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It's nearly the anniversary of the Empress's historic announcement

Author
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#61 - 2014-12-25 10:02:09 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
The thing I am most sick of is people from outside the Federation presuming to speak for the Intaki. Perhaps you will say that I cannot speak for all Intaki - but I'm sure as hell more qualified to speak for the Intaki than you. Inevitably - and I do mean inevitably - if my people are mentioned in a conversation about the Federation, we are always a stick with which to beat them. My people are spoken of as ignorant dupes, abused wretches or willing collaborators, depicted as brutally oppressed, wilfully neglected or mercilessly exploited all depending on the narrative a critic of the Federation feels is neccessary to push. Whenever "the plight of the Intaki" is brought up, it is almost never out of genuine sympathy for our people - it is a pretext for denigrating the Federation.


This sounds exactly like how I feel every time outsiders talk about slaves and Amarr.


I wonder how the Republicans feel about us talking about them? Of course, being born and raised in the Empire gives us some sort of superiority, doesn't it?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#62 - 2014-12-25 10:04:28 UTC
Quiet clearly I gave offence although I really didn't claim most of the things you said I claimed. Again.

So, what now? Having tried to beat me with what Diana Kim says, you're now going to try to beat me with what Tibus Heth did? I thought I registered my disagreement with him when I stood with those Caldari Patriots that beat him and his supporters like a drum for months on end and drove him from office.

I don't know who you're mad at. It sure isn't me.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#63 - 2014-12-25 10:05:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the territory covered in the Militia Powers Act was decided exclusively by CONCORD, not the Empires, as a means of containing the conflict exclusively in the least populated areas. So, I don't believe the Intaki situation is per-se the Federations fault, except in the sense that they left the region underdeveloped to begin with.
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#64 - 2014-12-25 10:19:25 UTC
It's now the anniversary of the Empress's historic announcment !


I have given everyone a day off, to wave miniature flags, and do other things that they might want to do. Yaay.

Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#65 - 2014-12-25 11:01:59 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the territory covered in the Militia Powers Act was decided exclusively by CONCORD, not the Empires, as a means of containing the conflict exclusively in the least populated areas. So, I don't believe the Intaki situation is per-se the Federations fault, except in the sense that they left the region underdeveloped to begin with.


You're pre-supposing that Concord does ANYTHING to sovereign territory without the agreement of the landholders. I mean, you're not suggesting Concord unilaterally decided "Eff those Intaki in particular" and the Federation just rolled with it, right?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#66 - 2014-12-25 12:02:19 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You're pre-supposing that Concord does ANYTHING to sovereign territory without the agreement of the landholders. I mean, you're not suggesting Concord unilaterally decided "Eff those Intaki in particular" and the Federation just rolled with it, right?


It helps to consider the context of how the war begun. At the onset, while the Republic/Imperial front was a situation of mutual aggression, the northern one was close to a pure State invasion - Tibus Heth made no secret whatsoever of his desire not only to reclaim Caldari Prime, but also to march into Federal space at large as part of a vague "retribution" for what he perceived as the dishonor they had inflicted upon us, and to take whatever he could get (which for a little while, he did). That's why the Patriot bloc was forced to show it's hand when it came to Black Rise; He wanted to use it as a staging point to assault the Federations flank.

The situation has changed since then with Roden as president, of course, with many people in their government enjoying the status quo, but if Foiritan had his way with CONCORD, there wouldn't be a war front at all. That's the reason the war is as confined as it is. With half their signatories wanting peace and the others wanting war, the latter of which goes directly against their mandate, they were forced to create an arrangement which satisfied them without completely abandoning their obligations to the former.

An arrangement which ended up being, in simple terms, "low-population, low-security border systems are fair game", a qualification which Intaki had the misfortune of meeting. It is by no means what everyone wanted at the time.

I can try to dig up the old articles from the time, if you're curious.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-12-25 12:06:53 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You're pre-supposing that Concord does ANYTHING to sovereign territory without the agreement of the landholders. I mean, you're not suggesting Concord unilaterally decided "Eff those Intaki in particular" and the Federation just rolled with it, right?

The Federation couldn't refuse the Emergency War Powers Act without pulling out of CONCORD, at which point it would have abandoned CONCORD's protection (bad), quite probably collapsed CONCORD (worse), likely sparked off a skirmish in Luminaire (awful) and removed all obstacles to a full-scale war in the cluster (catastrophic). Heth was coming for Placid and Verge Vendor whether or not we signed CEWPA, and to protect ourselves without plunging the cluster into chaos (and exacting a vast civilian death toll) and risking the affected zones anyway, the Federation basically had to agree it. It greatly limited what Heth and his genocidal lackeys were able to do to us, and forced him to fight us on roughly equal terms. When I say "roughly equal," of course, one has to remember that Black Rise is a wretched hole full of State citizens who are only one step above being exiles, while Placid houses a founding member of the Federation and dozens of our colonies.

CEWPA certainly didn't favour the Federation, but not signing it would have been infinitely worse.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#68 - 2014-12-25 13:49:02 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Anja Suorsa wrote:
So, what is it exactly the Matari want from Amarr if it's not the return of their people?

My teacher was telling me, that the true desire of any slave is not to stop being a slave, but rather to become master and have their own slaves.


Both of those are wrong.

Now I understand (or at least I believe that I understand it correctly) partly an idea of slavery in the Empire, and I got idea, that the desire of a proper slave would be to serve the God. Well, it is just my idea, and I will appreciate if you correct me.

However, what I have told before wasn't said about faithful slaves. It was said from a practical understanding of slavery, as at that time never I, nor my teacher were acquainted with your Faith.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#69 - 2014-12-25 13:54:30 UTC
Mitara Newelle wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Mitara Newelle wrote:
The end of slavery is also what Amarr seek, once it has served its purpose and is no longer needed.

Your timescale is unsuitable for the rest of us. Modify it, or cease complaining about Minmatar freedom fighters.

Or you could stop being an impatient troublesome little brat, sign yourself over to a proper Holder who will show you The Way, and help us along, hm?

Lady Newelle, please excuse me, but I believe that I have answered about this situation earlier here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5339005#post5339005 (reply #19, with exception he isn't a minmatar).

I am not sure help from such person could be meaningful, valuable or appreciated.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#70 - 2014-12-25 14:25:58 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Anja Suorsa wrote:
So, what is it exactly the Matari want from Amarr if it's not the return of their people?

My teacher was telling me, that the true desire of any slave is not to stop being a slave, but rather to become master and have their own slaves.


Both of those are wrong.

Now I understand (or at least I believe that I understand it correctly) partly an idea of slavery in the Empire, and I got idea, that the desire of a proper slave would be to serve the God. Well, it is just my idea, and I will appreciate if you correct me.

However, what I have told before wasn't said about faithful slaves. It was said from a practical understanding of slavery, as at that time never I, nor my teacher were acquainted with your Faith.


You still don't understand, because you're still trying to apply a single all-encompassing viewpoint when there is none.

The desires of slaves are as widespread as any free person.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-12-25 15:03:53 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:

You still don't understand, because you're still trying to apply a single all-encompassing viewpoint when there is none.

The desires of slaves are as widespread as any free person.

Ah, okay, Lieutenant, I was thinking about the dominant and most widespread statistically desire, screened on a selected group of peoples with common trait, regarding the trait under discussion.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2014-12-25 17:15:15 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the territory covered in the Militia Powers Act was decided exclusively by CONCORD, not the Empires, as a means of containing the conflict exclusively in the least populated areas. So, I don't believe the Intaki situation is per-se the Federations fault, except in the sense that they left the region underdeveloped to begin with.

Yes, I think these systems weren't chosen randomly. I heard, that the war between Federation and State was just because Federation wanted Caldari's Black Rise region for themselves.

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Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#73 - 2014-12-25 18:18:26 UTC
Louella Dougans wrote:
It's now the anniversary of the Empress's historic announcment !


I have given everyone a day off, to wave miniature flags, and do other things that they might want to do. Yaay.

We should all rejoice that so many were Reclaimed in Her Majesty's wisdom.

By His light, and His will.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#74 - 2014-12-25 21:56:33 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You're pre-supposing that Concord does ANYTHING to sovereign territory without the agreement of the landholders. I mean, you're not suggesting Concord unilaterally decided "Eff those Intaki in particular" and the Federation just rolled with it, right?

The Federation couldn't refuse the Emergency War Powers Act without pulling out of CONCORD, at which point it would have abandoned CONCORD's protection (bad), quite probably collapsed CONCORD (worse), likely sparked off a skirmish in Luminaire (awful) and removed all obstacles to a full-scale war in the cluster (catastrophic). Heth was coming for Placid and Verge Vendor whether or not we signed CEWPA, and to protect ourselves without plunging the cluster into chaos (and exacting a vast civilian death toll) and risking the affected zones anyway, the Federation basically had to agree it. It greatly limited what Heth and his genocidal lackeys were able to do to us, and forced him to fight us on roughly equal terms. When I say "roughly equal," of course, one has to remember that Black Rise is a wretched hole full of State citizens who are only one step above being exiles, while Placid houses a founding member of the Federation and dozens of our colonies.

CEWPA certainly didn't favour the Federation, but not signing it would have been infinitely worse.


That certainly is a tough situation. I can only hope that nobody the likes of Heth comes to power again, as an attempt to invade the Federation on any kind of broad front would have been like trying to use a scalpel to cut rocks. The Federal war machine may react to new situations slowly but when it gets into gear it's probably the pre-eminent military force in the cluster.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Erin Savonarola
Doomheim
#75 - 2014-12-25 22:23:41 UTC
Mitara Newelle wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Mitara Newelle wrote:
The end of slavery is also what Amarr seek, once it has served its purpose and is no longer needed.

Your timescale is unsuitable for the rest of us. Modify it, or cease complaining about Minmatar freedom fighters.

Or you could stop being an impatient troublesome little brat, sign yourself over to a proper Holder who will show you The Way, and help us along, hm?

Mr. Ixiris is amusing at best, an annoyance at worst. Imperial policy will be decided by Imperial officials and no matter how loud the mewling of others, it will not change. That said, it's best not to feed the trolls, hmmm?
For all the baseliners that do frequent this forum to catch up on the latest in capsuleer gossip, there are immigration opportunities that exist for persons to come into the Empire. Not only do we offer good benefits in terms to medical care (a commoner in Amarr can expect to live easily over a century), once an immigrant has completed their period of indentured servitude (usually no more than fifty years) they will receive a generous compensation package that will jump start their lives as an Amarr citizen.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-12-25 22:27:17 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
That certainly is a tough situation. I can only hope that nobody the likes of Heth comes to power again, as an attempt to invade the Federation on any kind of broad front would have been like trying to use a scalpel to cut rocks. The Federal war machine may react to new situations slowly but when it gets into gear it's probably the pre-eminent military force in the cluster.

Well, at least you're aware of this. I keep telling Caldari hotheads who seem insistent on rattling the sabre that the Federation has never actually been in a situation in which its continued existence is anything approaching being seriously threatened - and that for the good of everyone involved, it's probably best if it stays that way.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Jukko Riis
Doomheim
#77 - 2014-12-26 01:24:34 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
[quote=Gwen Ikiryo]
Yes, I think these systems weren't chosen randomly. I heard, that the war between Federation and State was just because Federation wanted Caldari's Black Rise region for themselves.


There were other factors, but the crimes perpetrated by the Federation against the colonies in Black Rise were certainly significant.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#78 - 2014-12-26 01:39:23 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
That certainly is a tough situation. I can only hope that nobody the likes of Heth comes to power again, as an attempt to invade the Federation on any kind of broad front would have been like trying to use a scalpel to cut rocks. The Federal war machine may react to new situations slowly but when it gets into gear it's probably the pre-eminent military force in the cluster.

Well, at least you're aware of this. I keep telling Caldari hotheads who seem insistent on rattling the sabre that the Federation has never actually been in a situation in which its continued existence is anything approaching being seriously threatened - and that for the good of everyone involved, it's probably best if it stays that way.


I tell everyone who asks the self-same thing. Just because I'm a Patriot doesn't mean I can't count. Moreover the Caldari Navy has been forged for the task of defending the State, not invading the Federation. While we could never break the Federal Navy in a war of aggression, it's worth remembering that it didn't manage to break us in over a century of attrition.

Which suits me fine. I have no interest in stealing Federation systems, my only interest is in defending Caldari ones.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#79 - 2014-12-26 02:43:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the territory covered in the Militia Powers Act was decided exclusively by CONCORD, not the Empires, as a means of containing the conflict exclusively in the least populated areas. So, I don't believe the Intaki situation is per-se the Federations fault, except in the sense that they left the region underdeveloped to begin with.

Yes, I think these systems weren't chosen randomly. I heard, that the war between Federation and State was just because Federation wanted Caldari's Black Rise region for themselves.


Miss Hanaya, I would question how the the war would start at all if that was the case, since the Federation didn't even know Black Rise existed until State ships started pouring out of it. The war might be somewhat about that now, but that certainly wasn't how it begun.

I can find you something more concrete if you want, though.
Alabath Schmidt
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2014-12-26 02:45:25 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
So those released by Her Imperial Majesty are "brainwashed and unwanted souls dropped onto an already overburdened Republic"...

And yet you all still want to invade the Empire to "rescue" and bring more of these "brainwashed and unwanted souls" into the Republic?

As usual, the claims of caring for the lives of slaves are purely so that you can feel morally good about yourselves, as you don't seem to actually want the people nor care about their well-being.

Pick one. Either you want to help the slaves or you don't want to. Don't claim to want to help the slaves and then abandon us as soon as the chains are off because you can't stand the thought of being associated with people who don't share your culture.


Her Imperial Majesty gave you what you said you wanted. If that's not what you actually wanted, then stop asking for it.

And by the way? She never 'dropped' anyone onto the Republic. The Emancipation Decree didn't come with a mandate to move to the Republic. That was a choice made by the former slaves. Choice, that thing you claim you wanted them to have.


This is the truth, my goodness. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm tired of hearing people talk the talk but not walk the walk. I swear, anti-slavery politics in the war has become more of an excuse to fight than a real moral motivation. The Amarr are "supposed" to be the religious ones, but the hollow holier-than-thou attitudes have been on the Gallente-Minmatar side of the fence.

Take them. Appreciate the gesture. Help them. If you care about those enslaved, that's what you should be doing to those who are released. Not complaining about their politics. Not complaining what a burden they are. Saying they are "unwanted" is, in essence, saying you want them freed only if you don't have to handle the consequences of their freedom afterwards. It's saying that you care about them only when they're politically convenient.