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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1181 - 2014-12-20 14:52:13 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Just finished reading everything that was posted over night. Here's what I can update with at the moment:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.



  • What strong counter arguments, they are all chaff type HTFU cheer-leading or weak arguments, I was enticed back by the jump changes and the slight tilt towards role playing, but the D-scan immunity makes it certain death. I am not sure I will wait for your explanation before hitting the de-sub button, in fact damn it I am de-subbing now and I will put this as my reason. Its ill thought out and makes it even easier for the easy gank crowd, WTF are you doing!


    This might come a shock to the likes of you, but you aren't the only playerbase in EVE.

    These changes are beyond amazing.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.

    Verdis deMosays
    No.Mercy
    Triumvirate.
    #1182 - 2014-12-20 14:59:22 UTC
    I still would argue that the full-time d-scan immunity is a bit much. Make it disable when the CR is aligning or in warp, so that people have a chance to detect them at some point. Possibly make it a unique module?

    Scan Inhibition Generator: High slot, 1 pg, 10cpu. Provides immunity to directional scanners while active. Unable to be active while warping. Note: can only be fit to Combat Recons.

    Would behave like a cloak, with none of the disadvantages, and still make combat recons more appealing. I know they're one of the least flown ships in game, after EAFs. Would be nice to see them get some mclovins. After all, other than a curse, when was the last time you saw one in space?
    Thanatos Marathon
    Moira.
    Villore Accords
    #1183 - 2014-12-20 15:08:24 UTC
    Recons online here we go.

    Get ready for the majority of gangs to have combat recon points, webs, scrams, damps, neuts, and jams. There will be no reason to fly any other comp as a go to for lowsec.

    You like fighting larger gangs outnumbered by using nano fits? Good luck, you are web'd into the ground.
    You like fighting larger gangs outnumbered by using Remote Reps and strong tanks? Good luck, you are neuted and jammed.
    You enjoy soloing in cruisers in Medium FW plexes? Get ready to lose a lot of cruisers while you gather intel on every single pilot in the region that can fly combat recons, by warping into the plex and getting your ship blown the hell up.

    This change as it stands, and without knowing why they are implementing it, makes me very sad. Ishtar's Online was bad enough for PVPers, Combat Recons online will decimate many solo/small gang pvp options.
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #1184 - 2014-12-20 15:19:46 UTC
    Thanatos Marathon wrote:

    You like fighting larger gangs outnumbered by using nano fits? Good luck, you are web'd into the ground.
    You like fighting larger gangs outnumbered by using Remote Reps and strong tanks? Good luck, you are neuted and jammed.


    Honestly? Good. Both of those two things are incredibly no-fun for the opponent, they lead to binary fights in which you either have what you need to win or you just whelp helplessly.

    And you're crying the death of those things... because counterplay is actually possible now against either of them.

    I hate to tell you this, but the sky is not falling just because recons aren't unviable.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.

    hellokittyonline
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #1185 - 2014-12-20 15:20:30 UTC
    Verdis deMosays wrote:
    Would behave like a cloak, with none of the disadvantages, and still make combat recons more appealing. I know they're one of the least flown ships in game, after EAFs. Would be nice to see them get some mclovins. After all, other than a curse, when was the last time you saw one in space?

    I see them in low sec all the time, but that doesn't count because its not nullblobs. If they're not in nullblobs they're not in the game according to CCP.
    Thanatos Marathon
    Moira.
    Villore Accords
    #1186 - 2014-12-20 15:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Thanatos Marathon wrote:

    You like fighting larger gangs outnumbered by using nano fits? Good luck, you are web'd into the ground.
    You like fighting larger gangs outnumbered by using Remote Reps and strong tanks? Good luck, you are neuted and jammed.


    Honestly? Good. Both of those two things are incredibly no-fun for the opponent, they lead to binary fights in which you either have what you need to win or you just whelp helplessly.

    And you're crying the death of those things... because counterplay is actually possible now against either of them.

    I hate to tell you this, but the sky is not falling just because recons aren't unviable.


    Actually Kite and Counter Kite are used on a regular basis and enjoyed by many (I'll always get a giggle every time I think about killing a Garmur in a Derptron).
    RR gangs aren't as regular as they used to be, but still generate great fun because normally they are on grid till they either win or die.

    I hate to tell you this, but just because you don't understand the counters for various setups doesn't mean others don't. This change makes Combat recons a bit more than viable, it makes them OP in a massive way. That means they will be everywhere.
    Kalihira
    Ultramar Independent Contracting
    #1187 - 2014-12-20 15:26:39 UTC
    Gregor Parud wrote:
    Kalihira wrote:
    Dont critisize my post if you didn't read it properly..... I never said anything about the cloak reactivation delay chance to Force recons.


    Conceded.

    Still, a solo Rook is not a threat, it never was and it will never be. The second you come up with "but what if there's more" I'll counter with "then they can have a scout at the site entrance as well so they'll know when you warped and can uncloak".


    True, I have been killed like that once (actually there was a rifter baiting on the beacon of a medium fw plex), but that is a principal use of force recons.
    You said in one of your posts above that combat recons will not have the same tactical advantages as cloaked force recons. I, and other people with me, where merely pointing out that it does in a number of situations. They are stepping on the toes of force recons, not totally outclassing them though.
    I am happy to see that you do agree with that the dscan immunity is completely unneeded along with the tanking, fitting and cap boosts they are getting allready. As I said several posts back, they should be the EWAR equivalent of HACs. They will not have HAC lvl tanks as far as I can see, just the same resists (less armor/shield HP), which is fine since EWAR is tank too.
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #1188 - 2014-12-20 15:36:55 UTC
    Thanatos Marathon wrote:

    I hate to tell you this, but just because you don't understand the counters for various setups doesn't mean others don't.


    And I don't think you have a clue what I was talking about.

    Against a kite fleet, you either have the counter or you just don't take the fight. And it requires a very specific fleet comp to do so.

    That crowds out low skillpoint players(most notably newbies), and less established groups who can't manage the counter. Against reps, it's even worse since any damage you might do while fighting is erased.

    Those two comps you described crowd out potential for taking fights, since it's so binary. You either have it or you shouldn't take the fight in the first place. They are bad things.


    Quote:

    This change makes Combat recons a bit more than viable, it makes them OP in a massive way.


    How? By making them less than paper thin tank? That's been overdue for a long time. But what you really mean is that you can't see them beforehand, so you can take the one sided fight in your binary fleet comp.

    You want absolute certainty.

    Too damn bad.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.

    Jenn aSide
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #1189 - 2014-12-20 15:37:51 UTC
    Yahrr wrote:
    I like how people think that the d-scan immunity will help them when ratting in an anomaly.


    So you can't think far enough ahead to see what people would do with a ratting recon I see.

    In many systems, anomalies spawn in certain areas reliably. So, find a crap one, kill some ships, and BOOM every time you do another (good) anomaly, there are wrecks on scan... in multiple places. You don't even need to do that much as anoms tend to spawn near planets, if that planet has belts, just go clear the belts and wrecks on scan (most pvprs don't know that belt rats ar different from anom rats).

    And after you have been at it a while, there are wrecks all over anyways and they last for a couple hours. D-scan immunity and the fact that these 'ratting recons' can mount some 'gtfo ewar' will partially compensate for the slightly lower overall dps you can squeeze out of one of these new recons compared to proper hacs. The Curse will actually be king of the Ratting Recons because energy neuts slash an npcs 'chance to boost', making them more squishy (again compensating for the lower general dps).

    If you can't see how this is going to be awesome, you have to blind.

    Thanatos Marathon
    Moira.
    Villore Accords
    #1190 - 2014-12-20 15:46:55 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Thanatos Marathon wrote:

    I hate to tell you this, but just because you don't understand the counters for various setups doesn't mean others don't.


    And I don't think you have a clue what I was talking about.

    Against a kite fleet, you either have the counter or you just don't take the fight. And it requires a very specific fleet comp to do so.

    That crowds out low skillpoint players(most notably newbies), and less established groups who can't manage the counter. Against reps, it's even worse since any damage you might do while fighting is erased.

    Those two comps you described crowd out potential for taking fights, since it's so binary. You either have it or you shouldn't take the fight in the first place. They are bad things.


    Quote:

    This change makes Combat recons a bit more than viable, it makes them OP in a massive way.


    How? By making them less than paper thin tank? That's been overdue for a long time. But what you really mean is that you can't see them beforehand, so you can take the one sided fight in your binary fleet comp.

    You want absolute certainty.

    Too damn bad.


    Actually, their EWAR is balanced by their paper thin tanks. By improving their tanks they will already find their way into most fleets of 8 or more. Adding DSCAN immunity makes them so ridiculously usefull in solo/micro gang that their proliferation will wipe out many other comps (people just won't fly them).

    Also, derptrons are designed for newer pilots and are pretty good at catching kiters.
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #1191 - 2014-12-20 15:50:59 UTC
    Thanatos Marathon wrote:

    Actually, their EWAR is balanced by their paper thin tanks.


    Or, it was, before the last few ewar nerfs anyway. They are the intended long range counter to reps afterall, but somehow they have a third of their hitpoints or less.


    Quote:

    By improving their tanks they will already find their way into most fleets of 8 or more.


    Good. Having an entire ship class that was useless for anything but the training model for a T3 is a bad thing.


    Quote:

    Adding DSCAN immunity makes them so ridiculously usefull in solo/micro gang that their proliferation will wipe out many other comps (people just won't fly them).


    If those fleet comps are as toxic as kiting has become in this game, good.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.

    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #1192 - 2014-12-20 15:54:13 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Dracvlad wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Just finished reading everything that was posted over night. Here's what I can update with at the moment:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.



  • What strong counter arguments, they are all chaff type HTFU cheer-leading or weak arguments, I was enticed back by the jump changes and the slight tilt towards role playing, but the D-scan immunity makes it certain death. I am not sure I will wait for your explanation before hitting the de-sub button, in fact damn it I am de-subbing now and I will put this as my reason. Its ill thought out and makes it even easier for the easy gank crowd, WTF are you doing!


    This might come a shock to the likes of you, but you aren't the only playerbase in EVE.

    These changes are beyond amazing.


    Another advocate of the changes to recon dscanning. Another guy who has barely ever pvp'd.
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #1193 - 2014-12-20 15:57:15 UTC
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:

    Another advocate of the changes to recon dscanning. Another guy who has barely ever pvp'd.


    I'm pretty open about this character basically being a forum alt for the longest time. Besides, you don't get on killmails as logi, which is what Kaarous has been for a while now until I joined Devils.

    But hey, keep playing the killboard game like it means anything.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.

    Niskin
    League of the Lost
    #1194 - 2014-12-20 15:59:41 UTC
    People are freaking out in here like Combat Recons have been rebalanced to be Carriers with 5 Ishtars glued to them that just got d-scan immunity. Get a grip.

    If I'm in a wormhole combat site in a Drake and a solo Recon shows up, I'd call that an even fight, since I'm probably tanking sleepers too. If he has friends coming then I'm probably screwed.

    If I'm in a wormhole combat site in a Drake and a T3 cruiser shows up, I'm dead, probably before his friends even get there, assuming he even bothered to bring any.

    Not to mention that in both of these situations I have an escape option if they didn't pack a scram. A max skilled Lachesis would kill that option, unless the pilot wasn't paying attention when my MMJD went off.

    It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

    Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

    -MooMooDachshundCow

    Jenn aSide
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #1195 - 2014-12-20 16:13:45 UTC
    Niskin wrote:
    People are freaking out in here like Combat Recons have been rebalanced to be Carriers with 5 Ishtars glued to them that just got d-scan immunity. Get a grip.

    If I'm in a wormhole combat site in a Drake and a solo Recon shows up, I'd call that an even fight, since I'm probably tanking sleepers too. If he has friends coming then I'm probably screwed.

    If I'm in a wormhole combat site in a Drake and a T3 cruiser shows up, I'm dead, probably before his friends even get there, assuming he even bothered to bring any.

    Not to mention that in both of these situations I have an escape option if they didn't pack a scram. A max skilled Lachesis would kill that option, unless the pilot wasn't paying attention when my MMJD went off.


    The bolded part is so funny I had to blod it again. It's one of those "it's funny becuase it's true" moments lol. CCP, why you don't let me like his post 1 million tmes huh? Big smile

    People just aren't taking current conditions into account at all. It's like they are saying "OMG, now I will get tackled by a Curse I didn't see on D-scan (but could have seen if I had combat probes out) instead of the Pilgrim (that not even combat probes can pick up) that decloaked next to me, and that's terrible!!!"

    I've seen some really nonsense thinking here in Features and Ideas (I wonder if all those guys who said the Navy Raven will be crap after losing it's RoF bonus and utility slot are still around to claim this lol), but this reaction to a change (d-scan immunity) that is inherently weaker than something that already exists (Covert Cloaks) is mind boggling.
    Jenn aSide
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #1196 - 2014-12-20 16:15:20 UTC
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:


    Another advocate of the changes to recon dscanning. Another guy who has barely ever pvp'd.



    Hey look, another guy appealing to the authority of his killboard when killboards mean nothing (in pvp or otherwise).
    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #1197 - 2014-12-20 16:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:



    If those fleet comps are as toxic as kiting has become in this game, good.


    Kiting is toxic? Kiting, counter kiting, manual piloting, baiting, hiding assets and numbers etc are all strategies at make eve pvp what it is. Invisibility to scans and the already powerful ewar profile of recons circumvent the need for any traditional pvp skills.

    Saying that kiting locks low sp toons into certain death is stupid. Anyone with a mwd, scram and a mind to fit properly can have a go at a kite.

    Impling that recons are a panacea for low sp toons to escape the tedium of being killed by kiters is so dumb im amazed you said it since recons are not well known for their low sp demands. All this does is limit the number of viable min/max doctrines to one for most people who cant or dont want to just blob the **** out of their target. It also means that large parts of the game are very easily locked out for solo and micro gang regardless of ship/sp (unless you bring your own recons lol)

    You are all over the place in this thread and seem to be advocating for this as a generic ccp fanboy.

    Also, dont mistake me. I like all the changes to recons to bring them into use. Just the scan immunity has a knock on effect that is arbitrary and will be very tedious.

    Im sure someone like you would love to pvp by sitting somewhere and instalocking a frigate, neuting, jamming, pointing, and webbing it for an easy kill akin to a high sec gate camp but your disdain for kiting and pilot skill shines through in your earlier post and is really why you have no credibility.

    Another also, im sure that in larger engagement this feature will play a minor roll, the problem is when you scale the same effect down to micro and solo activities that its just easily gonna be tarded.
    Emilia Istis
    Dom Spokojnej Starosci - CBC Retirement Island
    MOSTLY AFK
    #1198 - 2014-12-20 16:17:12 UTC
    d-scan immunity is kinda OP,
    very difficult gameplay becomes even more difficult. (from the point of view of potential victims)
    in some situations that come to my mind is better than a cloak.

    Solution: maybe if it were possible to see it on the d-scan at a small distance, for example, less than 100.000 km or one million
    or maybe give them Cloake without Delay
    or a bonus to T2 cloak
    or they can stay in the cloak only for a limited time, then wait the appropriate cooldown

    now will arise very specific ships with a very big advantage, and a very small amount disadvantages, and the whole time talking about one. and yet he can have 10 thousand closest friends :)

    d-scan immunity is a very cool thing, but probably not in the game where you lose something, you lose it forever (too hardcore)
    hellokittyonline
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #1199 - 2014-12-20 16:25:33 UTC
    Here let me break down your response from a solo PvPers perspective so maybe you'll better understand the attitude that we're ******* TIRED OF.

    CCP Rise wrote:
    Just finished reading everything that was posted over night. Here's what I can update with at the moment:

  • Biggest concern at the moment is the added EHP. Making recons a more realistic fleet option next to T3 cruisers is good, making them too tanky in smaller situations where their ewar already gives them a lot of damage evasion may be too much. Not sure if change is needed but will keep looking at this and update again asap.

  • Because Nullblobs

    CCP Rise [* wrote:
    Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.


    Because **** solo and small gang PvPers they're a small portion of the playerbase anyways.

    CCP Rise [* wrote:
    The Pilgrim. Opinions seem mixed, gaining neut range is obviously nice but many of you still feel that giving up neut strength is too harsh, or that some other added power is needed (more damage for instance). Will get back to you on this as soon as possible but it's possible that we will make adjustments.
    .


    Because High-sec/Null-sec care-bear gankers.
    Delt0r Garsk
    Shits N Giggles
    #1200 - 2014-12-20 16:29:07 UTC
    I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?

    And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow.

    AKA the scientist.

    Death and Glory!

    Well fun is also good.