Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Let me see if I can put something into actual words:

I am a wormholer (big surprise there), but I try to keep up with things in other parts of space too. If someone has something to correct, please help me out here:

Doing PVE in a wormhole:

Any serious WH-corp who thinks of doing PVE will know to minimize possible accidents by critting or closing any extra wormholes to make things safer as well as have a scout looking for extra signatures and possibly making sure nobody jumps through the wormhole, just in case. Usually, if you live in the same hole, you know there's nobody logged off to kill you, but in case you are doing PVE down the chain, you need to make sure the locals won't get you either, so you have a scout there too.

All this work and still it doesn't ensure you don't get dropped on. It happens almost daily in w-space. Somebody somehwere will lose a capital or the whole PVE-fleet, because a new signature had opened up.

Yes we have ways to make risks smaller, but we cannot eliminate it. And IF we get killed, it usually means you are podded out to highsec, which means you are out of the fight completely. We cannot just burn right back into the fight



Doing PVE in sovnull:

You pick a system, usually a dead end or near there, make sure that the cynojammer is online and that the intel channels don't scream at you yet. You go doing the site while keeping an eye at the intel-channels and local. Worst case scenario, you get a warning as someone jumps into the system so you know they aren't on grid with you, at best you'll have a good 10-15 min warning before a gang gets to your neck of the woods. All you have to do is weigh the odds and warp to safety when you feel like it


In K-space, especially in Sov-null you have so much early warning that the only way to catch you is if you make an error or are AFK. The reason people hang around in systems for days is to tip the odds into the attackers favour abit.

A single guy in local still doesn't mean you are out of options though.
You can:
A) Log off
B) Move systems
C) Bait him
D) Do research on him and figure out when he's the most likely to be actually online and risk it

Or simply quitting the game...because of one dude in a cloaked ship. OMG, there is a red in system and so after 8 years, that's it I'm logging off, uninstalling.

Thanks Wander...so I'll draw some parallels, let me know if I'm full of Bravo Sierra...

So in a WH, a new WH opening up is like a covert ops cyno in NS, but even worse in that while a capital cannot jump through a cov ops cyno, in W-space that can indeed happen.

You guys actually do have a guy who "stands watch" sits there and scans for new wormholes? If this is true, this is something that those opposed to AFK cloaking really, really dislike. Pretty much it boils down to "not making ISK", IMO.

You hide (right click, ignore) the known sigs and/or crit them. Then as soon as something new pops up on the (by now 100% clean) scanner, you have someone all over it. Though it it's a rage roll, you're hosed anyway. Sometimes it's its just another site or a random WH.

This is the core reason I bounced the "signature" idea from Mike. Once your hole is scanned, your probe view is (or should be) empty.

If you're down a chain then yes, it's cloaky eyes everywhere.

Yes that is a pretty accurate description, especially since most sites rats scram and web you .
If you do PVE in large scale, be it with capitals or not, you have a scout watching over for new sigs and sometimes even watching the wormholes in case of people jumping in.

You don't know what system is on the other side before you jump someone in. So a scout goes first, let's know the J-ID that we can check for system effects and the scout tells if there's something interesting on D-scan.

There's really only 2 wormhole effects that mandate a change of doctrine. Those are a Pulsar (bonus to shield, debuff to armor) and Wolf Rayet (Bonus to armor, debuff to shield) Most others can be gotten around with tactics.

Lets see the impact on implicit threat after translating to null-sec

1. sov holder ability to close jump gates (collapse wormholes in wormspeak. I will use gate consistently as we are describing 0-sec).
Yah, that would definitely decrease implicit threats.

2. New gate spawn
Little impact on implicit threat level. The spawn is not player controlled, so is unlikely to spawn at a location with hostiles willing and able to take advantage of it even if it did spawn.

Using an alt to guard on outside any spawned gate would decrease implicit risk, might have hardware requirements (a 2ndary laptop). Alternately a newbro would work (this is more a cyno you can jump through, then camp with eyes on the other side to give warning of anyone approaching to use the cyno if we were to insist on that analogy).

3. Omni damage rats
Definitely relevant. Tanking omni damage lessens perception of vulnerability to exploiting holes in tank (yay drone space)

4. Powerful rats
Definitely relevant. Encourages cooperative ratting (or multi character ratting). The perception of safety is greater in numbers, particularly if omni tanked so people are fitted for pvp capability. If combined with point/scram/web rats, then ratting fleet also has tackle on board to deter hostiles.

5. Ecosystem adaptation (including tactics).
No particular reason to worry much that hostiles are well-versed in the specifics of relevant tactics even if they have tailored fittings and skills to match the local system ecosystem.

6. No local clones.
Decreased implicit threat. Translates effectively to implant choice. Implants cannot be easily swapped, so players will use implants they can afford to lose. Known space pilots have the illusion of implant swap capability, but the 24 hour limit often renders change impractical.

There seems to be a number of mechanisms in wormhole space that decreases implicit threats.

"It makes the failures more deadly, but the chance of failure much less."

Implicit threat decrease when volatility decreases

If we wanted to make the point in jerghulspeak :).

Edit
Lets look at the wormhole things I think are helpful for nullsec:

1. Rats 2.0
Break up the tailored tanks by adding more omni damage rat fleets (imagine the rats cross trade ships. Mix it up a bit)
More ewar rats that can act as surrogate tackle for ratting vessels
A bit stronger sites to make it more small gang pvp'ish

These measures would protect ratters from themselves basically. Trend towards making ratters more small gang pvp ready.

Basically, one thing a wormholer can't do without actively watching his entrances, is merely aligning to an exit and call it "safe". The wormhole ain't safe until they make it so. And so is your NS ratting system, except then your isk/hr drops below HS levels.

But never ever assume there's no cloaker in system watching your every move -- because there are, waiting to jump on your unsuspecting Gila. Some guys simply don't have the numbers to watch every entrance; and collapsing them is also quite tedious and cuts into your isk/hr ... after all, scanning and collapsing and securing are all activities that don't generate isk, right?

Whenever people start comparing nullsec-without-local to wormholes, I feel like they're forgetting half of the story...

First, I'll note you left local off the list. And of course removing local basically removes the implicit threat. People only freak out about AFK cloakers because they can see them.

Also, it is an attitude thing. Worm holers are fine with no local. PvE pilots who complain about AFK cloaking...they never live in worm holes.

Further, I contend that 1 can lead to a false sense of safety and 2 should actually increase the implicit threat level. Just as with a cloaked player in local and not knowing when he'll go active...you don't know when a worm hole or more than one will form. And based on the two players experienced with worm hole life...they are prepared for that eventuality pretty much all the time.

Compare this to the typical PvE pilot in a bling boat to max ISK/hour. Where the idea of a scout one system out is horrible because it means less ISK/hour. Having a standing fleet....you mean I might have to stop ratting and go help a guy out? WTF have you been smoking!!!