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Crime & Punishment

 
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Announcement From Gorila

First post First post
Author
Lin Suizei
#161 - 2014-12-28 04:01:30 UTC
Phaedron wrote:
while i agree with this, i also disagree that people should intimidate people or make them feel shame for their chosen play style on "blogs" or places where all the purpose is to illicit the kind of attitude or action you are against.


What about if one non-highsec group defeats another similar group in a battle - should the winner also refrain from posting about it, incase it offends the losers, or casts the losers in a negative light?

If James 315 defeats a few hundred highsec miners in battle, why should he not make humorous, light-hearted and community-creating blog posts about it?

Lol I can't delete my forum sig.

Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium.
#162 - 2014-12-28 04:03:13 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Ha! I don't troll, am an expert at all things Eve, and am the farthest thing from an idiot you will ever have the pleasure of meeting. What I do quite effectively is expose you Code folks for the griefers you are. Your entire gameplay revolves around trying to make law abiding PvE players miserable, so that they quit the game in a fit of rage. Thankfully, in the long run your strategy cannot stand. Whether through punishments from CCP, gameplay changes, or resistance from hardened and elite PvE experts like me, code will be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Shocked
Oh god. I'm dying here. I've got no horse in this race, but man that is epic comedy right there. Lol
I see you found yourself a fresh chicken.


O....M....G...I almost lost it there. You are a real Narcissist aren't you Veers. Me me me...wow...you're good for a laugh though, I'll give you that...my stomach hurts from the outburts resulting from reading that little tidbit of comedy. +1 for making me laugh..I needed that. Twisted


The real joke here is CODE. After 500 billion isk lit on fire, endless rage, tears, and double agents, there is now more afk mining than ever. The organization has proven to be one of the biggest money sinks in the history of Eve online, and all while accomplishing not an iota of its mission. Code isn't supposed to be about getting guys like Gorila to backstab AG, it's supposed to be about fundamentally changing highsec and Eve...and in that it has failed spectacularly.


You keep telling yourself that Veers. I support Code because I agree with the primary basis of their ideals. I am against afk "game play" and using macros and bots to do what everyone else has to do at their keyboards. I am not a ganker, I am not against mining, or new players. The Code people are a pleasant bunch to chat with and learn from. it's easy to pass judgement on people you don't know or see eye to eye with. I have been guilty of this myself. At least i can recognize and admit it. I wish you could read some of the comments I get from anti-gankers. You would be appalled. My favorite is that since I am a female gamer and friends with Code, I am somehow the code whore, I weigh 300lbs, and look like Linda Tripp. I find it hilarious that there are so many assumptions. The problem is, Veers, you are so unwilling to see things from a different perspective that you are completely blinded to what really is. With all game feelings aside, you seem like a decent person..a bit conceited for my taste, but a decent person none the less. What you have to remember is that Eve is a game. Morals do not apply in a spaceship fantasy game about blowing up spaceships. Attempting to follow the "high road" is a pipe dream in a virtual world of anything goes. For those who suffer rl emotional distress over the actions and losses incurred in a game..perhaps they need to seek help. To get legitimately angry and hurt over what is, in essence, all fake..is an indication of some deeper issues of the player in question. It's not real. I have been in the AG channel for ages, listening to the hate and lies...the misleading and unwillingness to help and make them understand survivability is more important than yield. Besides, the tears you refer to are virtual tears...the same smack talk traded between professional sports players. Those sports players who take an opponents taunts too seriously don't last long. There are no legitimate comparisons to be made between Eve and rl...not a one. You can play how you like..but like you say Code and others try to tell you how to play, you do it ten fold in calling for changes to something so that it suits your game play style better. Eve is Eve..play it for what it is...or don't play it. I'm sure CCP will not suffer for the loss of those who don't understand or cannot adapt to the mechanics. It's so simple to adapt it ridiculous...fit a tank, pay attention, use d-scan...the possibilities are endless...but...if you're not at the keyboard, it all means nothing. After all, if someone really wants to blow you up...it's going to happen regardless. Blink

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2014-12-28 04:09:51 UTC
Phaedron wrote:
while i agree with this, i also disagree that people should intimidate people or make them feel shame for their chosen play style on "blogs" or places where all the purpose is to illicit the kind of attitude or action you are against.

Relevant post on the matter. There's no hate, nor belittling of miners. Mining is a legitimate, albeit poorly paid profession. The people being mocked aren't simply those who've chosen a "different playstyle from what we approve", they're objectively playing the game poorly, then complaining that they've been puished for playing poorly.

Even if you want to fly an untanked retriever in HiSec completely AFK, you can legitmately get away with it, assuming that it pays for itself before it gets blow'd up. That way, you simply consider the occasional gank as an operational cost.

Quote:
it is like going up to a certain ethnic person and saying the n-word and then not expecting your head to be knocked off.

Confirming that smack talk after beating someone at a game is just as bad as casual racism.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Lady Areola Fappington
#164 - 2014-12-28 04:18:30 UTC
Kaely Tanniss wrote:

You keep telling yourself that Veers. I support Code because I agree with the primary basis of their ideals. I am against afk "game play" and using macros and bots to do what everyone else has to do at their keyboards. I am not a ganker, I am not against mining, or new players. The Code people are a pleasant bunch to chat with and learn from. it's easy to pass judgement on people you don't know or see eye to eye with. I have been guilty of this myself. At least i can recognize and admit it. I wish you could read some of the comments I get from anti-gankers. You would be appalled. My favorite is that since I am a female gamer and friends with Code, I am somehow the code *****, I weigh 300lbs, and look like Linda Tripp. I find it hilarious that there are so many assumptions. The problem is, Veers, you are so unwilling to see things from a different perspective that you are completely blinded to what really is. With all game feelings aside, you seem like a decent person..a bit conceited for my taste, but a decent person none the less. What you have to remember is that Eve is a game. Morals do not apply in a spaceship fantasy game about blowing up spaceships. Attempting to follow the "high road" is a pipe dream in a virtual world of anything goes. For those who suffer rl emotional distress over the actions and losses incurred in a game..perhaps they need to seek help. To get legitimately angry and hurt over what is, in essence, all fake..is an indication of some deeper issues of the player in question. It's not real. I have been in the AG channel for ages, listening to the hate and lies...the misleading and unwillingness to help and make them understand survivability is more important than yield. Besides, the tears you refer to are virtual tears...the same smack talk traded between professional sports players. Those sports players who take an opponents taunts too seriously don't last long. There are no legitimate comparisons to be made between Eve and rl...not a one. You can play how you like..but like you say Code and others try to tell you how to play, you do it ten fold in calling for changes to something so that it suits your game play style better. Eve is Eve..play it for what it is...or don't play it. I'm sure CCP will not suffer for the loss of those who don't understand or cannot adapt to the mechanics. It's so simple to adapt it ridiculous...fit a tank, pay attention, use d-scan...the possibilities are endless...but...if you're not at the keyboard, it all means nothing. After all, if someone really wants to blow you up...it's going to happen regardless. Blink



Hey, throwing RL death threats and vileness over pretend videogame actions is totally justified. I've seen the justification thrown in this very thread. "Durr, if you don't want RL threats don't gank you deserve it."

You know, a thought. Everyone mocks and makes fun of the idiot CoD teens who can't go 5 seconds without shouting a slur. You know, the ones who take their cawadoody/battlefield 5134452 super serious? GTA5 had an entire character dedicated to mocking that stereotype. Those are the same times who sling RL death threats in Eve. Yes, the guys in AG going "hurdurr I cut a CODE members tires RL durr I'mma slit the throat of the next ganker I meet" are basically no better than a 13 year old on XBL squealing out homophobic insults and curse words.

And, before you scream "BUT CODE!", I've never met a Code member who crosses that line. Sure they poke fun in-game about buying permits and stuff, but that comes nowhere near threatening graphic death, ****, and bodily harm on someone. One of those is the equiv of saying "take me out to dinner next time before you kiss me!" after a tackle in football, the other is basically a federal crime if pursued.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Phaedron
Doomheim
#165 - 2014-12-28 04:22:09 UTC
Lin Suizei wrote:
Phaedron wrote:
while i agree with this, i also disagree that people should intimidate people or make them feel shame for their chosen play style on "blogs" or places where all the purpose is to illicit the kind of attitude or action you are against.


What about if one non-highsec group defeats another similar group in a battle - should the winner also refrain from posting about it, incase it offends the losers, or casts the losers in a negative light?

If James 315 defeats a few hundred highsec miners in battle, why should he not make humorous, light-hearted and community-creating blog posts about it?


well that isn't what i mean't and we both know it Blink what i mean't was if you have to feel the need to intimidate someone out of game for giggles then.....

if you do that then don't expect sympathy or empathy as that is the consequence of doing so [action-reaction after all]. if someone defeats group A and is part of group B & it's a legit fight or fleet engagement "blog" as normal if it isn't about something like that use common sense [i know it's not common and that's the irony]. if you are part of anything that doesn't cause you to get DT's then you are fine. if you do things that illicit a DT, maybe reconsider doing what you are doing. as obviously you are doing it WRONG.


it is wrong to get someone worked up so they act like this. but people will continue to create self created issues and expect others to clean up their mess in this case CCP for you acting indecently and then expecting them to make your continual issue that you create "vanish"....because????. why do you feel it is necessary to grief and then spag off online out of game?

this is what people "blogging" stuff that isn't helpful to anything whatsoever except a "Nyah Nyah Nyah".

personally there wouldn't be an issue if people didn't make the issue into a problem needing to be fixed when people could stop and think about what comes next. is this a good idea, should i be doing this, if i do this what happens, after i do it should no one have an opinion or disagree with me etc because it's my gamestyle™
Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium.
#166 - 2014-12-28 04:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaely Tanniss
Phaedron wrote:
Lin Suizei wrote:
Phaedron wrote:
while i agree with this, i also disagree that people should intimidate people or make them feel shame for their chosen play style on "blogs" or places where all the purpose is to illicit the kind of attitude or action you are against.


What about if one non-highsec group defeats another similar group in a battle - should the winner also refrain from posting about it, incase it offends the losers, or casts the losers in a negative light?

If James 315 defeats a few hundred highsec miners in battle, why should he not make humorous, light-hearted and community-creating blog posts about it?


well that isn't what i mean't and we both know it Blink what i mean't was if you have to feel the need to intimidate someone out of game for giggles then.....

if you do that then don't expect sympathy or empathy as that is the consequence of doing so [action-reaction after all]. if someone defeats group A and is part of group B & it's a legit fight or fleet engagement "blog" as normal if it isn't about something like that use common sense [i know it's not common and that's the irony]. if you are part of anything that doesn't cause you to get DT's then you are fine. if you do things that illicit a DT, maybe reconsider doing what you are doing. as obviously you are doing it WRONG.


it is wrong to get someone worked up so they act like this. but people will continue to create self created issues and expect others to clean up their mess in this case CCP for you acting indecently and then expecting them to make your continual issue that you create "vanish"....because????. why do you feel it is necessary to grief and then spag off online out of game?

this is what people "blogging" stuff that isn't helpful to anything whatsoever except a "Nyah Nyah Nyah".

personally there wouldn't be an issue if people didn't make the issue into a problem needing to be fixed when people could stop and think about what comes next. is this a good idea, should i be doing this, if i do this what happens, after i do it should no one have an opinion or disagree with me etc because it's my gamestyle™


Though I can see your point, I still don't know what the issue is. All of the posts, in game or on a blog, refer to in game activities and characters. Not rl players and actions. If i write a blog saying "team A blew it and they suck...Mr. character#109 absolutely failed with his crap fit ship and caused the entire team to fail and they should bow down." There is nothing wrong with this as it refers to game actions and chars. Now if a comment was made directed at an actual player by name, that is a different story...but this isn't the case. Why would the player of a char in a game take offense...after all, no one knows who they really are...and beyond that..it's a game. The line is drawn when people take insults to the "out of game" level and make personal attacks on the player rather than the character. Death threats, threats of violence, or telling one they should kill themselves or die in a fire are far beyond what is "acceptable". Don't be angry over a game...or because someone else was better than you...or caught you off guard...or because you just plain suck...It's a game. If you're a sore loser, you shouldn't be playing games. Friendly banter and poking at others in good fun is not a problem imo. Sticks and stones people....it's what I tell my 6 year old.

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..

Phaedron
Doomheim
#167 - 2014-12-28 04:37:30 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Phaedron wrote:
while i agree with this, i also disagree that people should intimidate people or make them feel shame for their chosen play style on "blogs" or places where all the purpose is to illicit the kind of attitude or action you are against.

Relevant post on the matter. There's no hate, nor belittling of miners. Mining is a legitimate, albeit poorly paid profession. The people being mocked aren't simply those who've chosen a "different playstyle from what we approve", they're objectively playing the game poorly, then complaining that they've been puished for playing poorly.

Even if you want to fly an untanked retriever in HiSec completely AFK, you can legitmately get away with it, assuming that it pays for itself before it gets blow'd up. That way, you simply consider the occasional gank as an operational cost.

Quote:
it is like going up to a certain ethnic person and saying the n-word and then not expecting your head to be knocked off.

Confirming that smack talk after beating someone at a game is just as bad as casual racism.



Double Post: sorry.

not confirming that smack talk is as bad as casual racism: it can lead to worse outcomes for all the "involved" parties. hence the need for this thread topic [in part- from how the thread has evolved]. the whole reason as far as i can tell is that people don't want DT's or to be threatened out of game. if i am wrong please tell me where i am wrong.

it should be simple: don't want DT's etc or out of game strife then don't make yourself a target of said strife. CODE. does what it wants (just like every other corp or "force within the game"). that's legit play. people spagging off out of game. not legit play.

CODE. seems to agree with me on this. this is my point and it seems it's theirs as well in limited context of course, as they don't mind spagging off out of game [assumption gleaned from reading thread in it's entirety]. that is the root cause for this "issue"......want less repercussions out of game then keep your game in your game and RL politics out of game away from the game.

i am sure it'd help the ISD and mods etc somewhat.

you want less threats or less BS, create less issues and BS.

(it seems some people have missed the point of treat others how you want to be treated, if you treat others like a bag of turd, expect the same back)
Phaedron
Doomheim
#168 - 2014-12-28 04:48:50 UTC
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
Phaedron wrote:
Lin Suizei wrote:
Phaedron wrote:
while i agree with this, i also disagree that people should intimidate people or make them feel shame for their chosen play style on "blogs" or places where all the purpose is to illicit the kind of attitude or action you are against.


What about if one non-highsec group defeats another similar group in a battle - should the winner also refrain from posting about it, incase it offends the losers, or casts the losers in a negative light?

If James 315 defeats a few hundred highsec miners in battle, why should he not make humorous, light-hearted and community-creating blog posts about it?


well that isn't what i mean't and we both know it Blink what i mean't was if you have to feel the need to intimidate someone out of game for giggles then.....

if you do that then don't expect sympathy or empathy as that is the consequence of doing so [action-reaction after all]. if someone defeats group A and is part of group B & it's a legit fight or fleet engagement "blog" as normal if it isn't about something like that use common sense [i know it's not common and that's the irony]. if you are part of anything that doesn't cause you to get DT's then you are fine. if you do things that illicit a DT, maybe reconsider doing what you are doing. as obviously you are doing it WRONG.


it is wrong to get someone worked up so they act like this. but people will continue to create self created issues and expect others to clean up their mess in this case CCP for you acting indecently and then expecting them to make your continual issue that you create "vanish"....because????. why do you feel it is necessary to grief and then spag off online out of game?

this is what people "blogging" stuff that isn't helpful to anything whatsoever except a "Nyah Nyah Nyah".

personally there wouldn't be an issue if people didn't make the issue into a problem needing to be fixed when people could stop and think about what comes next. is this a good idea, should i be doing this, if i do this what happens, after i do it should no one have an opinion or disagree with me etc because it's my gamestyle™


Though I can see your point, I still don't know what the issue is. All of the posts, in game or on a blog, refer to in game activities and characters. Not rl players and actions. If i write a blog saying "team A blew it and they suck...Mr. character#109 absolutely failed with his crap fit ship and caused the entire team to fail and they should bow down." There is nothing wrong with this as it refers to game actions and chars. Now if a comment was made directed at an actual player by name, that is a different story...but this isn't the case. Why would the player of a char in a game take offense...after all, no one knows who they really are...and beyond that..it's a game. The line is drawn when people take insults to the "out of game" level and make personal attacks on the player rather than the character. Death threats, threats of violence, or telling one they should kill themselves or die in a fire are far beyond what is "acceptable". Don't be angry over a game...or because someone else was better than you...or caught you off guard...or because you just plain suck...It's a game. If you're a sore loser, you shouldn't be playing games. Friendly banter and poking at others in good fun is not a problem imo. Sticks and stones people....it's what I tell my 6 year old.



if your 6 year old that punched another kid, then that other kid punched your kid twice as hard, after your kid talks trash about the kid he/she hit then you'd tell your kid that is normal behavior and that your kid didn't do wrong but was the other kids fault when it was your kid who instigated the whole affair.

^ that is what i mean. if you disagree that isn't normal behavior then it's your kid. not my issue.

however that explains the whole step by step process in RL context.

who agree's the kid who instigates [aka pilot] the affair should be punished for creating trouble, and who thinks said kid [pilot} should be rewarded for said creation of said problem.

the ones who didn't instigate the gank didn't initiate the issue, they did however expand upon it in unreasonable ways to civilized people. yet the ganker [or similar] wants to be protected from the strife they create.

how do you suppose CCP should handle this? i mean honestly neither group are innocent. both are guilty of something.
Lady Areola Fappington
#169 - 2014-12-28 05:02:12 UTC
Phaedron wrote:


if your 6 year old that punched another kid, then that other kid punched your kid twice as hard, after your kid talks trash about the kid he/she hit then you'd tell your kid that is normal behavior and that your kid didn't do wrong but was the other kids fault when it was your kid who instigated the whole affair.

^ that is what i mean. if you disagree that isn't normal behavior then it's your kid. not my issue.

however that explains the whole step by step process in RL context.

who agree's the kid who instigates [aka pilot] the affair should be punished for creating trouble, and who thinks said kid [pilot} should be rewarded for said creation of said problem.

the ones who didn't instigate the gank didn't initiate the issue, they did however expand upon it in unreasonable ways to civilized people. yet the ganker [or similar] wants to be protected from the strife they create.

how do you suppose CCP should handle this? i mean honestly neither group are innocent. both are guilty of something.



Lets clean this analogy up just a tad, so it fits into EVE.

"Your kid is playing football with another kid. The other kid tackles your kid, and says "Hah, gotcha!" Your kid hops up, and punches the other kid in the face."

Now the analogy fits Eve. The football game is Eve. The tackle is a gank. "Hah, gotcha" is the equiv of a CODE violation mail. The punch in the face is RL death threats.

Yeah, at that point, I'm going to have a talk with my kid about sportsmanship, ground him for a week as punishment, and apologize to the other kid's parents. I'm not gonna pat my kid on the back and say "Ohh, he had it coming!"

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#170 - 2014-12-28 05:24:19 UTC
Gorila - welcome.

Always respected you as a rival, now I get to respect you as a comrade in arms.

Your ability to keep in-game enmities in game is something I wish more of the anti-ganking community would emulate.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium.
#171 - 2014-12-28 05:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaely Tanniss
Phaedron wrote:

if your 6 year old that punched another kid, then that other kid punched your kid twice as hard, after your kid talks trash about the kid he/she hit then you'd tell your kid that is normal behavior and that your kid didn't do wrong but was the other kids fault when it was your kid who instigated the whole affair.

^ that is what i mean. if you disagree that isn't normal behavior then it's your kid. not my issue.

however that explains the whole step by step process in RL context.

who agree's the kid who instigates [aka pilot] the affair should be punished for creating trouble, and who thinks said kid [pilot} should be rewarded for said creation of said problem.

the ones who didn't instigate the gank didn't initiate the issue, they did however expand upon it in unreasonable ways to civilized people. yet the ganker [or similar] wants to be protected from the strife they create.

how do you suppose CCP should handle this? i mean honestly neither group are innocent. both are guilty of something.[/quote]





Don't take it as a personal attack on you because it's not...it's a general comment. You seem like a nice guy. However....

Again...you are comparing a game to rl. There is absolutely no comparison to this game and rl. No one gets hurt in a virtual world game. I'll say it once again as well...if you get hurt over a game, the issue lies with you..not the other person. If one cannot separate fantasy from reality, they need to step away from the computer and seek some help.

However...to comment on your comparison..my 6 year old is a girl...my 12 year old however is a boy and has had issues similar to this before. He has been picked on. He knows the difference between words and actions. Words do not merit hurt feelings...which is a lesson my 12 year old can understand while so many adults seem to struggle with this concept. Actions merit action. If someone talks smack to my son...he blows it off..or returns a witty retort. If someone lays hands on him, he tells an adult. If this does not solve the issue, he is permitted to defend himself as a last resort..and my son is no timid little boy. He takes after my side of the family and is tall like my brothers..towering over the majority of his fellow students. ..so...I figured I'd entertain that aspect of the comment since you brought it up..it still, however, has no basis pertaining to a game. I am so sick of "hurt feelings" and "politically correctness"...if someone is that easily offended, seek help or lock yourself in your house because the world is full of things people aren't going to like or agree with.

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..

Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#172 - 2014-12-28 05:40:43 UTC
Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
The "dark side" of highsec is not in the wreck of a freighter, or in a charred corpse formerly home to expensive implants. It's not in the enraged player returning to their computer, mysteriously in a capsule at their home station, or in a polite CODE agent offering what really amounts to advice on how to actually play the game.

The "dark side" of highsec, and of Eve in general, is the teeming masses of players externalizing the consequences of their own actions, and demanding protections of their desired playstyle with total disregard for the risk-reward balance, economic supply and demand, and impact on others' playstyles. The "dark side" is in exploitive highsec industrial corps that seek virtual riches by adhering to a boring, restrictive, and anti-social game experience. They never develop, never get better, and feel entitled to be insulated from the ramifications of that choice. The "dark side" is the thousands of unsubbed trial, new, and even 'veteran' accounts that were never exposed to anything better.

The real players come from all professions - hisec mining included. They learn from their mistakes (or better, from others'), learn the in-game tools, and research and experiment with counters to each of their enemies' tactics. They recognize that without destruction, the market collapses, and they delight in failure the less prepared and less intelligent, as it means more opportunity for their own success.

Don't like CODE? Great, you don't have to. Feelings hurt? This not a game from children, don't act like one. You, and you alone, are responsible for your story. Make it a good one.



*slow clap*

Whole Squid: Get Inked.

Phaedron
Doomheim
#173 - 2014-12-28 06:33:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaedron
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
Phaedron wrote:

if your 6 year old that punched another kid, then that other kid punched your kid twice as hard, after your kid talks trash about the kid he/she hit then you'd tell your kid that is normal behavior and that your kid didn't do wrong but was the other kids fault when it was your kid who instigated the whole affair.

^ that is what i mean. if you disagree that isn't normal behavior then it's your kid. not my issue.

however that explains the whole step by step process in RL context.

who agree's the kid who instigates [aka pilot] the affair should be punished for creating trouble, and who thinks said kid [pilot} should be rewarded for said creation of said problem.

the ones who didn't instigate the gank didn't initiate the issue, they did however expand upon it in unreasonable ways to civilized people. yet the ganker [or similar] wants to be protected from the strife they create.

how do you suppose CCP should handle this? i mean honestly neither group are innocent. both are guilty of something.






Don't take it as a personal attack on you because it's not...it's a general comment. You seem like a nice guy. However....

Again...you are comparing a game to rl. There is absolutely no comparison to this game and rl. No one gets hurt in a virtual world game. I'll say it once again as well...if you get hurt over a game, the issue lies with you..not the other person. If one cannot separate fantasy from reality, they need to step away from the computer and seek some help.

However...to comment on your comparison..my 6 year old is a girl...my 12 year old however is a boy and has had issues similar to this before. He has been picked on. He knows the difference between words and actions. Words do not merit hurt feelings...which is a lesson my 12 year old can understand while so many adults seem to struggle with this concept. Actions merit action. If someone talks smack to my son...he blows it off..or returns a witty retort. If someone lays hands on him, he tells an adult. If this does not solve the issue, he is permitted to defend himself as a last resort..and my son is no timid little boy. He takes after my side of the family and is tall like my brothers..towering over the majority of his fellow students. ..so...I figured I'd entertain that aspect of the comment since you brought it up..it still, however, has no basis pertaining to a game. I am so sick of "hurt feelings" and "politically correctness"...if someone is that easily offended, seek help or lock yourself in your house because the world is full of things people aren't going to like or agree with.[/quote]


while i agree 100% there is one slight issue i have, and that is the person/s whom are getting OOG threats are causing people to respond in a manner that leads to OOG negative experience which could be avoided. that is all.

not to mention the comparison to RL is accurate and valid: RL threats caused by in game action. that is what i take from this whole thread.

if people continue to act in a manner that leads to this type of action-reaction thing and it continues to escalate beyond CCP's control is that the fault of those getting pushed to that last resort response which i am sure no one takes lightly especially the person who gets harassed to the point that they threaten someone in RL [if you do this you are a messed up person in RL no question's asked], so maybe it is an idea to not get to that point in the first place. maybe tone down the anger inducing behavior.

you expect others to behave in a certain manner, why not show them the same respect you expect from them. this is what you all want no? to play how you want. let others have the freedom to do the same


all these OOG, Real Life issues wouldn't happen. it does take two to create a problem, but let's not forget one instigates the whole affair.

if you continue to behave this way don't be surprised if people are crazy in real life. welcome to reality. not everyone is sane is it their fault you want to act like a space turd and ruin their in game experience, then act like your the victim......yes that is a slow clap moment.

of course people won't like me or i won't like what they do, that is part of life, it is what makes life interesting. idk about you but EVE is interesting without OOG.....BS.......feel free to disagree, and continue to have issues.....it's not rocket science.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#174 - 2014-12-28 06:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Steppa Musana
Person: Actions performed for the purpose of illiciting a negative emotional response for amusement and public humiliation are for scumbags and sociopaths.

Griefer: Shooting a ship in a PVP game does not condone threats of RL violence

Person: The gankers are purposely messaging them after or bothering them through mails for the purpose of illiciting such a reaction.

Griefer: Shooting a ship in a PVP game does not condone threats of RL violence

Person: The gankers are actually looking for that reaction though, they berate the victim as much as possible for that very reason.

Griefer: Shooting a ship in a PVP game does not condone threats of RL violence


Is it blissful ignorance or just spin and dishonesty?
The antics people complain about from groups like CODE is not just a matter of shooting spaceships. Yes, some people make that argument. That doesn't let you off the hook. It's a matter of the harassment that takes place in chat channels and few seem willing to be honest about this.

It's not just "nyah nyah I won". It goes a lot deeper than that. For many gankers, the motivation is the tears. The motivation is to upset the victim by berating, judging and insulting them through mails and messages. It's non-sense that the teamspeak stuff is just Erotica1 either. There's a post this month from minerbumping where loyal is seen asking if an upset victim has teamspeak.

There is one individual that is high-ranked within CODE that really exemplifies exactly what I am talking about. I will refrain from using his name specifically. This player wasn't always in CODE and back then didn't have pretend he was semi-polite to appease the CODE roleplay. You know what he would after he ganked someone? He'd call them something racist and/or homophobic, tell them to quit the game, call them "bitches", call them "pussies", and pretty much act like your typical high-school bully. He'd do it with or without the victim having said anything. Is that roleplay? And today... every other word is "tears". That's someone you guys consider a leader in your community ladies and gentlemen. A person you've chosen to represent you.

This whole roleplay thing is many times just an excuse anyways. Telling someone they are "the bottom feeders of the game" isn't roleplay, it's an insult. The EULA explicitly states you may not use roleplay as an excuse to be offensive or insulting. Look it up.

What was Kaarous saying before about who you keep company? How who you associate with reflects badly on you? I agree with Kaarous on this, and housing these kinds of players in your community reflects badly on the community itself. The most unfortunate part of all this is that most of you are probably not like the individual I've painted above. But when you deny that a non-significant portion of your colleagues are, you do yourselves and no one else any favors.

And to clarify, no, RL death threats are never okay. Neither is engaging someone in conversation for the purpose of illiciting a negative emotional response out of them. Both are wrong and both sets of players should be ashamed of themselves.

In before "...but shooting a ship in a PVP game doesn't condone threats of RL violence" and/or collection of my tears by CODE/CODE supporters.

Hope you guys missed me. Happy Holidays. Bear


Note: This post was initially removed for it's profanity and ranting. I have adjusted and removed those sections and hope this is now deemed acceptable by our ISD overlords.
Lin Suizei
#175 - 2014-12-28 06:49:51 UTC
Phaedron wrote:
while i agree 100% there is one slight issue i have, and that is the person/s whom are getting OOG threats are causing people to respond in a manner that leads to OOG negative experience which could be avoided. that is all.

if people continue to act in a manner that leads to this type of action-reaction thing and it continues to escalate beyond CCP's control is that the fault of those getting pushed to that last resort response which i am sure no one takes lightly especially the person who gets harassed to the point that they threaten someone in RL ... maybe tone down the anger inducing behavior.


Hmm. There's two separate issues we should be careful not to confuse:

- Players deliberately inciting other players to anger, whether to use it to drive an in-game petition or just for lulz.
- Players who get mad because they lost their mission boat / Orca.

The first is a bit tasteless, on that we agree: but we also encounter a lot of the second. A lot (having popped quite a few carebears myself, I would argue over 50%) of the rage-mails on minerbumping.com don't involve any provocation whatsoever - people simply start issuing inappropriate threats because someone popped their navy raven or whatever.

In a nutshell, I agree we shouldn't be provoking other players to the extent that they resort to RL threats - but I'd wager this isn't what's causing the RL threats against New Order aligned players you refer to in your post.

Lol I can't delete my forum sig.

Phaedron
Doomheim
#176 - 2014-12-28 07:11:03 UTC
Lin Suizei wrote:
Phaedron wrote:
while i agree 100% there is one slight issue i have, and that is the person/s whom are getting OOG threats are causing people to respond in a manner that leads to OOG negative experience which could be avoided. that is all.

if people continue to act in a manner that leads to this type of action-reaction thing and it continues to escalate beyond CCP's control is that the fault of those getting pushed to that last resort response which i am sure no one takes lightly especially the person who gets harassed to the point that they threaten someone in RL ... maybe tone down the anger inducing behavior.


Hmm. There's two separate issues we should be careful not to confuse:

- Players deliberately inciting other players to anger, whether to use it to drive an in-game petition or just for lulz.
- Players who get mad because they lost their mission boat / Orca.

The first is a bit tasteless, on that we agree: but we also encounter a lot of the second. A lot (having popped quite a few carebears myself, I would argue over 50%) of the rage-mails on minerbumping.com don't involve any provocation whatsoever - people simply start issuing inappropriate threats because someone popped their navy raven or whatever.

In a nutshell, I agree we shouldn't be provoking other players to the extent that they resort to RL threats - but I'd wager this isn't what's causing the RL threats against New Order aligned players you refer to in your post.



i'll let you in on something: i'm the nice guy of a bottom feeding ganker. i understand both sides. my alt that's a ganker takes no prisoners and doesn't accept Isk so someone can save their ship, some could say i'm the player type that induces anger through my interest in PVP, but lacking the skill to PVP others who can "fight back". though i don't do it for the tears, i do it because i can. i have no issue with ganking. it's fun. [for a while when bored of mining etc]. what i think we all have an issue with is people taking the next step and taking things too far. essentially anything OOG and threat related.

i think the problem i have and many seem to have is with:

"- Players deliberately inciting other players to anger, whether to use it to drive an in-game petition or just for lulz."

this is what causes the problem OOG. i don't associate with nor do i oppose CODE
[what they do is fine with me as long as i'm left alone, i'll leave them alone, they don't bother me so i haven't spoken against them- though it may appears so].

i am 100% solo in everything i do....for the lolz [i accept my play style isn't the majority nor do i expect it to be]. so really the reason i list CODE at all is because someone else has mentioned them as being partially responsible in this thread, if they are incorrect then i have been misinformed.

but if they haven't and no one with then has gotten DT's [which only an idiot would condone in RL] then this isn't an issue at all.

since someone has recieved real life issues OOG [out of game] then it seems like some one needs to stop acting like they can do anything without any negative flack.

because reality, not the game, teaches us our actions lead to reactions and sometimes they have certain consequences no one wants.

also thank you for being diplomatic. i appreciate it.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#177 - 2014-12-28 07:16:02 UTC
On the topic of these RL comparisons, if you think actions are a bigger deal than words you are living in the past. Do you think most kids who commit suicide do so because the bully punched them? No they commit suicide because they are made fun of and berated by their peers.
"Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never harm me" - People ignorant of human psychology.
Lady Areola Fappington
#178 - 2014-12-28 07:30:55 UTC
Lin Suizei wrote:


Hmm. There's two separate issues we should be careful not to confuse:

- Players deliberately inciting other players to anger, whether to use it to drive an in-game petition or just for lulz.
- Players who get mad because they lost their mission boat / Orca.

The first is a bit tasteless, on that we agree: but we also encounter a lot of the second. A lot (having popped quite a few carebears myself, I would argue over 50%) of the rage-mails on minerbumping.com don't involve any provocation whatsoever - people simply start issuing inappropriate threats because someone popped their navy raven or whatever.

In a nutshell, I agree we shouldn't be provoking other players to the extent that they resort to RL threats - but I'd wager this isn't what's causing the RL threats against New Order aligned players you refer to in your post.



This is the most common sequence of events that happens when a CODE team rolls in.

CODE in local: Hello everyone, Permit check, please have your mining permits ready for inspection!
Miner 1: (homophobic insults I can't repeat on forums)
Miner 2: (Threats of RL violence to gankers)
Miner 3: Yeah what they said, plus a goat!

*Code team executes a gank vs. clueless miner*

CODE: (Killmail link) Don't be goofus, buy a permit!
Miner 1: (homophobic insults I can't repeat on forums)
Miner 2: (Threats of RL violence to gankers)
Miner 3: (Threats to commit non consensual sexual activities against ganker's family)

*CODE team sends evemail to ganked miner*

CODE: "Hi, you lost your pod and ship because you broke The Code. Please go read up (website) and buy your permit today!"
Gankee: (Involved graphic descriptions of sexual acts, RL violence, and homophobic slurs)



CODE members make it a point to be polite in any communication with gank target. For lack a better term, they keep things as classy as possible. According to some, polite, classy communication with a target is plenty of justification to basically commit felonies (Yes, communication of a threat across interstate lines is a federal felony in the US!).

It's the equivalent (gosh I like that term) of threatening to murder someone's family because they said "Hey, I got boardwalk before you!" in a game of Monopoly, then justifying it with "Well he was gloating it made me feel bad he deserves it!".

To put it simply, there is absolutely zero justification for that sort of behaviour. None. 100% inappropriate. I don't care if the other person rubbed your face in the kill. They could ALOD post your loss all across the internet, and it STILL isn't a good enough reason to fling out that sort of disgustingness.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Kaely Tanniss
Black Hydra Consortium.
#179 - 2014-12-28 07:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaely Tanniss
Steppa Musana wrote:
On the topic of these RL comparisons, if you think actions are a bigger deal than words you are living in the past. Do you think most kids who commit suicide do so because the bully punched them? No they commit suicide because they are made fun of and berated by their peers.
"Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never harm me" - People ignorant of human psychology.


No...those who do commit suicide have deeper issues than name calling. You can only be hurt by words and taunting if YOU allow it. There are deeper psychological issues at play there. Parents play a large part in it too. There has ALWAYS been teasing and bullying in many of the forums of our lives...how you decide to deal with it is a personal CHOICE. You assume I am ignorant of psychology..but it was one of my majors back in college. The problem is society and the way things have become with all of the pc bs has made people weak and timid. If you are hurt by words..there are underlying issues within you (not you personally...you know what I mean). You can only be hurt by what you allow to hurt you.

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..

Phaedron
Doomheim
#180 - 2014-12-28 08:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaedron
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
Steppa Musana wrote:
On the topic of these RL comparisons, if you think actions are a bigger deal than words you are living in the past. Do you think most kids who commit suicide do so because the bully punched them? No they commit suicide because they are made fun of and berated by their peers.
"Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never harm me" - People ignorant of human psychology.


No...those who do commit suicide have deeper issues than name calling. You can only be hurt by words and taunting if YOU allow it. There are deeper psychological issues at play there. Parents play a large part in it too. There has ALWAYS been teasing and bullying in many of the forums of our lives...how you decide to deal with it is a personal CHOICE. You assume I am ignorant of psychology..but it was one of my majors back in college. The problem is society and the way things have become with all of the pc bs has made people weak and timid. If you are hurt by words..there are underlying issues within you (not you personally...you know what I mean). You can only be hurt by what you allow to hurt you.


+100% this.

however when the shoe is on the other foot, you cannot expect nothing less from those taunted to go this far to not go even further. that is the problem that everyone ignores in favor of their viewpoint in order to justify their activities and negate responsibility for their actions. if you harass someone don't you expect something in return, or do you honestly think words [or actions] are meaningless?

if you think words are meaningless watch the doco "the secret" they do an experiment, three pitchers of water, one labeled love, one hate, one ignore. the result showed that if you ignore something you do more damage to your cells [as part of the experiment with water crystals and word association] than hate does, and with love impure water becomes pure.

words sure have meaning and more than most seem to understand.