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Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#41 - 2014-12-27 12:38:44 UTC
Runner Caldear wrote:
Thanks everyone for all the feedback and help in pointing out my obvious stereotypical thinking. Eve is not like any other game I have come across and I am trying to find my place and my way in it, without too much grief or or loss. But I am sure you veterans will all have something to contribute about that too.

So allow me just to say thank you for putting me straight and I look forward to one day being as wise and accomplished as you are. (Is accomplishment of any value in Eve? Is it even the right term?)

I will just say "fly safe" and leave...........


I've told this to others, and you might find it useful too; this isn't a game, its a hobby. Think about it.

By the way, I don't recommend trying to avoid grief and loss. Embrace it, let it flow through you. Sink to our level and dance at the monster's ball. It's far more fun.


Finally;

the only accomplishments in EVE are what you set for yourself.


Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-12-27 14:20:41 UTC
I am not writing this for the OP, because the OP seems to be determined to never get it. I suspect the OP has decided that they are right and isn't really open to a discussion. So I am writing this for the lurkers.

A lot of the other posters here have covered a lot of good points on this topic as well, and discussed the ones I covered after this one better and in more detail. There is one point that I think needs to be made and that is on the M parts of MMORPG. Most other games cap group size. You can only have X players for your raid/battlegrounds/whatever. This is actually a problem. People love to optimise and win, and when you limit spots on your team people start to exclude anyone who might not help them succeed. Now this in other games leads to lower level or geared characters being excluded from content and regarded as useless, and I suspect the whole idea of an endgame comes from this. But EVE is different. InEVE there is no cost to the group for bringing another n00b. There are no hard limits and bringing someone in a frigate with a scram doesn't mean leaving a logi at home. Ad at it's core, this is why the whole idea that newer players can't do the 'end game' (a useless concept in EVE) is demonstratively false.

There is no linear progression in EVE. Assuming it follows a nice simple linear path towards an end game like WoW and it's legion of clones is really not helpful.

Now it is true that for an individual player skill points and gear selection, such as it is, matters, it doesn't on the same way as the gap in power between someone at the end game of a more usual mmorpg and someone 10 levels down. In EVE a battleship isn't better than a frigate, it just has a different role.

While you do progress towards a local maximum like t1 frigate to t2 in some areas, in general the main difference between a 10mil SP character and a 100mil SP character is the number of different options and roles they can fill. There is of course one caveat to this though, knowledge of the game's mechanics and the ability to engineer an encounter that favours you can trump almost any divide in 'gear' and 'level', and given the open nature of the environment in EVE, there is a lot a player can do about this.

Next is the idea of an end game, you know, that toxic idea in most mmorpgs that you don't get to have fun until you reach a certain level or gear score. The idea that you just grind to level your character (or your dominix) before you can play. This isn't really true for EVE, unless you make it true. In EVE you choose your own end game, and it can be almost anything. Hell, there even was one guy who made his end game exploring Null in a shuttle.
Serene Repose
#43 - 2014-12-27 14:55:18 UTC
OP....to paraphrase Willie the Shake:

clichés ... clichés ... clichés

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#44 - 2014-12-27 20:04:55 UTC
Kira Inari wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Yeah, SPs matter in EVE. Don't let people tell you otherwise. There are lots of other factors involved but if you can only fly an Incursus with 1900 HP and 30 DPS you are going to have a hard time beating a year old character who has trained some PVP and ship support sklills in 1v1 in another frigate. I just started a second character with my free 20 days and forgot how many skills you have to train just to fit out a T1 frigate decently. When people talk about new characters and low SPs in this game they are talking about people who have played a year and have 20 mil. Not a couple of weeks. I am new and this guy was newer.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43333520/

or this guy - don't be him - he challenged me to a duel becuase he was in a battleship and I was in a lowly frigate.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43269997/


I've been shown killmails of fights between a fleet of T1 cruisers and a near equally-sized, much more expensive and skillpoint-intense fleet of T2, Faction, and other ships, all Cruiser or higher (We're talking a Sin, Ashimmu, and more) where the losses for the T1 cruiser size was 1-2 ships (40-50m) and the losses for the massively better-skilled, more expensive fleet was on the order of 2b+.

Skill points and Isk cost aren't everything.



Everything being equal they help. All I am saying is that skillpoints (especially for a brand new character) do matter. Knowing what to do with them matters more but having more options to employ is often better than few options.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#45 - 2014-12-27 20:06:11 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:


And make sure you come after me with a single month old character so you are putting you ISK where your mouth is.


Afraid of a little mechanical leverage?



No just trying to make him put his ISK where his mouth is.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#46 - 2014-12-27 20:07:37 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Yeah, SPs matter in EVE. Don't let people tell you otherwise. There are lots of other factors involved but if you can only fly an Incursus with 1900 HP and 30 DPS you are going to have a hard time beating a year old character who has trained some PVP and ship support sklills in 1v1 in another frigate. I just started a second character with my free 20 days and forgot how many skills you have to train just to fit out a T1 frigate decently. When people talk about new characters and low SPs in this game they are talking about people who have played a year and have 20 mil. Not a couple of weeks. I am new and this guy was newer.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43333520/

or this guy - don't be him - he challenged me to a duel becuase he was in a battleship and I was in a lowly frigate.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/43269997/


You are the wrong person to give people advice. You can pvp in this game as soon as you are able to fit a scram. Just because you struggled does not mean everybody will.

Countering your kill boards links i could post a few myself killing battleships of players much older than i was using my frigate or cruiser.

SP helps yes, but in less than month of focused skilling that players will be on the same foot as in a in a frigate of his choosing. SP matters naught if you don't know how to use it affectively.

Bad advice or information grabs my attention the wrong way. Will see you ASAP.


I hope so. You have wussed out on me before spaceship video game hero. I didn't focus my training when I started out because there were so many things to do I tried a little of everything.


And make sure you come after me with a single month old character so you are putting you ISK where your mouth is.


Say it as it was. When I wardecced the corp majority left. Those that was still in it logged on and stayed afk in station for hours never leaving. Including YOU.

Always remember that.

I got many wars I declare, you are more then welcome to join in as allies to "help" them.


In what game did that happen.? It wasn't EvE.
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#47 - 2014-12-27 22:51:02 UTC
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
==Snip==

Not true! There's a cap of 256 people per (in game) fleet. Although if you reach that point you're probably going to split into separate fleets and do different things. But the cap still does exist.
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#48 - 2014-12-27 22:53:29 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Say it as it was. When I wardecced the corp majority left. Those that was still in it logged on and stayed afk in station for hours never leaving. Including YOU.

Always remember that.

I got many wars I declare, you are more then welcome to join in as allies to "help" them.


In what game did that happen.? It wasn't EvE.
Are you guys talking about a different character of his or something? His current corp looks like an alt corp.
Vapor Ventrillian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-12-27 22:55:49 UTC
Interesting post...thankyou for it Smile

The Evil Overlord of Scope, self elected as all good overlords should be
Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
#50 - 2014-12-28 06:12:47 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:


Say it as it was. When I wardecced the corp majority left. Those that was still in it logged on and stayed afk in station for hours never leaving. Including YOU.

Always remember that.

I got many wars I declare, you are more then welcome to join in as allies to "help" them.


This total bullcrap again? You wardecced us because you got your panties in a twist over what I said on the forums. Our CEO hired some null sec friends to ally with us and you never showed up. We we ready but you hardly even logged on. There is not an ounce of truth in your little comment there. We've had this discussion in another thread sometime back and you said the same thing, and here I am again setting the record straight (you never replied back to me the last time). I'll ask again, do you enjoy my bio?
Cervix Thumper
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-12-28 13:40:59 UTC
Runner Caldear wrote:
Hi there, as with any game there is a natural progression for all players:Arrow

1. Start: Learn and skill up. get to know the pecking order, realize you don't stand a chance against more seasoned players
2. Novice: Learn some more, start balancing the wallet, start getting some better gear.....still getting killed easily...
3. Apprentice: Start to understand the bigger picture, know where not to go.....sometimes takes a risk....pays dearly.....
4. Mid stream: Can hold your own with same level players......smile knowingly at the nub questions......understand some of the Eve speak better......start to take on nil sec.
5. Old er gamer: Making name and kicking ass.........rolling in ISK.......local advice channel for newer players
6. Veteran: Deep understanding of the game and your own abilities, wise beyond the game.........teacher, mentor, guru....

And the game is structured like that too. The newer player does not have access to the higher skills or higher ISK making avenues. As is every society and corporation in real life, you have those with seniority and those without. And those that do not have it yet, will only understand that later in the game......this is not a game, it is a community, of which the virtual reality is very real.

Fly safe and learn,

Runner.Smile



The only game that I have tried that remotely resembles this is Elite Dangerous. There are no in game skills to acquire and learn, you have to learn them yourself via trial and error, and more error. Once you get comfortable with the basic principle of space flight and how to control your ship, you branch out and can explore, trade, combat etc.. At the time there was no training manual, no tutorial... just figure it out on your own and or ask older players.
Dracones
Tarsis Inc
#52 - 2014-12-29 17:00:31 UTC
There's very minimal vertical progression in Eve. A brand spanking newbie character is going to fly a frigate a lot worse than a 10 mil SP frigate flyer, but it doesn't take at all long to get into T2/faction fits and have a base level of skill in the combat skills needed to use it all.

The "percent better" gap in Eve between a new player and experienced one closes pretty damn fast, especially when you compare Eve against other MMOs. There's also very little barrier when it comes to gear. It's not like fantasy MMO number 27 where the guy that plays 24/7 has the l33t sword of p0wnage he farmed after killing bunny rabbits for 10k hours that does more damage than your tin sword and you'll never gain access to it.

You gain access to the good stuff pretty early on in Eve.
Equinnox Dethahal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2014-12-29 17:06:30 UTC
I hear the quickest way to success is to buy 80+ PLEX in jita, then put them into a rookie ship cargo and haul them to a different factional trade hub.
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