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Ship-mounted Tractor Beams vs. Mobile Tractor Units.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2015-01-08 03:55:25 UTC
I'm curious why the MTU doesn't have a proximity limit like cyno inhibitors. If their minimum distance from other MTU is their max range +10km (to account for wrecks stopping short), this wouldn't be an issue. That wormhole rescue mission I mentioned wouldn't be possible either.

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Esmanpir
Raccoon's with LightSabers
#22 - 2015-01-08 05:37:39 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Posting With Alt wrote:
Loot is one thing, but watching MTUs play frisbee with an empty wreck is another thing entirely.

I have no qualms with blowing up the MTU, but under the current suspect mechanics and how many of them you can come across at once it's simply an unreasonable expectation. Therefore make it so the attacker is only suspect flagged to the MTU's owner / fleet / corporation. Not everyone else in the area. I'd happily whittle down an abandoned MTU with my Noctis if it meant I'm not going to turn myself into a pinata for all those watching.

After a MTU grabs a wreck it's basically gone. MTUs are automated and as such have perfect activation of their tractor beams. What does this mean? If you miss the initial lock and grab it's going to be chain grabbed if there's a group of them set up. I've sat at a MTU pulling in a wreck waiting to snatch it with my own Tractor Beam after it was finished only to have it instantly tractored by another MTU with inhuman speed. The instant the first MTU deactivates its tractor beam a second MTU instantly activates its own. If nothing else this mechanic should be looked at as well.

And while I am not a suicide ganker myself I am adamantly against AFK playstyles in general. I should have dibs over someone who isn't in system or who isn't online. If they want to beat me they should have to be there at the keyboard manually targeting wrecks and salvaging them like I am.

Make no mistake, I'm not suggesting that somehow I can pull a can or wreck out of the grip of someone else using a ship-mounted Tractor Beam or suggesting I be able to tractor wrecks and cans I do not own. But, allowing someone to set and forget an object like that with the current suspect mechanics involved and the instant tractor activation is unreasonable. The fact I'm being inhibited in cleaning space of abandoned wrecks by other abandoned objects is unreasonable.

I have no issues with any of the other mechanics revolving around Tractor Beams and Salvagers, but this one single thing irks me to no end.

You are still overlooking the fundamental fact that if you and the MTU can both tractor the wreck...the wreck doesn't "belong" to you in the first place. You have no reasonable expectation of ownership, nor should you have any reasonable expectation of salvage rights. It's fair game for all, and if you don't bring better tools to loot it than the MTU, or aren't willing to shoot the MTU for the loot, well then that's your problem.

If you know in advance that you're competing against MTUs for abandoned wrecks, fly an appropriate ship. Or, shoot the MTU for a chance at the loot it's already taken.

Or, keep coming to the forums and whining and keep losing out on loot.

Your call.


I'm sorry, I don't see that he's whining. He's put forward a legitimate idea that may or may not have merit. It should be argued on the merit or lack thereof of the idea and it's impact in the game. Not whether there are current mechanics to get around it.

In his idea, he acknowledges that there are ways to "defeat" the current mechanic, but also counters with the argument that he's active at his keyboard and the MTU is at worst a form of AFK pilot. In his argument, if a pilot is on-grid, his specifically designed salvage ship should have superiority over the MTU when they both lock a can. I can see the validity of that. I don't see the validity of calling him a whiner.

He's not saying that he can't defeat the MTU using other means, faster ship, fly with friends and beat the MTU to the wrecks, get in a combat ship and blow up the MTUs, then fight everyone who attacks him because he's now suspect, etc.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-01-08 06:20:41 UTC
Posting With Alt wrote:


But, flying around in a Noctis what in the world would compel me to attack one of these (armed with 5 un-bonused light drones) when I instantly become a free meal to everyone in the area? Am I expected to fly all the way back to a station I have stuff in just to grab a combat ship, fly all the way back, blow up the Mobile Tractor Unit, hopefully don't get aggressed by everyone and their mother on the gate, then hop back into my salvaging ship, wait for my suspect timer to clear and FINALLY finish the job.



This is indeed what you should do.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-01-08 06:30:24 UTC
Posting With Alt wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:

If you know in advance that you're competing against MTUs for abandoned wrecks, fly an appropriate ship. Or, shoot the MTU for a chance at the loot it's already taken.


Here's where the problem lies.

I'm not after the loot in the wreck; I'm after the wreck itself. Heck, by the time I get there the loot is already scooped and gone. I want to salvage the debris and clean space. That's what a salvager does.

MTU gangs make this seemingly simple task arduous, time consuming and for what you get out of it simply not worth it. When multiple people throw up gangs of MTUs on a gate or something, they're going after loot in the wreck. They know full well they aren't going to come back to a big heap of wrecks all packed together when there's 5 other MTUs in the area. In fact by the time they come back the wrecks have probably all disappeared. They don't care about the remains of the wreck at all.

The problem I'm attempting to address is MTU ping pong and the effect it has on salvagers.

-Make MTUs 'shut off' a certain period of time after the owner leaves system.
-Make ship-mounted Tractor Beams be able to rip empty abandoned wrecks from MTU tractor beams.
-Make the attacker's suspect flag only visible when the MTU's owner is in system.
-Make MTUs emit some sort of "anti-MTU" sensor field that prevents MTUs from pulling wrecks from other MTUs.

I shouldn't have to lead the league in interceptions just to salvage a wreck while the MTU's owner is asleep, watching Netflix docked up in station, etc. or simply doesn't care about the salvage.

MTU ping pong is a menace and serves no actual purpose. The only way to stop it once it has started is to blow up all of the MTUs in the area, which takes forever (especially if white knights are abound). I've tried. Or much less time consuming option, but for what you get out of it still far too time consuming is to fit a MWD frigate and pretty much run the wrecks down or try to get in range with drones. With distances in excess of 50km, with multiple MTUs and factor in them all pulling different directions.... this also feels like it takes forever.


If you really just want the salvage send a salvage drone after it. No need to chase the wreck when the drone will simply follow it. Otherwise fit an mwd and keep at range whilst salvaging.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#25 - 2015-01-08 09:13:01 UTC
I would like a corporation MTU that get's a reinforced timer of two to four hours.

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Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2015-01-08 09:34:32 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I vote increase the default range on tractor beams and decrease the tractor speed of the MTU.


I would go more far than you the speed is one part i would also lower the max target range to 60 km, would exclude the looting function or give the same funktion also to the player tractor beams.

The MTU ist from the performance way better than the noctis the only thing which the noctis offers is that you can fit salvagers too and target multiple items. But by the fact that you can give the mtu some time and it will do the whole work by itself with a small percentage of skill and costs the mtu is way too strong.

+1 for every nerv of the mtu
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-01-08 10:06:08 UTC
MTU is fine. a field of 30 wrecks at an average of 30 KM wil take about 16.5 minutes for the MTU to clear, I can do that faster with salvage drones and simply flying to each wreck with loot and a noctis will clear that in very short time. MTU is a useful tool but in no way replaces the noctis. If you don't like other players MTU's blow them up.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#28 - 2015-01-08 13:41:23 UTC
+1 seems reasonable
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