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[Proteus] Reduction in Fighter and Fighter Bomber scan resolution

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2015-01-06 10:45:22 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
afkalt wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Yes, OP says they specifically are not aiming to fix the real issue, but instead blanket nerf all uses of fighters and fighter bombers.

Why not simply implement a relaunch timer on the same target in this imaginary situation/non-existing exploit, instead of slowing damage application in all legit uses of said drones?



You'd have to ask CCP. Maybe it's all they have as an option at this stage. Relaunch timers have potential problems too - affecting every single drone boat and making it hard to use drone pulling as a good way to stop people shooting them. Far more collateral damage with that approach.

I can understand it, you could get pretty huge gains out a FB wing with it. Fighters seem odder, be a lot harder to get meaningful gains with their cycle times.

I'm not sure delaying capital class DPS landing on field by up to a minute represents the end of the the world - after all drones start the locking process immediately so at ranges much of that will be eaten up by travel time. It's a relatively minor nerf, imo.



The whole fighter assist is fine imo - it's when it's combined with POS tanking it breaks the tradeoff/risk/reward paradigm.


No need to implement a relaunch timer for all drones, just for fighter bombers.

Fighters received a minor buff while ago, which was too weak to make them viable in PVP, and in turn made it almost possible to undock in Thanatos. This blanket nerf to fighters to fix a non-issue ensures that Thanatos still remains useless.



Well yes - but maybe it's just not possible.

I don't know Smile


I'm not disagreeing with you there are better ways to fix it in a perfect world, but it's an imperfect one.

STILL scratching my head on fighters though.
3Better
You're dunked
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#182 - 2015-01-06 11:10:11 UTC
I agree that problem with scoop\redeploy should be solved. But not the way CCP is gonna do. Solving it by nerfing fighters and FBs (where this nerf is waaaaaaaay more significant) scan resolution will just reduce the numbers of timer where a super may have been used and will add some problems with switching targets.
Making the general ROF timer which will not be reseting during the scoop\deploy procedure seems to me as the best option.
Anton Menges Saddat
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#183 - 2015-01-06 11:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Anton Menges Saddat
Angelique Duchemin wrote:


It will also add a delay between switching targets since the bomber now need around 14 seconds to lock a battleship and even as much as 30 seconds to lock smaller Cruisers.

So if a Super has say.... 2 hictors locked then switching from one to the other will have a bomber lock time of about 15 seconds even if the super itself already has both of them locked. This will also make the hictors see the drones yellow boxing them far in advance of the actual damage. Giving the Hictor team time to switch points and alert logi support.

Yup, and this is indeed the real reason for the change.... not some imaginary 'exploit' that doesn't even make sense
Ginger Heaven
Il Sindacato
Ligma Grindset
#184 - 2015-01-06 11:13:39 UTC
if this nerf comes, and some more in the direction super / carrier

all carrier pilots can feel like a titan pilot today...useless

don´t touch a running system, no one cares, go and spend the time in some other problems.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#185 - 2015-01-06 11:30:17 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
First!

Anything to make carriers less effective against subcaps is a good move IMO. Can you take away Carriers' sentry drones too, please?

Separate drone bays on Carriers and Super Carriers.

Small drone Bay for regular and sentry drones, and a large bomber and fighter bomber Bay...
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#186 - 2015-01-06 12:09:15 UTC
how about this: we rename carriers to something to do with remote repping, then remove the dronebay, and for supers I guess just remove fighters from the game and make them unable to lock subcaps.

obviously the ships themselves would need like 10 more nerfs not related to their dronebays for them to become balanced, since they are so stupid broken.
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#187 - 2015-01-06 12:10:36 UTC
This is the dumbest fix so far fuzzy.
Scoop drop only works if you are within 10km of your target, thus barely no one does it.
Maybe instead of doing this ridiculous change, you could simply fix it so that you cannot reset the 15second timer by scooping and redeploying?
Oh and Fuzzy if FB's have scan res around 100, it still fixes it, or they can have 30sec lock timer on carriers, which is how much in 5% tidi? xd

~lvl 60 paladin~
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#188 - 2015-01-06 13:08:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Hope you've all had a great holiday season. Most of us are back at the office now, and we're putting the final preparations in place for the Proteus release next week.

One of the tweaks we are making in Proteus is to the scan resolution of Fighters and Fighter Bombers, both of which are being reduced quite significantly.

The primary goal of this change is to ensure that rapidly scooping and relaunching fighters and fighter bombers never gives a dps advantage. This practice has not been widespread thus far, but any possible advantage gained this way would both provide imbalanced DPS and cause significant server load so we want to nip it in the bud.

The changes will also have the effect of delaying the initial alpha strike of fighters and fighter bombers, especially against subcaps. Although it is not the primary purpose of the change we are not displeased by this effect, and we do not believe that it will make fighters or fighter bombers underpowered.

I know that some people who are hoping for a major nerf to assigned fighters will be unhappy that this change will only have a small-moderate effect on that activity. We have been keeping a close eye on the way fighters are used ever since our recent rounds of drone rebalancing and we aren't ruling out any potential future changes at this time. However we are not going to rush into any larger changes to fighter mechanics.

The new numbers are:
Type - Old Scan Res – New Scan Res
Dragonfly - 200 - 100
Einherji - 350 - 175
Firbolg - 250 - 125
Templar - 300 - 150
Cyclops – 250 - 27
Malleus - 300 - 29
Mantis - 200 - 25
Shadow – 225 - 30
Tyrfing - 350 - 31

Thanks everyone, and happy New Year!


CCP Fozzie
You Should make drones and all drones, FB, Fighters have to fly back to ship to refuel there ammo or even fuel
drones in eve are bit false fire with unlimited ammo and fuel,

make them use the ammo for each type of drone or fuel

look in to it CCP Fozzie
Maddaxe Illat
Kerberos Inc.
#189 - 2015-01-06 13:09:44 UTC
all this change dose is say if your been play this game for more then 4 year we dont care about you and more is you dont want people to play eve anymore just shut it down
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
#190 - 2015-01-06 13:30:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Dustpuppy
TrouserDeagle wrote:
how about this: we rename carriers to something to do with remote repping, then remove the dronebay, and for supers I guess just remove fighters from the game and make them unable to lock subcaps.


That's what I thought when I saw the first response "and now remove sentries from carriers". What would be the role after such a change then? Cannon fodder for supercaps, flying rep machines for POS fixing? "The little brother ORE hates" because it would be a nice hauler for traders if the cargo bay wouldn't be too small to compete with the Orca?

Carriers are in the same range of skill requirements / price of faction battleships and no one would think about removing sentries from a rattlesnake. But why not? A rattle still has cruise missiles left for fighting adequate enemies and that's enough.

In case everyone is free to ask for a nerf of the system he doesn't like: nerf Astero. Too many newbies out there in null doing explorations. It's like the gold rush - every green horn with some hundred thousand skill points is now trying to earn easy billions which is unfair for all those who spent months on training their BS to run incursions.
Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
#191 - 2015-01-06 14:00:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dustpuppy
Cr Turist wrote:
OK i am a little lost. [...] and carriers with sentrys are still overpowered.


I am pretty sure you never have flown a sentry carrier then. A regular battleship moves around and doesn't have to stay in the same place so it can fly to a save spot in short time when things go south and a nice pirate group tries to get a nice kill mail.

The Ishtars defense is speed - just circle around the sentries with AB running and you can tank 20 BS without problems. In case the nice pirates appear it doesn't matter because the ship aligns very fast and is harder to find using probes than a BS. Additionally it has a decent targeting speed making it easy to pop the nasty little frigs which like to web/scramble you.

Tengu and the other T3 put out a lot of damage, don't have to sit around for shooting and are also flexible when it comes to evacuation.

A sentry carrier now is a sitting duck. it puts out a lot of damage which is nice but you have to stay near the sentries if you do't want to loose a batch of them every time someone visits your system. if you don't watch local all the time you might miss the few seconds which are given to gain speed and GTFO before someone comes to collect a capital killmail. These are enough negative aspects to outweigh the dps especially when compared to other ships used in PVE (like BS, Marauders, T3 or HACs).

If you now drop the sentries from carriers there is nothing left worth calling it a "carrier", or do you think the pilots should then switch to heavy drones (before they are also forbidden) and last but not least try to hide themselves in clouds of small drones so no one sees them when being used and it's all what is left to be used on this type of ship?

To the guy who asks for "reloading" "refueling" drones: think twice before posting. Drones have the advantage of not using amo in battle but the disadvantage of staying at the same place (sentries) or loosing dps because they have to fly to the target first plus being the only weapon system you can loose during a battle. Nothing regular guns have to deal, so this is balanced.
Soridar Ravencroft
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2015-01-06 14:05:27 UTC
This is honestly the most ill conceived idea I have ever heard of to fix an issue. You are planning to change one mechanic that in the end only partially effects the issue you are describing. Here is a solution for the issue, have a redeployment delay on drones. They have to cycle back from the receiving bay to the launch bay. In the time of 30 sec from reading the reason for the change I figured a solution the directly solves the issue, and at the same time does not hamper the actual effectiveness of the fighters or bombers as they are intended.

Oh and this also means that it stops this same thing for all other drones like the ECM example.

Lets stop fixing the toilet, to drain the sink. Cause that is how you guys in CCP have been "fixing things" as of late. Address the actual issues, then tweak everything else once you have solid base mechanics.
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#193 - 2015-01-06 14:19:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander McKeon
Anton Menges Saddat wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:


It will also add a delay between switching targets since the bomber now need around 14 seconds to lock a battleship and even as much as 30 seconds to lock smaller Cruisers.

So if a Super has say.... 2 hictors locked then switching from one to the other will have a bomber lock time of about 15 seconds even if the super itself already has both of them locked. This will also make the hictors see the drones yellow boxing them far in advance of the actual damage. Giving the Hictor team time to switch points and alert logi support.

Yup, and this is indeed the real reason for the change.... not some imaginary 'exploit' that doesn't even make sense
In what mad universe do you live? Anyone who's actually attempted to use fighter-bombers against HiCs would appreciate what an utterly senseless idea that would be; even when webbed & heavily painted, bombers apply a tiny fraction of the DPS which fighters can against subcaps, even battleships! Clearly you've never flown a super before in a combat situation; fighters will still have sufficient scan-res to be useful against subcaps (Einherji master race?) and all this does is make target-swapping between hostile capitals slower. You could have double the planned scan resolution and still achieve your goal of stopping any alleged (and completely impractical) scoop & deploy tricks to amplify DPS.

Competent super pilots don't use bombers vs. subcaps, your argument is invalid.
Malou Hashur
Enterprise Holdings
#194 - 2015-01-06 14:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Malou Hashur
FOZZIE....

Please explain why you are so clueless. Anyone with half an eye can see that your solution is so badly thought out its frightening.

As you clearly have no idea, the two quotes below explain why...


Anton Menges Saddat wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:


It will also add a delay between switching targets since the bomber now need around 14 seconds to lock a battleship and even as much as 30 seconds to lock smaller Cruisers.

So if a Super has say.... 2 hictors locked then switching from one to the other will have a bomber lock time of about 15 seconds even if the super itself already has both of them locked. This will also make the hictors see the drones yellow boxing them far in advance of the actual damage. Giving the Hictor team time to switch points and alert logi support.

Yup, and this is indeed the real reason for the change.... not some imaginary 'exploit' that doesn't even make sense



Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
This is the dumbest fix so far fuzzy.
Scoop drop only works if you are within 10km of your target, thus barely no one does it.
Maybe instead of doing this ridiculous change, you could simply fix it so that you cannot reset the 15second timer by scooping and redeploying?




FFS, it really, really isn’t that hard, just introduce a re-deployment timer.

CCP Philosophy ==>>

  1. If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it and break something else.

  2. Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
dexter xio
Dead Game.
#195 - 2015-01-06 14:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: dexter xio
fozzie pls Cry y u do dis

pls no nerf my nyx ((

was this fexons fault fozzie? I bet it was

Dead Game.
Aineko Macx
#196 - 2015-01-06 14:37:43 UTC
Fixing that drone DPS exploit is correct of course, but there's really no need to nerf supers further. In fact, since you took care of power projection, I was expecting some of the previous nerfs to supers and titans be undone which were originally implemented as bandaid to power projection. But :CCP:

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Jennice Illat
Kerberos Inc.
#197 - 2015-01-06 14:41:57 UTC
with the nerf to jumping and now this I realy dont feel like play this game any more and I only have 17 accunt at lest CCP are doing there job at not want the older play to play any more
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#198 - 2015-01-06 14:47:20 UTC
Fighters are strong but applying dmg + tracking + mobility modules makes them far too overpowered. When you have 4 carriers + a nyx they will decimate a 40man ishtar gang. It doesn't matter how much logi you bring it's almost equivalent to the old ways of titans leaving the pos shields then doomsdaying some poor soul that happened to be the guy they locked first.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#199 - 2015-01-06 14:54:56 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:

Clearly you've never flown a super before in a combat situation; fighters will still have sufficient scan-res to be useful against subcaps (Einherji master race?) and all this does is make target-swapping between hostile capitals slower.


It will take approx 10 seconds for fighters to lock a cruiser, which in practice means one less volley fired in the same time compared to old stats.

Or in even more practical terms, this means about 20% less fighter damage applied in 30 seconds of combat.
saranhealer
Geordie Boys on Tour
GEORDIE BOYS
#200 - 2015-01-06 15:10:44 UTC
Suede wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Hope you've all had a great holiday season. Most of us are back at the office now, and we're putting the final preparations in place for the Proteus release next week.

One of the tweaks we are making in Proteus is to the scan resolution of Fighters and Fighter Bombers, both of which are being reduced quite significantly.

The primary goal of this change is to ensure that rapidly scooping and relaunching fighters and fighter bombers never gives a dps advantage. This practice has not been widespread thus far, but any possible advantage gained this way would both provide imbalanced DPS and cause significant server load so we want to nip it in the bud.

The changes will also have the effect of delaying the initial alpha strike of fighters and fighter bombers, especially against subcaps. Although it is not the primary purpose of the change we are not displeased by this effect, and we do not believe that it will make fighters or fighter bombers underpowered.

I know that some people who are hoping for a major nerf to assigned fighters will be unhappy that this change will only have a small-moderate effect on that activity. We have been keeping a close eye on the way fighters are used ever since our recent rounds of drone rebalancing and we aren't ruling out any potential future changes at this time. However we are not going to rush into any larger changes to fighter mechanics.

The new numbers are:
Type - Old Scan Res – New Scan Res
Dragonfly - 200 - 100
Einherji - 350 - 175
Firbolg - 250 - 125


Templar - 300 - 150
Cyclops – 250 - 27
Malleus - 300 - 29
Mantis - 200 - 25
Shadow – 225 - 30
Tyrfing - 350 - 31

Thanks everyone, and happy New Year!


CCP Fozzie
You Should make drones and all drones, FB, Fighters have to fly back to ship to refuel there ammo or even fuel
drones in eve are bit false fire with unlimited ammo and fuel,

make them use the ammo for each type of drone or fuel

look in to it CCP Fozzie






Nice idea Suede do like very much