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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Titus Madullier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3761 - 2015-12-05 01:14:46 UTC
How about we make a game out of it! Im living and null and havent been on all that much because a cloaky is in our pocket. This is not fun and slows production to a halt because of one person.

My thought on this is that why dont we have some "type" of game with people using d-scan as sonar. A group of people can go out and use there d-scan to get pings of where the cloaky is or after so many pings it decloaks. Like battleships it takes more than one ping to locate an submarine

Having it a "group" of people makes it so that it can not be used for trolling and it will give experince for people to work together to get the cloaky person.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3762 - 2015-12-05 01:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Brokk Witgenstein
Sonar has been proposed, and I like that idea very much. It'd be a hoot! Not very practical, but pure *rofl* just the same. I absolutely positively love it. Too bad it got swept under the carpet and lost in between the whines -- but yeah. Hell yeah. It'll see some niche use at best, but that's okay.

I can vividly imagine how that would work; one day I picked up an anchored bubble on DScan, didn't see it anywhere though. Being too lazy to grab a probe launcher, I tried to pinpoint it at 5 degree scan and warped to-and-fro until I got reasonably close. For 5hits 'n giggles, I then double clicked towards it, full burn. Some 2973km off the gate, I finally came on grid with this mysteriously misplaced bubble. It was one of the most ret4rded ways to locate objects in space but oh! We were laughing our asses off Big smile

Aye Sir. You get a cookie. Hell, have two! :rofl:
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3763 - 2015-12-05 02:10:01 UTC
Needless to say, it wouldn't "fix" anything. If people could locate cloakies, we'd see a whole new kind of cloaky camping: white knight bait. Instead of actively hunting a target, one could patiently lay in wait, hoping for targets to catch us. For which we would no longer use/need a covops cloak but a regular one slapped onto a smartbombing BS or a heavy DIC. Why hunt prey if the prey is desperately trying to get to you?

Oh man. Sonars could be so much fun. Here! Have another cookie Cool


This also opens up a wide array of midslot "Dscan Enhancements" -- ability to ping cloakers, automated DScan without having to click, extended DScan range, ... unfortunately these BPCs would be rare drops in heavily fortified null sites, and I still don't have a ratting ship. Darn.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3764 - 2015-12-05 05:34:32 UTC
I would be for that too. Really any option other than " leave him alone" and fly suicidal or gimped.

It was suggested before, but like anything else that puts the camper in any kind of risk whatsoever it was discounted on grounds that cloaks should remain perfect.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3765 - 2015-12-05 05:38:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Dude he died IN WARP


"Incompetent" is a bit harsh...I feel like you're not all that au fait with all the mechanics your arguing about.

I'm with the others, your argument hinges on local being a thing. Take it away and you've got nothing.


A point I have raised many times. Sitting at a safe spot, while cloaked…yeah you are pretty much immune barring the crazy low probability event that some guy just happens to land close enough while setting his own safe spot. Even then, setting an initial safe, then burning away from it in a direction other than the line on which you warped or anyone else can warp on between celestials (i.e. align in a direction not in line with a celestial) will essentially remove even this crazy low probability danger.

But at the same time you are…sitting at a safe….cloaked. You cannot harm anyone. You cannot activate a module. You can’t do much of anything really except stuff you could do while docked, except for D-scan.

However, when you are doing something, like warping to a gate, or a POS, a station, etc. now the risk goes up.

In the example being discussed, that guy did nothing wrong, he was not (necessarily) incompetent, he ran into a ball of rokhs with smart bombs going off while in a covert ops frig...he was dead as soon as he warped.



He did nothing wrong?

So you are telling me he warped right to a gate with known hostiles in system, with no scout and with the option of dropping in anywhere from 100km to zero, and that wasn't maybe a little reckless? Weren't you the one claiming that sort of thing as risk-seeking behavior?

I still don't know how you can tell he was cloaked, or in warp... But the scenario you described was completely his choice and completely avoidable.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3766 - 2015-12-05 06:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Why is it OK they get that for free and totally uncounterable?


It is counterable. Bait them. rat in a PvP fit, have friends logged off right next to you and jump them when they attack you. Have a standing fleet.

Killboards, forum posts, watch lists, locator agents, local chat, chat channels are all free intel. Assuming you want to nerf those as well? Or do you want to finally admit you are a hypocrite?


Bait isn't a counter. They must choose to take it.

Rat in PvP fit isn't counter. It makes you less attractive to attack, still inflicts financial damage, and they still get to choose if they attack.

Logged friends or standing fleet that didn't already exist is just wasting everyone's time, and isn't a counter unless he chooses to attack.

In every case it hinges upon the camper choosing to break his camp voluntarily. That's not a counter, that's wishful thinking.

I am not the hypocrite here. I assume you want all that free Intel gone along with local too?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3767 - 2015-12-05 06:29:14 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Just effing undock and do some PVE. If you get dropped on, your suspicions will be confirmed; if you don't, your suspicions are invalid. It's a game, play it or find something that better suits you because you are obviously too much of a pansy to play EVE.

Most likely the cloaky is there for intel purposes, either monitoring traffic or keeping an eye on a POS.



...and? Maybe I don't want them to have that intel or look at that POS.

Why is it OK they get that for free and totally uncounterable?

Right around the time you admit that a cloaked ship can have some value and is in fact doing something, rather than nothing, the entire argument supporting them in their current state falls apart.


You have local chat. That's free intel. Let's remove that too.


You should really read the thread.

Local isn't free Intel, or a defense of any kind.

For local to be useful, it must first be cleared. Either by moving far away from everyone else, or clearing it by force.

When you park a cloaked in a system you are using a single, trivial to fit module to undo the work of potentially hundreds of active players who have fought to make that space theirs.

That is not really relevant to cloaks however. Change local however you like and cloaks will still be broken so long as they remain without counter.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3768 - 2015-12-05 06:31:44 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Rat in PvP fit isn't counter. It makes you less attractive to attack, still inflicts financial damage, and they still get to choose if they attack.


How would he know your fit? Magic?

Quote:
In every case it hinges upon the camper choosing to break his camp voluntarily. That's not a counter, that's wishful thinking.


Or decide not too, and you get to make use of your system. As I pointed out, ratting in a group with PvP fit ships not only will you burn through the anomalies, you wont be attacked except my a considerably larger force.

Quote:
I am not the hypocrite here. I assume you want all that free Intel gone along with local too?


First off if he is AFK he is not getting any intel. And yeah, I'm fine with making cloaked ships detectable so long as local is radically changed.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3769 - 2015-12-05 06:34:41 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
No that doesn't wash. You're sitting there saying any time someone PvEs with a neut in system they die stupidly. It's not just unbelievable but ridiculous to even attempt to claim.

And the "control" of space has nothing to do with cloakers. You're just moving the goalposts all over the place and going for the "LOOK! SQUIRREL!" approach to the debate.

It's actually pointless to debate any further because you seem genuinely unable to grasp the point I'm making,or you've not spent extensive time in WH, low or npc 0.0 space.


I am saying anyone who PvE with a hostile in system dies stupidly. What else would you call setting yourself up to fail like that? You undock in a ship that has almost no viability in a PvP fight with an opponent in system, and then proceed to shake your exhaust in space and dare him to slap it?

Ideally you reship and hunt him down...except you can't. The only option he gives you is die stupid or don't play- a fight won't happen so long as one of you has 100% control of innitiative and the other poses a danger.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3770 - 2015-12-05 06:38:54 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Rat in PvP fit isn't counter. It makes you less attractive to attack, still inflicts financial damage, and they still get to choose if they attack.


How would he know your fit? Magic?

Quote:
In every case it hinges upon the camper choosing to break his camp voluntarily. That's not a counter, that's wishful thinking.


Or decide not too, and you get to make use of your system. As I pointed out, ratting in a group with PvP fit ships not only will you burn through the anomalies, you wont be attacked except my a considerably larger force.

Quote:
I am not the hypocrite here. I assume you want all that free Intel gone along with local too?


First off if he is AFK he is not getting any intel. And yeah, I'm fine with making cloaked ships detectable so long as local is radically changed.


Sure, he chooses not to attack. He isn't countered, he just waits for a better opportunity.

Meanwhile the defenders are forced into substandard fits with no recourse to regain the damage he is inflicting.

That's the problem. There is no win, there is just a choice of how much to lose.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3771 - 2015-12-05 06:40:25 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Just effing undock and do some PVE. If you get dropped on, your suspicions will be confirmed; if you don't, your suspicions are invalid. It's a game, play it or find something that better suits you because you are obviously too much of a pansy to play EVE.

Most likely the cloaky is there for intel purposes, either monitoring traffic or keeping an eye on a POS.



...and? Maybe I don't want them to have that intel or look at that POS.

Why is it OK they get that for free and totally uncounterable?

Right around the time you admit that a cloaked ship can have some value and is in fact doing something, rather than nothing, the entire argument supporting them in their current state falls apart.


You have local chat. That's free intel. Let's remove that too.


You should really read the thread.

Local isn't free Intel, or a defense of any kind.

For local to be useful, it must first be cleared. Either by moving far away from everyone else, or clearing it by force.

When you park a cloaked in a system you are using a single, trivial to fit module to undo the work of potentially hundreds of active players who have fought to make that space theirs.

That is not really relevant to cloaks however. Change local however you like and cloaks will still be broken so long as they remain without counter.


Local is free. You do nothing to get it, it is always there in every system, even the sov you don't own.

Even when full local can still be damn useful. Have you not seen any of the web based features that let you parse the pilots in local quickly and accurate? Same with d-scan by the way.

And by your definition just about every module is trivial to fit. And that single player does NOT undue the work of hundreds of players. They still have sov, the stations and outposts, the POS fuel bonus, jump bridges, etc. What they don't have is the ability to fly around fat and dumb. When a hostile shows up cloaked or otherwise it should necessitate a change in behavior.

There are counters, just because you do not like them or do not avail yourself to them does not mean they do not exist.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3772 - 2015-12-05 06:43:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Rat in PvP fit isn't counter. It makes you less attractive to attack, still inflicts financial damage, and they still get to choose if they attack.


How would he know your fit? Magic?

Quote:
In every case it hinges upon the camper choosing to break his camp voluntarily. That's not a counter, that's wishful thinking.


Or decide not too, and you get to make use of your system. As I pointed out, ratting in a group with PvP fit ships not only will you burn through the anomalies, you wont be attacked except my a considerably larger force.

Quote:
I am not the hypocrite here. I assume you want all that free Intel gone along with local too?


First off if he is AFK he is not getting any intel. And yeah, I'm fine with making cloaked ships detectable so long as local is radically changed.


Sure, he chooses not to attack. He isn't countered, he just waits for a better opportunity.

Meanwhile the defenders are forced into substandard fits with no recourse to regain the damage he is inflicting.

That's the problem. There is no win, there is just a choice of how much to lose.


Yes, he is. He has either 2 goals:


  1. get kills and/or
  2. asset denial.


If he does neither while he is at his keyboard...he has been countered. As with the freighter bumping issue, the counters are to not get bumped in the first place. The counters to a cloaked player are similar, they may not be direct, but they are counters none-the-less.

BTW, "the damage he is inflicting" why don't you elucidate? What's that...you will not? Wow, I am shocked (probably because it will come right back to ISK/hour).

Oh, and 5-10 guys in PvP fit ishtars are not going to be be bothered by a single cloaky or even several cloakies. And, they'd burn through those anomalies right quick...oh and look with far, far less risk.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3773 - 2015-12-05 06:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Just effing undock and do some PVE. If you get dropped on, your suspicions will be confirmed; if you don't, your suspicions are invalid. It's a game, play it or find something that better suits you because you are obviously too much of a pansy to play EVE.

Most likely the cloaky is there for intel purposes, either monitoring traffic or keeping an eye on a POS.



...and? Maybe I don't want them to have that intel or look at that POS.

Why is it OK they get that for free and totally uncounterable?

Right around the time you admit that a cloaked ship can have some value and is in fact doing something, rather than nothing, the entire argument supporting them in their current state falls apart.


You have local chat. That's free intel. Let's remove that too.


You should really read the thread.

Local isn't free Intel, or a defense of any kind.

For local to be useful, it must first be cleared. Either by moving far away from everyone else, or clearing it by force.

When you park a cloaked in a system you are using a single, trivial to fit module to undo the work of potentially hundreds of active players who have fought to make that space theirs.

That is not really relevant to cloaks however. Change local however you like and cloaks will still be broken so long as they remain without counter.


Local is free. You do nothing to get it, it is always there in every system, even the sov you don't own.

Even when full local can still be damn useful. Have you not seen any of the web based features that let you parse the pilots in local quickly and accurate? Same with d-scan by the way.

And by your definition just about every module is trivial to fit. And that single player does NOT undue the work of hundreds of players. They still have sov, the stations and outposts, the POS fuel bonus, jump bridges, etc. What they don't have is the ability to fly around fat and dumb. When a hostile shows up cloaked or otherwise it should necessitate a change in behavior.

There are counters, just because you do not like them or do not avail yourself to them does not mean they do not exist.


We agree on that. When a hostile shows up, you don't fly around fat and dumb.

Just so we are clear here, you have agreed that a cloaked hostile in system does necessitate a defensive response to his presence....

An active, ongoing response.

Against an opponent who does not need to remain in anyway active, who is so secure while forcing that defensive response that debilitates the other uses the system might be put to that he can go afk indefinitely.

If you can't see the problem there, then you are just deliberately blind.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3774 - 2015-12-05 06:50:08 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
[quote=Mike Voidstar][quote=Teckos Pech]

Yes, he is. He has either 2 goals:


  1. get kills and/or
  2. asset denial.


If he does neither while he is at his keyboard...he has been countered. As with the freighter bumping issue, the counters are to not get bumped in the first place. The counters to a cloaked player are similar, they may not be direct, but they are counters none-the-less.

BTW, "the damage he is inflicting" why don't you elucidate? What's that...you will not? Wow, I am shocked (probably because it will come right back to ISK/hour).

Oh, and 5-10 guys in PvP fit ishtars are not going to be be bothered by a single cloaky or even several cloakies. And, they'd burn through those anomalies right quick...oh and look with far, far less risk.


He achieves asset denial either way. He creates a barrier of entry. Some pilots will be frozen out for a number of reasons, others will be forced to be less effective.

He remains effective in his goals from a completely secure and safe position.

His enemy was never safe, that's why he left the field.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3775 - 2015-12-05 06:53:06 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


We agree on that. When a hostile shows up, you don't fly around fat and dumb.

Just so we are clear here, you have agreed that a cloaked hostile in system does necessitate a defensive response to his presence....

An active, ongoing response.

Against an opponent who does not need to remain in anyway active, who is so secure while forcing that defensive response that debilitated the other uses the system might be pout to that he can go afk indefinitely.

If you can't see the problem there, then you are just deliberately blind.


You mean like making ISK? Gee, here we are again, back at this ISK/hour thing.

And 5+ guys in PvP fit ishtars are not going to be threatened by a single cloaked ship. Nor will they be bothered by several cloaked ships. The 5+ guys will likely spot a hostile much more frequently than a single player. You'll burn through anomalies very fast, maybe even faster than solo as you wont get distracted and sit in a finished anomaly for several minutes. Add on a 2-3 alts in shield logi and suddenly you have a very deadly ratting fleet that also doubles as a CAP fleet. So not only will you have reduced your risk, you may very well have actually achieved your ISK/hour or even beat it.

I am not deliberately blind, I am just willing to adapt to the situation.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3776 - 2015-12-05 07:05:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


We agree on that. When a hostile shows up, you don't fly around fat and dumb.

Just so we are clear here, you have agreed that a cloaked hostile in system does necessitate a defensive response to his presence....

An active, ongoing response.

Against an opponent who does not need to remain in anyway active, who is so secure while forcing that defensive response that debilitated the other uses the system might be pout to that he can go afk indefinitely.

If you can't see the problem there, then you are just deliberately blind.


You mean like making ISK? Gee, here we are again, back at this ISK/hour thing.

And 5+ guys in PvP fit ishtars are not going to be threatened by a single cloaked ship. Nor will they be bothered by several cloaked ships. The 5+ guys will likely spot a hostile much more frequently than a single player. You'll burn through anomalies very fast, maybe even faster than solo as you wont get distracted and sit in a finished anomaly for several minutes. Add on a 2-3 alts in shield logi and suddenly you have a very deadly ratting fleet that also doubles as a CAP fleet. So not only will you have reduced your risk, you may very well have actually achieved your ISK/hour or even beat it.

I am not deliberately blind, I am just willing to adapt to the situation.


You are the one who keeps returning to ISK.

Maybe I am just shy, xenophobic, or don't want people to see my secret dance moves. Why I want the space does not matter.

What does matter is that everything not inside a dock is supposed to be at risk, and that camper isn't. If someone is willing to fight for it, then fighting should be an option.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3777 - 2015-12-05 07:19:58 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


You are the one who keeps returning to ISK.

Maybe I am just shy, xenophobic, or don't want people to see my secret dance moves. Why I want the space does not matter.

What does matter is that everything not inside a dock is supposed to be at risk, and that camper isn't. If someone is willing to fight for it, then fighting should be an option.


No Mike, I'm just up front about the issue really boils down to ISK and resources. People hold sov for 2 reasons really, the resources it generates, and the content it can provide.

He is only not at risk when at a safe and cloaked....which also means he is can't do anything to maintain that level of risk. So, who cares?

Really, I wish you'd stop ascribing near magical powers to these pilots flying cloaked ships. From your perspective not only are they omnipotent, but also omniscient. They know precisely when to attack! The never ever fall for bait. Just that 1 guy can keep you from earning decent ISK no matter what you do. This one player is so powerful that he stops you dead in your tracks.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3778 - 2015-12-05 09:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
So, if it's all about content, and content=shooting people...

Why is it a problem if he comes under fire at a time he does not choose at some point?

Why should he choose when he is and is not at risk?

Why should my risk be determined at his whim, but the reverse cannot be true?

Everything you say about putting PvE at risk should apply to the hunter as well, or you are just playing favorites. Active play should trump passive play.

Because it isn't true that he isn't doing anything when he's at a safe and cloaked. He is projecting threat. You already admitted that you don't fly fat and dumb with a hostile present, which means you must respond to his presence. If he can force action on you, you should be able to force action on him. That isn't the case, and that is the source of the imbalance. You want to force action on another party, then they should be able to respond to you---not in general against the whole universe of what might happen--to you, in particular.

I'm willing to support changes that redress other imbalances, but to claim cloaks are balanced because of other problems that have other multiple, better solutions is just dogmatic and one sided for your own playstyle without consideration to anyone but yourself.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#3779 - 2015-12-05 11:14:25 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So, if it's all about content, and content=shooting people...

Why is it a problem if he comes under fire at a time he does not choose at some point?

Why should he choose when he is and is not at risk?

Why should my risk be determined at his whim, but the reverse cannot be true?

Everything you say about putting PvE at risk should apply to the hunter as well, or you are just playing favorites. Active play should trump passive play.

Because it isn't true that he isn't doing anything when he's at a safe and cloaked. He is projecting threat. You already admitted that you don't fly fat and dumb with a hostile present, which means you must respond to his presence. If he can force action on you, you should be able to force action on him. That isn't the case, and that is the source of the imbalance. You want to force action on another party, then they should be able to respond to you---not in general against the whole universe of what might happen--to you, in particular.

I'm willing to support changes that redress other imbalances, but to claim cloaks are balanced because of other problems that have other multiple, better solutions is just dogmatic and one sided for your own playstyle without consideration to anyone but yourself.



Yet what you are saying is that cloaks are horribly broken things that should be fixed ASAP because of a reason that only appears in one playstyle but not any other? You are willing to break working gameplay in other parts of eve to fix one problem in a specific part of circumstances. Cloaks are being used in all over New Eden, but somehow for the incredibly broken module they are, it's only an issue in sov-null? How is that possible that nobody is complaining about cloaks in any other part of eve?

"But cloaks and cyno's are OP" Yes, but if they were so goddamn OP, you'd have people from NPC-null or lowsec complaining about it

You do realize that the ability to fit a covert ops cloak already comes with a hefty price? Your ship is pre-nerfed for having that ability. You have worse stats than similar ships that don't have a cloak and you cannot do anything except watch when you are cloaked.

Wormholer for life.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3780 - 2015-12-05 11:42:02 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Jerghul wrote:

You don't have to buy it. I merely want Devs to examine data on player attrition in null sec systems targeted by enduring cloaky camps and draw their conclusions from that.



It's almost like he thinks that chasing people out of nullsec is not intentionally in the game.


He is actually saying much, much more. That not only are people being chased out of NS, but right out of the game by these monstrous AFK campers (I particularly find it amusing it is done with ventures....people, were so wimpy they abandoned their sov instead of trying to find a way to stick it out because of guys cloaked in ventures).

Edit: So wimpy, that not only do they abandon their sov to a bunch of guys AFK camping in ventures, they then quit the game while crying into their cheerios....maybe....maybe it is shame though. When they find out how bad they are at the game that they lost their space to a bunch of guys AFK camping them in ventures, they quit out of shame. Clearly we must do Something™ to protect these milquetoasts.


A red in local is a red in local Tackos. A cloaked venture is cost- and sp efficient.
Afk cloaky camping does not capture sov. It removes content in sov.
Giving increased attrition rates (People stop playing Eve).

So yah, enduring Cloak+Cyno potential is actually shamefully bad game design. Not anyone's fault. Devs throw things out there, player behaviour molds things tossed out. Devs intervene if things or combinations of things emerge as shamefully bad game design.

6-week release cycles are very elegant.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1