't move 15 minutes.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#5782 - 2016-03-31 18:53:54 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
So W-space -style local in nullsec? I don't have any issues with that

Not the local : the free intel you have onramp like Dotlan with npc kill by instant ect. Yes in null you have a local, but you can't close you're gate, all people in universe can know you are here due to statistic of you're system. It's why you have a local.
So perma cloack are here to disrupt local if you want, but they need to be hunt if afk, like ALL kind of player. No incivility mechanic must be allowed. Be clocked actually mean be safe.


You seem to be willing to sacrifice any sense of balance and nerf any mechanic as long as you can keep bearing in 100% safety. Removing the statistics (which are already delayed btw) would make finding ANY activity much harder. Again nerfing 99%working mechanics to fix you 1% "issue" to keep you going AFK-ratting. Please stop trying to balance anything.

i don"t make AFK ratting, i just said if you want to have cloak ship perfect with no local in 0,0 start to give advantage to 0,0 like this, same as WH in fact.
1% "issue": you agree afk cloack are problem. THANK: so you agree to ad a game mechanic to decloack afk people like special anti colloquy scanner who detect cloack if they don't move 15 minutes.


No, I don't agree that cloaks are a problem. If cloaks were an issue, there would be people complaining about them OUTSIDE nullsec bears. Somehow the only people who have an issue with cloaks are the one living in the most dangerous parts of space. I don't really understand why you are supposed to be 100% safe just by looking at local and intel-channels.

I disagree completely that the right way to fix this non-existing "issue" is to nerf cloaks, as they are currently very balanced by being unable to lock anything or use any modules, not to mention that you have worse stats overall for having the ability to run a covert ops -cloak for example. I don't care about afk-cloaking. I care about all the other cloak-users who would be bulldozed under the current suggestions for "fixing" afk-cloaking. The whole issue with AFK-cloaking is in your head. There are many ways you can be at least decently safe from the cloaker, but somehow nobody seems to be willing to use them.

Wormholer for life.
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5783 - 2016-03-31 19:17:41 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:


No, I don't agree that cloaks are a problem. If cloaks were an issue, there would be people complaining about them OUTSIDE nullsec bears. Somehow the only people who have an issue with cloaks are the one living in the most dangerous parts of space. I don't really understand why you are supposed to be 100% safe just by looking at local and intel-channels.





I don't want be 100% safe. But i want AFK colloquy are not 100 % safe, and actually they are 100 % safe.If you are active, you move, you do somethinf right ? So you will have no problem if the scanner is make to only decloack afk. You understand this ?

When people ask to nerf perma cloack for AFK you said " fu a carebear", but you don't think it's just because i want to hunt afk colloquy people ? generate KM and content on head of afk people who absue of colloquy device to be " 100%"safe.

If you are a pvp player you must agree: ad a counter to afk cloack create content, and only against AFK cloack. Hunt they and kill they :p other case you are a "pvpbear".
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#5784 - 2016-04-01 06:10:27 UTC
What I'm saying is that there needs to be balance. If you get the ability to find cloaked ships, then the cloaked ship shouldn't show up in local.

Wormholer for life.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#5785 - 2016-04-01 17:00:52 UTC
Tian Toralen wrote:
I do a lot of exploration. If there is a cloaked camper in my system, it's his bussiness to be there, while not afk.
If he keeps me stressed because he left his char there while he sleeps - that is not ok.


If you're in HS it doesn't make a difference. Since you are in null I assume you're on comms and in a standing defense fleet 100% of the time you are playing, so you have friends to come save you. Right?
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5786 - 2016-04-02 15:47:50 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
What I'm saying is that there needs to be balance. If you get the ability to find cloaked ships, then the cloaked ship shouldn't show up in local.

Yea no problem, if we can find and kill they .
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#5787 - 2016-04-02 18:15:16 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
What I'm saying is that there needs to be balance. If you get the ability to find cloaked ships, then the cloaked ship shouldn't show up in local.

Yea no problem, if we can find and kill they .


Now the problem is in the details. How do you make it fair and balanced. How do you define being AFK? How do you make it so that using cloaks is still a valid tactic without making them feel underpowered or otherwise useless?

Wormholer for life.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5788 - 2016-04-02 23:10:24 UTC
Funny. I read "yea no problem, if we can find and kill them" as "sure, remove cloaked ships from local and then give us anticloaker probes".

That sounds reasonably balanced to me. Especially if there were to be delayed local chat that allows us to cloak up during that time so that we wouldn't even briefly show up. Nice buff to roaming gangs and cloaky hunters; nicely offset by the ability to hunt the cloaker back.

Perhaps Dictateur should elaborate what he meant for I interpreted it as being in agreement: fix local, then give us the ability to pinpoint them.
Ace Aideron
Red Falcon Group
#5789 - 2016-04-04 09:08:28 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Now the problem is in the details. How do you make it fair and balanced. How do you define being AFK? How do you make it so that using cloaks is still a valid tactic without making them feel underpowered or otherwise useless?

Now that we have new timers for things like jump fatigue, what about another timer for cloaking? If the timer finishes counting down, you uncloak. If you manually uncloak and re-cloak, the timer resets. Easy.

Exactly how long the timer should be would answer the first part of your question. Maybe 60 minutes? That should be long enough even for blopsers.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5790 - 2016-04-04 17:23:16 UTC
Ace Aideron wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Now the problem is in the details. How do you make it fair and balanced. How do you define being AFK? How do you make it so that using cloaks is still a valid tactic without making them feel underpowered or otherwise useless?

Now that we have new timers for things like jump fatigue, what about another timer for cloaking? If the timer finishes counting down, you uncloak. If you manually uncloak and re-cloak, the timer resets. Easy.

Exactly how long the timer should be would answer the first part of your question. Maybe 60 minutes? That should be long enough even for blopsers.



I found another wormhole virgin
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#5791 - 2016-04-04 21:50:58 UTC
Ace Aideron wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Now the problem is in the details. How do you make it fair and balanced. How do you define being AFK? How do you make it so that using cloaks is still a valid tactic without making them feel underpowered or otherwise useless?

Now that we have new timers for things like jump fatigue, what about another timer for cloaking? If the timer finishes counting down, you uncloak. If you manually uncloak and re-cloak, the timer resets. Easy.

Exactly how long the timer should be would answer the first part of your question. Maybe 60 minutes? That should be long enough even for blopsers.


I don't even.....

Again we are nerfing active gameplay to fix a niche-issue. Any kind of timer or fuel will just make using cloaks every day be a pain in the ass. You are supposed to have the ability to choose when you engage, not be on the whim of a clock ticking.

Wormholer for life.
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5792 - 2016-04-06 09:29:39 UTC
Read all the post before cry:

Problem of AFK cloack: we can't find they to kill they in space. (Be docked/in pos don"t make you are invincible, enemy must just spend ressource to take pos/station). You have 0 way to kill an afk cloack hide in a system for the moment.

So first ad decloack probe who find a cloack , but don't decloack him unless end of a timer, who allow you to click on "decloack and warp". Timer will depend of 2 thing : Cloack level of target and probe skill of people who probe him. For perfect skill we can imagine you are find in 5 min . (if you are in T1 cloack and you see anti cloack probe, maybe think to warp out every 5 min... or you are afk ?). For T2 15 minutes. YES i know people will cry "in battle my bomber team is same place during 45 min, you must fix it, just warp out/ back in you're place. Not a big deal really.

Problem of local: you have all information. You want remove local/delayed him? go in WH dude, WH can collapse WH to be safe, you have 0 statistic on systems, way to go in WH change everyday, you have no cyan. If you want delayed/remove local in null, ok , but remove all age, just WH in 0,0, cancel all kind of cyno ect...
Or you can solve local problem by a new module:
Anti-"local" systeme T1:
30 S cycle, at END of the first cycle you become invisible on local. But : you can't warp and you can't cloack. You're signature radius is increase by 10 .
T2:
5 s cycle (depend of technical thing), you are invisible on local. You can't cloack. Signature radius increase by 5. Can be only fit on some ship (list must be elaborate).

So: local is not a good source of intel, you must combat probe to find invisible on local. Cloack people afk can be find. More KM, more strat.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#5793 - 2016-04-06 15:49:52 UTC
I've read each and every post for the last 30+pages and I've learned some things:

-99% of the people who have a problem with "afk-cloaks", live in sov-null.
-99% of the people who suggest how to fix the " issue" are willing to nerf cloaking into nothingness for the sole reason that they don't feel it's balanced without thinking about the rest of EVE and how they use cloaks.

Newsflash:
Cloaking IS balanced. For the ability to not be found, you pay in being unable to activate modules, worse stats and big pricetag. The ONLY trump-card that cloaks have, is that they can choose the time of action. They wait for that perfect opportunity.

I'm not here to defend afk-cloaking. I'm here to defend all the other usage-cases. Just one thing though. Afk-cloaking is the direct counter to locals 100% up to date Intel that is freely given. Had nullsec not weaponized local for intel-gathering, would nobody be bothering cloaking up in a system.

Wormholer for life.
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5794 - 2016-04-06 17:04:05 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
I've read each and every post for the last 30+pages and I've learned some things:

-99% of the people who have a problem with "afk-cloaks", live in sov-null.
-99% of the people who suggest how to fix the " issue" are willing to nerf cloaking into nothingness for the sole reason that they don't feel it's balanced without thinking about the rest of EVE and how they use cloaks.

Newsflash:
Cloaking IS balanced. For the ability to not be found, you pay in being unable to activate modules, worse stats and big pricetag. The ONLY trump-card that cloaks have, is that they can choose the time of action. They wait for that perfect opportunity.

I'm not here to defend afk-cloaking. I'm here to defend all the other usage-cases. Just one thing though. Afk-cloaking is the direct counter to locals 100% up to date Intel that is freely given. Had nullsec not weaponized local for intel-gathering, would nobody be bothering cloaking up in a system.



And who is the counter to kill afk cloack ? You have counter to local, ok why not, and counter against AFK cloack ? if you afk in mining/ratting/other you will die. if you afk cloack no problem.? AFK cloack must be fixed.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#5795 - 2016-04-06 18:32:38 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
I've read each and every post for the last 30+pages and I've learned some things:

-99% of the people who have a problem with "afk-cloaks", live in sov-null.
-99% of the people who suggest how to fix the " issue" are willing to nerf cloaking into nothingness for the sole reason that they don't feel it's balanced without thinking about the rest of EVE and how they use cloaks.

Newsflash:
Cloaking IS balanced. For the ability to not be found, you pay in being unable to activate modules, worse stats and big pricetag. The ONLY trump-card that cloaks have, is that they can choose the time of action. They wait for that perfect opportunity.

I'm not here to defend afk-cloaking. I'm here to defend all the other usage-cases. Just one thing though. Afk-cloaking is the direct counter to locals 100% up to date Intel that is freely given. Had nullsec not weaponized local for intel-gathering, would nobody be bothering cloaking up in a system.



And who is the counter to kill afk cloack ? You have counter to local, ok why not, and counter against AFK cloack ? if you afk in mining/ratting/other you will die. if you afk cloack no problem.? AFK cloack must be fixed.


There are many ways you can counter the cloaker, though they may not be direct counters, which is just fine with me, since the whole idea of cloaks is to be non-direct.

Wormholer for life.
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5796 - 2016-04-06 19:49:09 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
I've read each and every post for the last 30+pages and I've learned some things:

-99% of the people who have a problem with "afk-cloaks", live in sov-null.
-99% of the people who suggest how to fix the " issue" are willing to nerf cloaking into nothingness for the sole reason that they don't feel it's balanced without thinking about the rest of EVE and how they use cloaks.

Newsflash:
Cloaking IS balanced. For the ability to not be found, you pay in being unable to activate modules, worse stats and big pricetag. The ONLY trump-card that cloaks have, is that they can choose the time of action. They wait for that perfect opportunity.

I'm not here to defend afk-cloaking. I'm here to defend all the other usage-cases. Just one thing though. Afk-cloaking is the direct counter to locals 100% up to date Intel that is freely given. Had nullsec not weaponized local for intel-gathering, would nobody be bothering cloaking up in a system.



And who is the counter to kill afk cloack ? You have counter to local, ok why not, and counter against AFK cloack ? if you afk in mining/ratting/other you will die. if you afk cloack no problem.? AFK cloack must be fixed.


There are many ways you can counter the cloaker, though they may not be direct counters, which is just fine with me, since the whole idea of cloaks is to be non-direct.

You can't kill afk cloak if he is a true afk player. It's the problem.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#5797 - 2016-04-06 20:04:33 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
You can't kill afk cloak if he is a true afk player. It's the problem.


No it's not. Someone truly AFK is no threat. No one can kill you if they aren't at their keyboard.
Bingham McSnuggles
Bobs Wrath
Kickstart my Heart
#5798 - 2016-04-07 04:09:20 UTC
The only thing which is really annoying about the whole cloaking thingy, is the fact that a lot of players abuse it.
now u may ask "? how to abuse it?"

pretty easy. having 10 characters/ several accounts ( and even more....) most of them set in systems around the pocket ( and inthe pocket itself) of the corp/alliance ( u got paid ) to harass.
all with cyno. online 24/7.wait for worthy target. jump on it ( most likely multiboxing miners, or guys ratting in blingy ships) kill it, go back to cloaky camp spot.
people say" well when he is afk he is no thread, just making u paranoid"...u all assume the cloaky camper has some kind of real life...ever thought of guys without a job or friends or wife ( yes these people exist, in large numbers )? really sitting in front of their monitors all day and the weirdest times.these people are a pain in the ass.
most likely with some RMT in the back..which itself is ridicolous, thinking of people getting paid with real money to harass players of a computer game....

there is not much left to do as counter. only way is be in standing fleet all day...have cyno fitted...hope people react when u get hotdropped. or switch to completely different constelation , which can be quite difficult in 0.0.

so in other words..if your corp/ally is unlucky to have a paid merc without real life ,using A LOTS of toons to camp ur area..u pretty ******. u will kill the guy several times..but at the end he has way better kill/isk ratio.

i read a lot of the posts here, with some good ideas about "nerf" cloaking.
i really would like to see ccp do something like an afk timer asking after 2hours " u still alive? pls react or we log u out in 5min" to avoid the real afk cloakers ( really this is so ridiculos, only game i know u can be afk 12 hours)
And cap/fuel drain on being cloaked, would be a logical step to do. so u cant be cloaked longer then 1-2 hours at once.
because cloaky camping with multiple toons, rdy to hotdrop on some poor miners or someone in the middle of a ratting site, is the poorest form of "pvp". its like slapping a lollipop out of a five years old childs mouth.

i really often stumble over accusions like " such poeple must have a small penis".....maybe its true :D i dont know.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#5799 - 2016-04-07 08:17:46 UTC
You are living in the most dangerous part of the game and complain because it's not safe...

Wormholer for life.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#5800 - 2016-04-07 17:18:18 UTC
Bingham McSnuggles wrote:
The only thing which is really annoying about the whole cloaking thingy, is the fact that a lot of players abuse it.
now u may ask "? how to abuse it?"

pretty easy. having 10 characters/ several accounts ( and even more....) most of them set in systems around the pocket ( and inthe pocket itself) of the corp/alliance ( u got paid ) to harass.
all with cyno. online 24/7.wait for worthy target. jump on it ( most likely multiboxing miners, or guys ratting in blingy ships) kill it, go back to cloaky camp spot.
people say" well when he is afk he is no thread, just making u paranoid"...u all assume the cloaky camper has some kind of real life...ever thought of guys without a job or friends or wife ( yes these people exist, in large numbers )? really sitting in front of their monitors all day and the weirdest times.these people are a pain in the ass.
most likely with some RMT in the back..which itself is ridicolous, thinking of people getting paid with real money to harass players of a computer game....

there is not much left to do as counter. only way is be in standing fleet all day...have cyno fitted...hope people react when u get hotdropped. or switch to completely different constelation , which can be quite difficult in 0.0.

so in other words..if your corp/ally is unlucky to have a paid merc without real life ,using A LOTS of toons to camp ur area..u pretty ******. u will kill the guy several times..but at the end he has way better kill/isk ratio.

i read a lot of the posts here, with some good ideas about "nerf" cloaking.
i really would like to see ccp do something like an afk timer asking after 2hours " u still alive? pls react or we log u out in 5min" to avoid the real afk cloakers ( really this is so ridiculos, only game i know u can be afk 12 hours)
And cap/fuel drain on being cloaked, would be a logical step to do. so u cant be cloaked longer then 1-2 hours at once.
because cloaky camping with multiple toons, rdy to hotdrop on some poor miners or someone in the middle of a ratting site, is the poorest form of "pvp". its like slapping a lollipop out of a five years old childs mouth.

i really often stumble over accusions like " such poeple must have a small penis".....maybe its true :D i dont know.


Why on earth would you live outside of HS if you aren't in a standing defense fleet 100% of the time?

Even if you lose a ratting/mining ship to a hot dropper, having that standing fleet ready (again, which you should have 100% of the time) will get you a bigger kill and let you win the ISK war