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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1201 - 2014-12-20 16:31:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


But hey, keep playing the killboard game like it means anything.



It's actually good, because in this forum section, having to fall back on killboard stats is the same as throwing an insult in other sections: It means that the poster knows he's wrong deep down and has to shore up his own confidence in some way. People with sound, logical arguments don't have to try to diminish their debate opponents by challenging their 'credentials' because their arguments are engouh to overcome opposition all by themselves.

(who knew being a member of a high school debate club would come in handy 25,000 years in the future while flying space ships? Big smile )

You and I (and others, like Rise) know the truth here: Some who are reacting negatively to the change are being reasonable and have no horse in the race, BUT, many others are just people who have invested so much (too much) time in succeeding in the game by relying on and understanding and exploitationcurrent mechanics and this change threatens to knock them off the Throne of Elite PVP (or even pve if you listen to the wormhole people crying about d-scan immunity despite the fact that covert cloaking is way worse).

It is a mistake to invest to heavily in learning the status quo to succeed in a game that has to be about change and redirection to survive. I don't like change just for change's sake, but I understand that good change is a good thing.

We can debate whether HAC resists + d-scan immunity is too much, but claiming that d-scan immunty is the end of the world and the comming of Recons Online is just the same hurf-blerf we always see what a players 'special interest' is threatened.
hellokittyonline
Holey Rolling Empire
#1202 - 2014-12-20 16:33:52 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?

And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow.

Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1203 - 2014-12-20 16:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
hellokittyonline wrote:
Here let me break down your response from a solo PvPers perspective so maybe you'll better understand the attitude that we're ******* TIRED OF.

CCP Rise wrote:
Just finished reading everything that was posted over night. Here's what I can update with at the moment:

  • Biggest concern at the moment is the added EHP. Making recons a more realistic fleet option next to T3 cruisers is good, making them too tanky in smaller situations where their ewar already gives them a lot of damage evasion may be too much. Not sure if change is needed but will keep looking at this and update again asap.

  • Because Nullblobs

    CCP Rise [* wrote:
    Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.


    Because **** solo and small gang PvPers they're a small portion of the playerbase anyways.

    CCP Rise [* wrote:
    The Pilgrim. Opinions seem mixed, gaining neut range is obviously nice but many of you still feel that giving up neut strength is too harsh, or that some other added power is needed (more damage for instance). Will get back to you on this as soon as possible but it's possible that we will make adjustments.
    .


    Because High-sec/Null-sec care-bear gankers.



    You are aware that displaying irrational prejudice against something (ie, you over-use of the term 'nullblobs' which you use in every post) is a turn off and hurts your argument right? Because it outs you as so blatantly biased that your opinon then means nothing.

    Just wanted to make sure you knew lol.
    hellokittyonline
    Holey Rolling Empire
    #1204 - 2014-12-20 16:36:42 UTC
    I'm actually pointing out the irrational prejudice of CCP but sure yea whatever.
    Jenn aSide
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #1205 - 2014-12-20 16:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
    hellokittyonline wrote:
    Delt0r Garsk wrote:
    I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?

    And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow.

    Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak.



    So now you will have to be smarter, do something else, bring friends, and adapt.

    No where does CCP say "you will be able to do the same thing the same way for ever". While not all change is good, some change has to happen for a game to stay vital and interesting. If having to change tactics pushes you out of your comfort zone, the problem isn't the change, it's the fact that you allowed yourself to have a comfort zone in a competative game in the 1st place.
    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #1206 - 2014-12-20 16:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


    But hey, keep playing the killboard game like it means anything.



    It's actually good, because in this forum section, having to fall back on killboard stats is the same as throwing an insult in other sections: It means that the poster knows he's wrong deep down and has to shore up his own confidence in some way. People with sound, logical arguments don't have to try to diminish their debate opponents by challenging their 'credentials' because their arguments are engouh to overcome opposition all by themselves.

    (who knew being a member of a high school debate club would come in handy 25,000 years in the future while flying space ships? Big smile )

    You and I (and others, like Rise) know the truth here: Some who are reacting negatively to the change are being reasonable and have no horse in the race, BUT, many others are just people who have invested so much (too much) time in succeeding in the game by relying on and understanding and exploitationcurrent mechanics and this change threatens to knock them off the Throne of Elite PVP (or even pve if you listen to the wormhole people crying about d-scan immunity despite the fact that covert cloaking is way worse).

    It is a mistake to invest to heavily in learning the status quo to succeed in a game that has to be about change and redirection to survive. I don't like change just for change's sake, but I understand that good change is a good thing.

    We can debate whether HAC resists + d-scan immunity is too much, but claiming that d-scan immunty is the end of the world and the comming of Recons Online is just the same hurf-blerf we always see what a players 'special interest' is threatened.



    Not even close. I would just like to point out that i have Recon and literally everything else to 5 in spaceship command. Ill fly whatever works. The problems i see come from how at the moment i have risk things to get content. With these recon changes i can effortlessly scout myself around and pick off targets with minimal effort risk or skill and a far greater conversion rate since people will get far less of a chance to run. My booster also has probes so im in the best possible position to exploit this. I dont disagree with this because it somehow spoils my game, i object because on larger scale fights where people have spies in each others fleets it makes no difference and the smaller scale things get the more OP it becomes.

    Instead of putting words into peoples mouths you should really listen to what they say since it seems you have quite a lot to learn about debating (being unjustifiably patronising isnt winning), and about eve pvp too.
    Delt0r Garsk
    Shits N Giggles
    #1207 - 2014-12-20 16:42:07 UTC
    hellokittyonline wrote:
    Delt0r Garsk wrote:
    I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?

    And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow.

    Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak.

    Not inside the plex, on the acceleration gate. Where we put our camps.

    AKA the scientist.

    Death and Glory!

    Well fun is also good.

    hellokittyonline
    Holey Rolling Empire
    #1208 - 2014-12-20 16:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: hellokittyonline
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    hellokittyonline wrote:
    Delt0r Garsk wrote:
    I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?

    And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow.

    Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak.



    So now you will have to be smarter, do something else, bring friends, and adapt.

    No where does CCP say "you will be able to do the same thing the same way for ever". While not all change is good, some change has to happen for a game to stay vital and interesting. If having to change tactics pushes you out of your comfort zone, the problem isn't the change, it's the fact that you allowed yourself to have a comfort zone in a competative game in the 1st place.


    So I shouldn't be able to play solo forever as a PvPer is that what you're saying? Or are you saying I shouldn't be able to actively look for fights as a solo PvPer and should be instead forced to sit in my own plex baiting to look for fights (in which case i'm still getting ganked by pilgrims)?

    What I assume your saying is I shouldn't limit my fighting to plexes? Do you know what happens when you try to fight on a gate -10? Oh so I just need to not be -10? Then why even have it if there's no way to continue playing once you're there (obviously -10 characters are into PvP).
    hellokittyonline
    Holey Rolling Empire
    #1209 - 2014-12-20 16:43:47 UTC
    Delt0r Garsk wrote:
    hellokittyonline wrote:
    Delt0r Garsk wrote:
    I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?

    And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow.

    Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak.

    Not inside the plex, on the acceleration gate. Where we put our camps.


    In which case i spam the gate and warp away on the other side
    Thanatos Marathon
    Moira.
    Villore Accords
    #1210 - 2014-12-20 16:51:28 UTC
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    We can debate whether HAC resists + d-scan immunity is too much, but claiming that d-scan immunty is the end of the world and the comming of Recons Online is just the same hurf-blerf we always see what a players 'special interest' is threatened.


    It is the combination that will make it Combat Recons online. They won't be over utilized for Structure fights, but very rarely is solo/micro/small gang fighting done at a POS, etc.

    At the end of the day I'll end up using Combat Recons like every other PVP pilot who has the SP. I also have a scout alt, and a combat prober so the world won't come crashing down for me, it's just sad.
    Jenn aSide
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #1211 - 2014-12-20 16:55:56 UTC
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:



    Not even close. I would just like to point out that i have Recon and literally everything else to 5 in spaceship command. Ill fly whatever works. The problems i see come from how at the moment i have risk things to get content. With these recon changes i can effortlessly scout myself around and pick off targets with minimal effort risk or skill and a far greater conversion rate since people will get far less of a chance to run.


    This is different from covert cloaking with no cloak deatcivation penalty on locking how exactly? This is the point that defeats entirley what you say, covert cloaks are WORSE than d-scan immunity.

    Quote:

    Instead of putting words into peoples mouths you should really listen to what they say since it seems you have quite a lot to learn about debating (being unjustifiably patronising isnt winning), and about eve pvp too.

    ]
    You do recall that is was YOU who started the ball rolling by trying to discredit people 'because killboard' right? No one is patronizing you, simply demonstrating why everythign you believe is measurably and demonstrably wrong.

    I predict this will be just like the Faction Battleship rebalance thread where people claimed that the Navy raven would be useless (ended up being even more popular for the things it's used for) or the pirate ship rebalance where people claimed the Rattlesnake with it's 'super drones' would suck....which is why you see null alliance have RATTLESNAKE FLEETS now because null alliances always make fleet comps out of ships that suck lol.

    I enjoyed the aftermaths of those discussions when reality proved the nay-sayers wrong (not that any of them ever admit it). I will enjoy the aftermath of this one when CCP implements this change, everything turns out fine and those of you so vocal in oppostion pretend like you never said anything Twisted
    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #1212 - 2014-12-20 17:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:



    Not even close. I would just like to point out that i have Recon and literally everything else to 5 in spaceship command. Ill fly whatever works. The problems i see come from how at the moment i have risk things to get content. With these recon changes i can effortlessly scout myself around and pick off targets with minimal effort risk or skill and a far greater conversion rate since people will get far less of a chance to run.


    This is different from covert cloaking with no cloak deatcivation penalty on locking how exactly? This is the point that defeats entirley what you say, covert cloaks are WORSE than d-scan immunity.

    Quote:

    Instead of putting words into peoples mouths you should really listen to what they say since it seems you have quite a lot to learn about debating (being unjustifiably patronising isnt winning), and about eve pvp too.

    ]
    You do recall that is was YOU who started the ball rolling by trying to discredit people 'because killboard' right? No one is patronizing you, simply demonstrating why everythign you believe is measurably and demonstrably wrong.

    I predict this will be just like the Faction Battleship rebalance thread where people claimed that the Navy raven would be useless (ended up being even more popular for the things it's used for) or the pirate ship rebalance where people claimed the Rattlesnake with it's 'super drones' would suck....which is why you see null alliance have RATTLESNAKE FLEETS now because null alliances always make fleet comps out of ships that suck lol.

    I enjoyed the aftermaths of those discussions when reality proved the nay-sayers wrong (not that any of them ever admit it). I will enjoy the aftermath of this one when CCP implements this change, everything turns out fine and those of you so vocal in oppostion pretend like you never said anything Twisted


    Pubquiz, which cov ops cloak has no deactivation delay. Im looking for a ship class and bonus points for telling me why on earth would i be bothered by one of them tackling me.

    Why are you even posting when you clearly dont have a full grasp of even the current mechanics?
    Thanatos Marathon
    Moira.
    Villore Accords
    #1213 - 2014-12-20 17:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    This is different from covert cloaking with no cloak deatcivation penalty on locking how exactly? This is the point that defeats entirley what you say, covert cloaks are WORSE than d-scan immunity.


    Not in FW space they aren't. Acceleration gates make all the difference in the world when it comes to getting intel on cloaky vs dscan immune.

    [Edit: That's without even talking about locking delay]
    Jenn aSide
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #1214 - 2014-12-20 17:07:30 UTC
    hellokittyonline wrote:


    So I shouldn't be able to play solo forever as a PvPer is that what you're saying? Or are you saying I shouldn't be able to actively look for fights as a solo PvPer and should be instead forced to sit in my own plex baiting to look for fights?

    What I assume your saying is I shouldn't limit my fighting to plexes? Do you know what happens when you try to fight on a gate -10? Oh so I just need to not be -10? Then why even have it if there's no way to continue playing once you're there (obviously -10 characters are into PvP).


    So low sec only has gates and plexes, it doesn't have moons, planets, a star and billions of kilometers of space between those things. Hell someone call CCP and tell them low sec is broken lol.

    This post is an example of a person rationalizing why their comfort zone MUST exist. People do this to convince themselves that they don't need to adapt because "there is only one reasnable way anyways, so I can't adapt even if I wanted to".

    D-scan immunity changes very little. It costs very little on many ships to lnclude a scan probe launcher that lets you detect ANY uncloaked ship.

    If d-scan immunity is so dangerous, how then do you deal with covert cloaked ships for which not amount of combat probes will help you.

    I think it was you who said that the cloaked ship has to decloak BEFORE you get in the plex, right? Well, if you have scan probes out where he can see them, nothing changes at all.

    Hell, you don't even have to scan, jsut launching the probes andhainvg them out where a Combat Recon pilot can see them on d-scan would cause enough psycoligical unertainty to give you an advantage. You and others would be able to think of these things if you weren't too invested in the status quo.

    Thanatos Marathon
    Moira.
    Villore Accords
    #1215 - 2014-12-20 17:11:12 UTC
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    hellokittyonline wrote:


    So I shouldn't be able to play solo forever as a PvPer is that what you're saying? Or are you saying I shouldn't be able to actively look for fights as a solo PvPer and should be instead forced to sit in my own plex baiting to look for fights?

    What I assume your saying is I shouldn't limit my fighting to plexes? Do you know what happens when you try to fight on a gate -10? Oh so I just need to not be -10? Then why even have it if there's no way to continue playing once you're there (obviously -10 characters are into PvP).


    So low sec only has gates and plexes, it doesn't have moons, planets, a star and billions of kilometers of space between those things. Hell someone call CCP and tell them low sec is broken lol.

    This post is an example of a person rationalizing why their comfort zone MUST exist. People do this to convince themselves that they don't need to adapt because "there is only one reasnable way anyways, so I can't adapt even if I wanted to".

    D-scan immunity changes very little. It costs very little on many ships to lnclude a scan probe launcher that lets you detect ANY uncloaked ship.

    If d-scan immunity is so dangerous, how then do you deal with covert cloaked ships for which not amount of combat probes will help you.

    I think it was you who said that the cloaked ship has to decloak BEFORE you get in the plex, right? Well, if you have scan probes out where he can see them, nothing changes at all.

    Hell, you don't even have to scan, jsut launching the probes andhainvg them out where a Combat Recon pilot can see them on d-scan would cause enough psycoligical unertainty to give you an advantage. You and others would be able to think of these things if you weren't too invested in the status quo.



    1. You can't cloak within 30 of the capture point of a FW plex.
    2. As an exercise Try shoehorning a combat probe launcher on a worm and tell me how it works out.
    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #1216 - 2014-12-20 17:11:22 UTC
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    hellokittyonline wrote:


    So I shouldn't be able to play solo forever as a PvPer is that what you're saying? Or are you saying I shouldn't be able to actively look for fights as a solo PvPer and should be instead forced to sit in my own plex baiting to look for fights?

    What I assume your saying is I shouldn't limit my fighting to plexes? Do you know what happens when you try to fight on a gate -10? Oh so I just need to not be -10? Then why even have it if there's no way to continue playing once you're there (obviously -10 characters are into PvP).


    So low sec only has gates and plexes, it doesn't have moons, planets, a star and billions of kilometers of space between those things. Hell someone call CCP and tell them low sec is broken lol.

    This post is an example of a person rationalizing why their comfort zone MUST exist. People do this to convince themselves that they don't need to adapt because "there is only one reasnable way anyways, so I can't adapt even if I wanted to".

    D-scan immunity changes very little. It costs very little on many ships to lnclude a scan probe launcher that lets you detect ANY uncloaked ship.

    If d-scan immunity is so dangerous, how then do you deal with covert cloaked ships for which not amount of combat probes will help you.

    I think it was you who said that the cloaked ship has to decloak BEFORE you get in the plex, right? Well, if you have scan probes out where he can see them, nothing changes at all.

    Hell, you don't even have to scan, jsut launching the probes andhainvg them out where a Combat Recon pilot can see them on d-scan would cause enough psycoligical unertainty to give you an advantage. You and others would be able to think of these things if you weren't too invested in the status quo.




    Thats like me saying you think communism sucks because you are too invested in the status quo.

    No, communism just sucks.

    Some things are just bad ideas.
    Joshua Milton Blahyi
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #1217 - 2014-12-20 17:11:42 UTC
    I am glad CCP was kind enough to release the counter to these recons before making these changes.

    No way confessor prices are going down to 40 mill anytime soon, there will be too much demand.

    Pilgrim really needs to be redone though. Being a weaker curse with a cloak is trash.
    hellokittyonline
    Holey Rolling Empire
    #1218 - 2014-12-20 17:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: hellokittyonline
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    hellokittyonline wrote:


    So I shouldn't be able to play solo forever as a PvPer is that what you're saying? Or are you saying I shouldn't be able to actively look for fights as a solo PvPer and should be instead forced to sit in my own plex baiting to look for fights?

    What I assume your saying is I shouldn't limit my fighting to plexes? Do you know what happens when you try to fight on a gate -10? Oh so I just need to not be -10? Then why even have it if there's no way to continue playing once you're there (obviously -10 characters are into PvP).


    So low sec only has gates and plexes, it doesn't have moons, planets, a star and billions of kilometers of space between those things. Hell someone call CCP and tell them low sec is broken lol.

    This post is an example of a person rationalizing why their comfort zone MUST exist. People do this to convince themselves that they don't need to adapt because "there is only one reasnable way anyways, so I can't adapt even if I wanted to".

    D-scan immunity changes very little. It costs very little on many ships to lnclude a scan probe launcher that lets you detect ANY uncloaked ship.

    If d-scan immunity is so dangerous, how then do you deal with covert cloaked ships for which not amount of combat probes will help you.

    I think it was you who said that the cloaked ship has to decloak BEFORE you get in the plex, right? Well, if you have scan probes out where he can see them, nothing changes at all.

    Hell, you don't even have to scan, jsut launching the probes andhainvg them out where a Combat Recon pilot can see them on d-scan would cause enough psycoligical unertainty to give you an advantage. You and others would be able to think of these things if you weren't too invested in the status quo.



    Are you blatantly not reading anything anyone is posting? Also its quite clear that you have no idea what you're talking about. First of all my algos/tristan/dessy/frig is not going to have the cpu for a probe launcher. Second what fights are going on at moons? None... or pos bashes... i'm not solo bashing a pos. And third the REASON that solo PvPers fight in plexes is not because that's all they know, it's because a plex has advantages for a solo player that open space does not (IE: you cannot warp to fleet mates outside or inside of a FW plex)

    I should not have to have an alt to play "solo" in this game.
    Jenn aSide
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #1219 - 2014-12-20 17:17:34 UTC
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:


    Pubquiz, which cov ops cloak has no deactivation delay. Im looking for a ship class and bonus points for telling me why on earth would i be bothered by one of them tackling me.


    So you have yet to meet an ASB Stealth bomber that could hold you long enough for something else to decloak and kill you. Got it.

    As i said, I get it, you don't like it. Tough for you, if history (of CCP and Rise) is the guide, this will happen. You choice is adapt or unsub.

    Khan Wrenth
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #1220 - 2014-12-20 17:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
    Okay, so I've only had time to read the first 29 pages of responses so far. And I think this entire thing is a very interesting topic indeed, from the top down. Lots of changes, lots of ideas, lots of excitement.

    That said, after taking in all that and processing all of the arguments for either side, I'd like to offer up my opinion now on one thing.

    The D-scan immunity. Yes, I saw the Dev post on page 38 that said it's staying. But I'd like to offer an idea, a perspective on what these ships do that might change a mind or two. Something to the combat recon that would serve it better instead of the d-scan immunity. It's a recon ship - any given race has two, so why don't we differentiate the roles more? The cloaky recon seems to be in a good spot overall with the upcoming changes. But with the combat recon, how's about we give it a role bonus for fitting an expanded core launcher plus signal strength on combat scanning probes?

    This will diverge the roles of the two ships in these ways. 1: Cloaky recon will be out and about looking for targets, or someone specific. It's quiet, it's discreet, and can covert cyno in buddies if it has to.

    The combat recon would be more forceful in its search. Being a sturdier and stronger ship with the coming upgrades, combine that with a better ability to fit and use combat scanners, and you have a ship that can aggressively hunt down prey. If we assume the removal of the d-scan immunity, this means that it is already more visible than its cloaky cousins, plus the explosion of combat scanner probes on the d-scan will be a further red alert to people in the area. Meaning it makes it easier for you to see them and get out of there, but only if you're paying attention. Because of his increased probe abilities, it's easier and faster for him to find YOU too. I'm imagining these things as inheriting the role of hunting down off-grid links, since they would then have the scanning power AND firepower to readily find and engage those command ships. Yes, other ships can scan down command ships which may or may not be made of glass depending on their fit, but smaller exploration frigates are not known for their massive firepower and you'd need a small army of them to take down a command ship before his reinforcements arrived.

    So each race will have a covert, quiet, sneaky recon vessel, and an aggressive bloodhound-esque hunter recon vessel.

    But hey that's just an idea. Maybe that's been presented in the other 30 pages I haven't gotten to yet (I will in due time, I have to get to sleep, then go to work, then head off for a short vacation so I won't be able to update myself on this topic for almost a week). No matter what happens with D-scan, I'm excited for the changes and even if there's a lot of voices opposing the d-scan immunity when it gets implemented, I'm certain in due time people will adapt and forget what all the noise was about in the first place.