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C5/6 solo dread.... is it a thing?
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#41 - 2015-01-02 01:34:46 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:

I played around a bit with EFT damage graphs.

A bhaalgorn with a 10MN AB and a meta overdrive (gets it to the 400 sig res, 175m/s speed) makes a useful target.

It looks like 3 faction TPs and 2 TCs is better than 3 TCs and 2 faction TPs, and leaves a moros still applying ~3000dps to the guardians once they get into orbit.

Still not ideal, obviously, but worth knowing.


Good to know, I only had 2x TP with me at the time.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#42 - 2015-01-02 03:46:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Bhane Celesto wrote:

This is all theoretical, I don't do solo escalations.

3 fleet painters, 2 t2 tracking comps with tracking scripts against a bhaal with 400 sig at just shy of 175m/s perfect orbit results in 927 sig radius on the bhaal and this dps graph. ~7500 dps applied. Better hope you killed 4/5 of the 8 guardians before hitting orbit range, cause your tank/cap is crap with this fit, but it's doable.

Looking at your graph, I think you double-applied the painters. In EFT, it will automatically apply painters from the "attacker" ship to the "target" ship, and if you manually add those painters to the "projected effects" section of the Bhaalgorn fit, you end up "double-counting" the painters and acting as if 6 TPs are applied. At least, that's the only way I could get close to your ~7500dps before resists number, unless you did something else weird with the fit?

With just the 3 TPs and 2 TCs, with 4x fed navy magstabs and 3x tank in the lows, I get ~3000dps before accounting for resists.
Tiger Tesla
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-01-02 07:26:17 UTC
Not only is it viable, but it is the single fastest solo form of isk making in the game (ignoring trading and scamming). You can do the sites one after another easily, and if you have access to a carrier you can do both escallations (12 guardians) in one siege cycle.

I experimented with it for a while and it definitely seemed "easy". Simply by risking billions of isk, and only splitting isk 1 way, you can make 1 billion isk per hour pretty reasonably. Obviously doesn't count hole closing times among other things.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#44 - 2015-01-02 16:43:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Chris Winter wrote:

With just the 3 TPs and 2 TCs, with 4x fed navy magstabs and 3x tank in the lows, I get ~3000dps before accounting for resists.


Its approx 3K dps (not sure exactly what) with 3x TC, 2x faction TP + painting bonus from ganglinks. Could look it up in EFT but its close enough - definitely not hitting them for 7+K dps with that kind of setup. (My dread char also has tracking/damage implants which help a bit) With some good quality hits you can kill a guardian at about a minute each.
Bhane Celesto
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2015-01-02 23:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bhane Celesto
Tiger Tesla wrote:
Not only is it viable, but it is the single fastest solo form of isk making in the game (ignoring trading and scamming). You can do the sites one after another easily, and if you have access to a carrier you can do both escallations (12 guardians) in one siege cycle.

I experimented with it for a while and it definitely seemed "easy". Simply by risking billions of isk, and only splitting isk 1 way, you can make 1 billion isk per hour pretty reasonably. Obviously doesn't count hole closing times among other things.


If you're only after escalations then sure, it's probably ideal. A solo carrier can do the escalation wave then clear off the rest of the site, ends up between 270 and 370m per site. If you're truly solo, IE, in a hole alone, a carrier is probably the better option.

Chris Winter wrote:
Bhane Celesto wrote:

This is all theoretical, I don't do solo escalations.

3 fleet painters, 2 t2 tracking comps with tracking scripts against a bhaal with 400 sig at just shy of 175m/s perfect orbit results in 927 sig radius on the bhaal and this dps graph. ~7500 dps applied. Better hope you killed 4/5 of the 8 guardians before hitting orbit range, cause your tank/cap is crap with this fit, but it's doable.

Looking at your graph, I think you double-applied the painters. In EFT, it will automatically apply painters from the "attacker" ship to the "target" ship, and if you manually add those painters to the "projected effects" section of the Bhaalgorn fit, you end up "double-counting" the painters and acting as if 6 TPs are applied. At least, that's the only way I could get close to your ~7500dps before resists number, unless you did something else weird with the fit?

With just the 3 TPs and 2 TCs, with 4x fed navy magstabs and 3x tank in the lows, I get ~3000dps before accounting for resists.


Didn't know EFT did this, but you're right, I added the painters in projected effects. If I don't do that it drops to 3200 before resists. Assuming a 60/40 kin/therm split I'm not convinced it's worth staying if they reach orbit. 480 kin 320 therm, for a total of 800 applied dps. They have something like 200k ehp in armor, it's going to take a ******* age to kill multiple orbiting guardians. If 1 or 2 reach orbit, fine. If more do? Forget it.

Edit - More EFT warrioring, if we're working on the assumption that most guardians die before reaching 35km and that you don't really need much tank/cap for the few that reach orbit, then you can ditch some cap mods, add faction tracking comps/enhancer and reach about 4500.
Valaeris type-zero
United Mining and Hauling Inc
The Initiative.
#46 - 2015-01-03 01:24:08 UTC
oh my, you are all so sweet to give me all these tips and tricks of the trade, thank you, may Bob bless you!
Paul Vashar
CTHS
#47 - 2015-01-03 04:22:47 UTC
Valaeris type-zero wrote:
oh my, you are all so sweet to give me all these tips and tricks of the trade, thank you, may Bob bless you!

All Hail BOB!
Bhane Celesto
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-01-05 00:30:27 UTC
Valaeris type-zero wrote:
oh my, you are all so sweet to give me all these tips and tricks of the trade, thank you, may Bob bless you!


it's only so we can gank your dreadnaught Twisted
Valaeris type-zero
United Mining and Hauling Inc
The Initiative.
#49 - 2015-01-05 01:24:05 UTC
Bhane Celesto wrote:
Valaeris type-zero wrote:
oh my, you are all so sweet to give me all these tips and tricks of the trade, thank you, may Bob bless you!


it's only so we can gank your dreadnaught Twisted



how do you know this isnt a scheme to bait you into my moros and counter-gank you darling?
Paul Vashar
CTHS
#50 - 2015-01-05 17:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Vashar
Valaeris type-zero wrote:
Bhane Celesto wrote:
Valaeris type-zero wrote:
oh my, you are all so sweet to give me all these tips and tricks of the trade, thank you, may Bob bless you!


it's only so we can gank your dreadnaught Twisted



how do you know this isnt a scheme to bait you into my moros and counter-gank you darling?

Gonna need a bit more than that for Bhane, he has friends.
Edit: However, additional sacrifices are always enjoyed.
Brown Pathfinder
Black Spot on Parchment
#51 - 2015-01-08 14:02:06 UTC
can a phoenix work in a black hole? armor or shield fit?
Peter Moonlight
Suddenly Carebears
#52 - 2015-01-08 14:34:46 UTC
Brown Pathfinder wrote:
can a phoenix work in a black hole? armor or shield fit?

Pretty sure it can, I know a person who did C6 in a Phoenix, shield fit.
Jonnie Concrete
You're Doing It Wrong
#53 - 2015-01-08 14:54:26 UTC
I tried a Phoenix in a C5 black hole once....yeh......it died.

I was drunk though and poorly skilled.

Might be possible!...
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#54 - 2015-01-08 20:13:13 UTC
Brown Pathfinder wrote:
can a phoenix work in a black hole? armor or shield fit?

After more fooling around in EFT, a truly solo phoenix in a C6 black hole with the appropriate implants should be able to finish 6 sleepless guardians within a single siege cycle. In a C5, you might just barely make it within one siege cycle if you refit your sebos to painters after locking all of the guardians.

If you're not quite solo and have info boosts available to make the painters awesome, you'd easily be able to finish within a siege cycle.

The main benefit of the Phoenix, I'd think, is that you won't need to make bookmarks before running the site--you can just warp in and get started. If you can't do the site in just one siege cycle, though, that's not really worth it.

Anyway, BRB, training for a phoenix.
Bhane Celesto
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2015-01-08 22:45:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bhane Celesto
Scrap all this, applied dps of a phoenix against orbiting guardians is so low it's not worth it.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#56 - 2015-01-09 15:47:29 UTC
Jonnie Concrete wrote:
I tried a Phoenix in a C5 black hole once....yeh......it died.

I was drunk though and poorly skilled.

Might be possible!...

Might be possible now that that BH Effects were changed. No idea though as I don't fly a Phoenix

I'm right behind you
Bhane Celesto
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2015-01-09 15:58:07 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Jonnie Concrete wrote:
I tried a Phoenix in a C5 black hole once....yeh......it died.

I was drunk though and poorly skilled.

Might be possible!...

Might be possible now that that BH Effects were changed. No idea though as I don't fly a Phoenix


It's not. Trust me. Open EFT and play around with the dps graph. Applied dps is <1000, about a third of a Moros' applied dps if guardians reach orbit. A 14k dps moros can take out 8 guardians before they orbit, a 10k phoenix probably can't. It's just a bad idea all around.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#58 - 2015-01-09 17:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Bhane Celesto wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Jonnie Concrete wrote:
I tried a Phoenix in a C5 black hole once....yeh......it died.

I was drunk though and poorly skilled.

Might be possible!...

Might be possible now that that BH Effects were changed. No idea though as I don't fly a Phoenix


It's not. Trust me. Open EFT and play around with the dps graph. Applied dps is <1000, about a third of a Moros' applied dps if guardians reach orbit. A 14k dps moros can take out 8 guardians before they orbit, a 10k phoenix probably can't. It's just a bad idea all around.

A) What phoenix fit are you using? With EFT, in a BH C5 or C6 I'm able to get 6-7k DPS before resists against the guardians, solo. Relevant modules are 2x T2 Rigor rigs, 1x T2 Flare rig, 4x CN BCUs, 3x RF TPs, and the meta torp launchers with guristas scourge.
B) Missile "tracking" works differently than turret tracking-- it doesn't matter if the guardians get into orbit or not. A phoenix will do the same damage to the guardians while they're slowboating away as when they're in orbit, since total velocity is what matters for missile application, not angular velocity like with turrets.

WTB T2 dread weapons and precision missiles for the phoenix...

(edited to sound less rude)
Yaliz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2015-01-09 20:14:05 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:

A) What phoenix fit are you using? In a BH C5 or C6 I'm able to get 6-7k DPS before resists against the guardians, solo. Relevant modules are 2x T2 Rigor rigs, 1x T2 Flare rig, 4x CN BCUs, 3x RF TPs, and the meta torp launchers with guristas scourge.
B) Missile "tracking" works differently than turret tracking-- it doesn't matter if the guardians get into orbit or not. A phoenix will do the same damage to the guardians while they're slowboating away as when they're in orbit, since total velocity is what matters for missile application, not angular velocity like with turrets.

WTB T2 dread weapons and precision missiles for the phoenix...

(edited to sound less rude)


Are you able to kill the sleepers in 1 round of siege?
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#60 - 2015-01-09 20:44:47 UTC
Yaliz wrote:

Are you able to kill the sleepers in 1 round of siege?

I haven't actually tried this, just EFT-warriored it a bit. Clarified that in my previous post.

From before that:
Chris Winter wrote:
After more fooling around in EFT, a truly solo phoenix in a C6 black hole with the appropriate implants should be able to finish 6 sleepless guardians within a single siege cycle. In a C5, you might just barely make it within one siege cycle if you refit your sebos to painters after locking all of the guardians.

If you're not quite solo and have info boosts available to make the painters awesome, you'd easily be able to finish within a siege cycle.

The main benefit of the Phoenix, I'd think, is that you won't need to make bookmarks before running the site--you can just warp in and get started. If you can't do the site in just one siege cycle, though, that's not really worth it.


TL;DR version:
With info boosts you should easily be able to finish within a siege cycle. Without boosts, it should just barely be possible with perfect skills and implants, but I can't really guarantee that without having tried it. I wish there was an easier way to get into WHs on sisi...