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Mechanics to Encourage Fights

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Author
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#41 - 2014-12-27 04:18:46 UTC
James Zimmer wrote:
and CCP even put this entire section of the forum online to hear what players want to see changed in the game.

Sometimes one really doubts such a claim.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#42 - 2014-12-27 04:27:34 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
James Zimmer wrote:
and CCP even put this entire section of the forum online to hear what players want to see changed in the game.

Sometimes one really doubts such a claim.


It's so that all the ideas are in one place so they can be more easily ignored.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ratchet Conway
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-12-27 11:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ratchet Conway
Anhenka wrote:
James Zimmer wrote:
A little background: I had just purchased and fit a Tornado and was flying it into low when I ran into a Ishtar waiting on the gate for me. Realizing instantly that an Ishtar, especially at zero, would make short work of my Tornado, I did the MWD/cloak trick and warped off.

I'm not asking to turn EVE into a bunch of jousting matches, where everything is fair and even, but maybe both offense and defense need to be weakened some, so there is more grey area for fights to occur. Maybe that Ishtar should be able to force an engagement on my Tornado, and maybe that shouldn't be an automatic death sentence for me.



A: You doubled up on the bad choices by jump in in unscouted into lowsec, and doing it in a long range ship with little close range support. You did redeem yourself a bit by successfully doing the MWD trick and getting out, but two wrongs and a right still mean you made two bad decisions.

B: We are not re-balancing the entire game, system for warp scrambling, mod attributes, ship capabilities, and downsides of mods because you think that it will magically turn EVE into a land where an Arty Nado has a chance against an aggression Ishtar at close range.



Unsure why having an alt account to 2 box is a requirement for gameplay. I hear this everywhere, while it provides an advantage, the assumption that it's required should be removed from discussion and is not helpful. Perhaps-- we nerf trial accounts further so that at least the person 2 boxing a loggie/scout is paying (or plexing.. which is the same thing to CCP)

At least they finally fixed the multicast problem. -- which was also a requirement for incursions for a long time.

to the original topic... -- this game is about having the high ground, sometimes you have it, sometimes you don't. While I agree scrams should cost more CAP... (cap stable warp scram is OP) -- this really won't change these types of encounters. You'll still assess whether you have the high ground or not and act accordingly.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2014-12-27 16:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Ratchet Conway wrote:

Unsure why having an alt account to 2 box is a requirement for gameplay. I hear this everywhere, while it provides an advantage, the assumption that it's required should be removed from discussion and is not helpful. Perhaps-- we nerf trial accounts further so that at least the person 2 boxing a loggie/scout is paying (or plexing.. which is the same thing to CCP)

At least they finally fixed the multicast problem. -- which was also a requirement for incursions for a long time.

to the original topic... -- this game is about having the high ground, sometimes you have it, sometimes you don't. While I agree scrams should cost more CAP... (cap stable warp scram is OP) -- this really won't change these types of encounters. You'll still assess whether you have the high ground or not and act accordingly.


You already can't have a both a trial account and a paying account logged at the same time. Nor can you have two trial accounts logged in at the same time. And have not been able to since at least when I started in late 2008.

And having alts is not required, it is extremely helpful. There's really no way to overstate the massive advantage that being in two places at the same time gives. And nothing CCP can do short of banning players from having two accounts open at the same time can make it any less of a massive advantage.

But in lieu of having an alt, friends work.


And I am curious to find out why you think that being able to permarun scrams are OP? Are you complaining about their use on frigates? Cruisers? BS's?

In order to prevent people from permarunning a disruptor are we massively increasing the cap requirements, then adding a scaling penalty to larger ships so it requires massively more cap the larger the ship gets? Should cruisers and BS's run out of cap when just using a scram? Are we forbidding peope from fitting cap batteries or cap injectors on their ships now to prevent them from keeping an influx of cap coming in?

Asymmetrical combat has always been an important part of the EVE balance. Small ships are fast, nimble, and able to hold down a larger target if the other ship has no countermeasures to deal with tiny ships.

Changing the game so that you can only run a disruptor for a very short amount of time would result in massive nerfs for solo players, as well as all weapon system that require capacitor, and all ships that use active tanking in PvP. Just wondering why you think this is necessary and why being able to get away from any solo attacker in short order would have a good effect on the game.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2014-12-27 17:38:56 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
And I am curious to find out why you think that being able to permarun scrams are OP?

I kinda second this question. I always though of this mech as of EVE's "PvP flag" of sorts that says "you are in combat, you cannot go into travel mode". Like in many other adventure/RPGs/MMOs, except with some background justification and gameplay elements directly related to it.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#46 - 2014-12-27 18:47:12 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
And I am curious to find out why you think that being able to permarun scrams are OP?

I kinda second this question. I always though of this mech as of EVE's "PvP flag" of sorts that says "you are in combat, you cannot go into travel mode". Like in many other adventure/RPGs/MMOs, except with some background justification and gameplay elements directly related to it.


I think this is about the time where someone should link this: Show us on the ship doll where the bad Rifter touched you.

Most of Eve combat revolves around keeping someone from being able to run away, get rid of that ability and you get rid of most PVP.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ratchet Conway
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-12-27 20:12:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ratchet Conway
FT Diomedes wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
And I am curious to find out why you think that being able to permarun scrams are OP?

I kinda second this question. I always though of this mech as of EVE's "PvP flag" of sorts that says "you are in combat, you cannot go into travel mode". Like in many other adventure/RPGs/MMOs, except with some background justification and gameplay elements directly related to it.


I think this is about the time where someone should link this: Show us on the ship doll where the bad Rifter touched you.

Most of Eve combat revolves around keeping someone from being able to run away, get rid of that ability and you get rid of most PVP.



I'll answer all.. Holding someone down is fine, but there should be a limit to it. Currently, you could technically (and I've seen it done) pin someone down for hours. You don't even have to attack, you just hold them there. While this is fun, it is really trolling to an extreme. -- There needs to be some limit, to what can be done by a single ship, if you need to hold a BS down for longer than 10 minutes-- then you should probably get a friend.

That's all I'm saying. --this doesn't end PvP combat-- it ends trolling.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-12-27 20:17:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Ratchet Conway wrote:

I'll answer all.. Holding someone down is fine, but there should be a limit to it. Currently, you could technically (and I've seen it done) pin someone down for hours. You don't even have to attack, you just hold them there. While this is fun, it is really trolling to an extreme. -- There needs to be some limit, to what can be done by a single ship, if you need to hold a BS down for longer than 10 minutes-- then you should probably get a friend.

That's all I'm saying. --this doesn't end PvP combat-- it ends trolling.


If you can run a mod for 10 minutes on a frig, you can run it forever with any slight increase in cap regen.

And remember, someone caught ALWAYS has away out. If you are caught and have no chance of escape, eject. Or self destruct.

The only person allowing you to be held down for 10+ minutes is yourself.

P.S: When I lived in WH space, it was not uncommon for someone roaming in k-space to catch a target and then pin him down for 10+ minutes with an interceptor while we assembled a flee and burned to him. If the target is so bad they can't kill a ceptor, and has no friends willing to come save him, I see no reason why he should escape just because it takes us a while to get there.
Ratchet Conway
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-12-27 20:30:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ratchet Conway
Anhenka wrote:
Ratchet Conway wrote:

I'll answer all.. Holding someone down is fine, but there should be a limit to it. Currently, you could technically (and I've seen it done) pin someone down for hours. You don't even have to attack, you just hold them there. While this is fun, it is really trolling to an extreme. -- There needs to be some limit, to what can be done by a single ship, if you need to hold a BS down for longer than 10 minutes-- then you should probably get a friend.

That's all I'm saying. --this doesn't end PvP combat-- it ends trolling.


If you can run a mod for 10 minutes on a frig, you can run it forever with any slight increase in cap regen.

And remember, someone caught ALWAYS has away out. If you are caught and have no chance of escape, eject. Or self destruct.

The only person allowing you to be held down for 10+ minutes is yourself.

P.S: When I lived in WH space, it was not uncommon for someone roaming in k-space to catch a target and then pin him down for 10+ minutes with an interceptor while we assembled a flee and burned to him. If the target is so bad they can't kill a ceptor, and has no friends willing to come save him, I see no reason why he should escape just because it takes us a while to get there.


Specialization is fine... if you want to create a frigate that can do this then it should take more than a single mod. Buff your recharge rate to compensate or use cap boosters to extend the 10 minutes. (which means you give up the medium shield extender or the web)

Just because it is common doesn't mean it's interesting game play. -- Also, if it takes you longer than 10 minutes to get help, then you're not already running roaming ops as was originally stated as the problem with this suggestion.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-12-27 21:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Ratchet Conway wrote:


Specialization is fine... if you want to create a frigate that can do this then it should take more than a single mod. Buff your recharge rate to compensate or use cap boosters to extend the 10 minutes. (which means you give up the medium shield extender or the web)

Just because it is common doesn't mean it's interesting game play. -- Also, if it takes you longer than 10 minutes to get help, then you're not already running roaming ops as was originally stated as the problem with this suggestion.


How does making it impossible for a frigate to point and hold something make the game more interesting?

Many many eve stories and fights have started with someone tackling something and then people on both sides piling in.

I once helped killed a pair of supercarriers because someone tackled a cruiser while in an interceptor, then an Abaddon came in to help the cruiser, then a few Ishtars came in to help the interceptor kill the Abaddon, then a carrier came to save the Abbadon, then in came a group of Talosi to kill the carrier, so they warped in more several carriers, so we brought in more Ishtars, and they warped a pair of supercarriers.

Then their allies were called, and our allies were called, but ours showed up first, so both of the supers self destructed to prevent BL from getting on the KM.

And you know how it all started?

A frig tackled a cruiser, and wouldn't let it go.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2014-12-27 21:09:04 UTC
Anhenka wrote:


How does making it impossible for a frigate to point and hold something make the game more interesting?

Many many eve stories and fights have started with someone tackling something and then people on both sides piling in.

I once helped killed a pair of supercarriers because someone tackled a cruiser while in an interceptor, then an Abaddon came in to help the cruiser, then a few Ishtars came in to help the interceptor kill the Abaddon, then a carrier came to save the Abbadon, then in came a group of Talosi to kill the carrier, so they warped in more several carriers, so we brought in more Ishtars, and they warped a pair of supercarriers.

Then their allies were called, and our allies were called, but ours showed up first, so both of the supers self destructed to prevent BL from getting on the KM.

And you know how it all started?

A frig tackled a cruiser, and wouldn't let it go.



EVE in a nutshell. If a proposal makes it impossible for this situation to happen again, it is a bad idea and you are a bad person for posting it.
Ratchet Conway
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-12-27 21:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ratchet Conway
Anhenka wrote:
Ratchet Conway wrote:


Specialization is fine... if you want to create a frigate that can do this then it should take more than a single mod. Buff your recharge rate to compensate or use cap boosters to extend the 10 minutes. (which means you give up the medium shield extender or the web)

Just because it is common doesn't mean it's interesting game play. -- Also, if it takes you longer than 10 minutes to get help, then you're not already running roaming ops as was originally stated as the problem with this suggestion.


How does making it impossible for a frigate to point and hold something make the game more interesting?

Many many eve stories and fights have started with someone tackling something and then people on both sides piling in.

I once helped killed a pair of supercarriers because someone tackled a cruiser while in an interceptor, then an Abaddon came in to help the cruiser, then a few Ishtars came in to help the interceptor kill the Abaddon, then a carrier came to save the Abbadon, then in came a group of Talosi to kill the carrier, so they warped in more several carriers, so we brought in more Ishtars, and they warped a pair of supercarriers.

Then their allies were called, and our allies were called, but ours showed up first, so both of the supers self destructed to prevent BL from getting on the KM.

And you know how it all started?

A frig tackled a cruiser, and wouldn't let it go.


trolling to the extreme I see.... did you even read the comment you quoted. --it says.. specialization is fine.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#53 - 2014-12-27 21:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
i dnt see a problem with holding a ship for hours (roaming or not roaming) if the tackled player is willing to sit there for hours and not self destruct. The tackled player is not a prisoner. Only his ship (or pod) is.

It becomes a race about back-up (which is certainly interesting game play, even beyond ten minutes, even beyond an hour) or a battle of will power and boredom between the tackler and tackled.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-12-27 22:18:24 UTC
Ratchet Conway wrote:


trolling to the extreme I see.... did you even read the comment you quoted. --it says.. specialization is fine.


You would seem to think that only a very few ships should be able to keep a scram running and they would have to sacrifice all or most of their other capabilities to do so.

If it's fast enough to not die or heavily armed enough, or heavy enough defenses, or packs enough ewar not to die while tackling, that's sufficient specialization to be a tackler.

Ever tackle a target in say... a Crucifier? It's a t1 ewar frigate. It's also a phenomenal tackler against a ship that uses guns as the main weapon system since it can TD a gunship to the point where it won't hit for ****.

Or a harpy, that MASB scourge of frigates, which can tackle a target then trolltank long enough for allies to show up. It's an AF, and an excellent tackler.

Same with everything from the humble Atron up to a Lv V Interceptor Stilleto.

This is not a game where everything has to be pidgeonholed into very specific roles. While most ships have bonuses that suggest general fitting, the flexibility of fitting and action has lead to things like AC vexors/Mallers, triple rep Mymidons, Armor Jaguars, and many other fittings that are not purely conventional.

The requirements for a tackling frigate are as follows

1: Ability to fit a disruptor.
2: Not dying.

That's it.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#55 - 2014-12-27 22:35:21 UTC
Removed an off topic post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#56 - 2014-12-28 07:49:16 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
i dnt see a problem with holding a ship for hours (roaming or not roaming) if the tackled player is willing to sit there for hours and not self destruct. The tackled player is not a prisoner. Only his ship (or pod) is.

It becomes a race about back-up (which is certainly interesting game play, even beyond ten minutes, even beyond an hour) or a battle of will power and boredom between the tackler and tackled.

A race of fatigue and taking gates to get on a killmail.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Ratchet Conway
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-12-28 11:13:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ratchet Conway
Anhenka wrote:



The requirements for a tackling frigate are as follows

1: Ability to fit a disruptor.
2: Not dying.

That's it.


again... you didn't read. I believe I said Scrams were OP. (the 10k model that also zaps your MWD)


Requiring One additional mod to cap stable your +2 tackle isn't going to kill you and doesn't eliminate your current capabilities.

It does however, lower the number of ships capable of the feat I suppose. (needs to research cap recharge on low slots)

As far as the other comments about destroyers/cruisers.. it really wouldn't matter if they are cap stable or not. These platforms are generally too slow to avoid ALL damage.
Alia Ravenswing
DARK HAT
#58 - 2014-12-28 11:24:01 UTC
I think it's an excellent idea. Don't worry about all the idiots that cry and whine about every proposal people come up with; they are stuck in their old ways and have no sense of adventure.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#59 - 2014-12-28 11:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Your initial premise is to encourage PVP.

PVP does not need to be encouraged, it will happen anywhere there is the opportunity for it to happen.

If CCP want more PVP then all they can do is create choke points. Or make the area more vibrant, the PVP will come.

Virtually All the threads I have read so far discussing "encouraging " PVP are simply requests to nail the victims down.

That is not PVP

Other proposals making this claim wish to "encorage" PVP by switching roles through weakening a combat mechanic, this also fails to achieve the stated goal, as once you have a tiger by the tail, losing your grip turns you into a meal.

Not exactly encouraging tiger hunting if one butters one's hands.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Alundil
Rolled Out
#60 - 2014-12-28 22:04:33 UTC
James Zimmer wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
James Zimmer wrote:
A little background: I had just purchased and fit a Tornado and was flying it into low when I ran into a Ishtar waiting on the gate for me. Realizing instantly that an Ishtar, especially at zero, would make short work of my Tornado, I did the MWD/cloak trick and warped off.

I'm not asking to turn EVE into a bunch of jousting matches, where everything is fair and even, but maybe both offense and defense need to be weakened some, so there is more grey area for fights to occur. Maybe that Ishtar should be able to force an engagement on my Tornado, and maybe that shouldn't be an automatic death sentence for me.



A: You doubled up on the bad choices by jump in in unscouted into lowsec, and doing it in a long range ship with little close range support. You did redeem yourself a bit by successfully doing the MWD trick and getting out, but two wrongs and a right still mean you made two bad decisions.

B: We are not re-balancing the entire game, system for warp scrambling, mod attributes, ship capabilities, and downsides of mods because you think that it will magically turn EVE into a land where an Arty Nado has a chance against an aggression Ishtar at close range.


A. My ship didn't die, and it was never in any serious danger, so I don't see those decisions as mistakes. I'm not dealing with bubbles in null, and though it's theoretically possible to beat the MWD trick, it's very, very rare in practice.

B. I'm not saying an Arty Nado should be able to beat a tolerably fit Ishtar at point blank range, I'm saying that killing an Arty Nado at point blank range with an Ishtar should be a little more involved than activating a warp scram and keeping within range. As it stands, the Ishtar pilot could set a keep-at range or orbit, activate a warp scram, activate turrets, launch drones and walk away from the computer. If no one else gets involved, he'll win the fight every time, regardless of what the Tornado pilot does. That is extremely boring for both parties. If the Tornado pilot has a chance of warping out, it becomes an interesting race against time, or possibly a fight that spans multiple celestials as the Ishtar chases the Tornado down.

CCP allows the MWD trick, because without it, scrams would make it utter suicide to travel alone and low would become completely desolate. However, super-powerful scrams and the super-powerful MWD trick encourages and enables people to avoid fights, which is not what EVE should be about, IMHO.


I just can't fathom why you think the cloak/MWD 'trick' is the cause of your woes. In your Tornado death scenario it had nothing to do with whether the Ishtar could catch and point you or not. That takes some skill and/or luck (or UK ping). But once pointed your long range, terrible tracking ship SHOULD lose a fight against a short range dps setup unless that pilot derps. Pure and simple.

I'm right behind you

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