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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1121 - 2014-12-20 05:10:18 UTC
Lvzbel Ixtab wrote:
DFA200 wrote:
Major Margret McMurphy wrote:
This non-detectable recon ships on dscan is nothing more than catering to the pvp player and is pure crap and should not be allowed. This change will make WH mining impossible and expensive.


Yes, and they also bring two of the most uncounterable, frustrating and cheap mechanics in the game - neuts and ECM.


It will affect pvpers by not knowing what are we against specially in small gang pvp where having a combat prober is not viable


Every small gang should have a combat prober with them. If you don't, you are simply unprepared. It is the number one weakness for most roaming gangs. Every home defense gang should have them readily available.

I cannot count the number of times I have watched every other ratter in my system dock up or POS up when the first hostile comes into local, while I happily run even the crappiest complex, knowing that unless they scanned it down hours beforehand, when I wasn't around, they cannot find me unless they drop probes.

Or, assume I am the sort of person who likes to have off-grid links (I am). You can take that huge bonus away from me by dropping combat probes. But most people won't. And that character will happily boost me and all my friends without any fear whatsoever. Because when you formed your gang, you decided that one more DPS ship or one more tackler was more important than a decent combat prober.

The choice is yours… be effective, or suck.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Cade Windstalker
#1122 - 2014-12-20 05:25:33 UTC
Just wanted to say I'm loving the look of these changes and I'm super excited to see this class getting some much needed love. Generally the most common place to find Recons has been in high-sec griefer wars hunting T1 frigates and Cruisers. Will be nice to see them get some real use in combat with these changes. ;)
Fairfax Narmolaya
Beach Boys
The Minions.
#1123 - 2014-12-20 05:37:35 UTC
Wormhole guy here.

Wonderfull changes.

Im looking forward to finally fly Recons as I love to scout and hunt and mainly support.
Perhaps carebears and small corps will leave WH as they will find hard to live in that harsh environment. Good.
If they are still looking for a place to live and own - Null Sec still looks pretty empty in some parts. Enough space for everyone.
Wormhole is about teamwork, so organised corporations will adapt to changes very easly with no tears, but happy face.

Sorry for FW, but again, find new tactics and solutions. Perhaps group together, form a gang and face the enemy. Simple as that.


Fly safe, recons are out there... ;)





elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#1124 - 2014-12-20 05:39:59 UTC
May I suggest a few slot changes for some Recons to assist their racial profile:

- Curse gets changed to a 5 / 5 / 5 slot layout -> armor tank

- Rook gets +150 powergrid -> hams + shields possible now

- Arazu gets changed to a 4 / 5 / 5 slot layout and +100 powergrid -> armor tank

- Lachesis gets changed to a 5 / 5 / 5 slot layout -> another armor tank

................

Here I am not sure, so no silly comments, yes? You can however help me making changes you would like to see

- Rapier gets changed to a 4 / 7 / 3 slot layout for shields (?)

- Huginn gets changed to a 4 / 7 / 4 slot layout and +100 powergrid for the arty-folks (?)

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

asmi84
Keepers of the New World
#1125 - 2014-12-20 05:40:42 UTC
Being a low-class wormholer myself, this dscan immunity is a dream came true to me. Every time I run an anomaly I wish there would be some way to hide what I'm doing, and this is it! HAC-class tank should allow running low-class WH anomalies a breeze. Because no hunter ever going through anoms just to see if there's someone there - they all use dscan.
THIS is why dscan immunity is grossly OP. It allows pilot to _do things_ while being offgrid-cloaked.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#1126 - 2014-12-20 05:45:10 UTC
They way to fix the d-scan thing is to lower the scan resolution of the recon ship. It gives it an inherent disadvantage for the permanent pseudo-cloak. The pilot can be on grid locking the target but it will just take longer to lock. If the recon pilot wants to speed up lock times then they sacrifice something to do so.

The way I see it is that it has a good and bad side and so it equals out. In FW you may not be able to see what is on the other side of the gate coming in but they can't either. Gankers may be able to warp an anom or belt but that doesn't stop the gankie from having a recon sitting there with them as anit-gank. As it is, if there is a name in local but nothing on d-scan the ship is docked or cloaked; soon it will be docked, cloaked or a recon.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1127 - 2014-12-20 05:48:20 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:

You guys say that like that situation doesn't prevent fights. I assure you it does. I have heard the phrase "These guys always have Falcon alts" prevent a fight quite a lot.


Working as intended.

If he wanted to fight you without his Falcon alts, he would. If you really wanted to kill him, you'd bring the right counter.

Sun Tzu says you should know your enemy. So we see a hostile and look up his killboard stats. Then people know when they see FT Diomedes in local, that he probably isn't much of a threat unless you are a POS or sovereignty structure. They know that he lost a Scimitar the other day, but hasn't been seen in a sub capital ship since then. They know that several months ago he lost a nicely-fit ratting Ishtar to a roaming gang. They see that he is normally active in USTZ and prefers to fly with certain other pilots. They plan accordingly. The really savvy ones will examine his corp history, forum posting history, and see what else they can learn before they even engage.

If you are afraid of the other guy's Falcon or Scimitar or OGB and he is afraid to fight without it, the only way either of you will get a fight is non-consensually.

Last time I checked, Eve was all about non-consensual PVP. Outside of tournaments and pre-arranged duels the only consensual PVP in Eve is when the other side doesn't recognize "It's a trap!" until it is too late. We have to use operational maneuver and misdirection to gain surprise. What a horrible thought!

First rule of combat is: don't let the enemy dictate the terms of the fight. The fair fight is the one you walk away from. If you refuse to bring the counter to my fleet composition, that is your problem, not mine. If you don't want to fight my fleet composition, then I have to find a way to trick you into it, or make you do it against your will. That is the essence of combat as I understand it - finding a way to impose your will on your adversary. Not everyone will have that attitude. And that's fine too, in this lovely game called Eve.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#1128 - 2014-12-20 06:07:56 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5325934#post5325934

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Frigate holes and now Recons. Never going to live in a worm hole ever again.

They should be introducing an auto D-scan (slower frequency) and have the manual one (as quick as it is now)

The reason that Recons are going to be so bad?

Scan out holes
Take a break
New in hole appears
They scan your system
Return from break
Go ratting or mining, etc
D-scan, D-scan, D-scan
No blip appears before they cloak.
ARGH red right next to me!
Align! Alig....
More reds arrive
Dead.

D-scan is your life in w-space.

We need a new meme, "Do you even lift, bro?" and replace it with "Do you even play?" then give feedback with that linked to things like this recon change.

Serving up more easy kills for invaders. Roll

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1129 - 2014-12-20 06:24:08 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
May I suggest a few slot changes for some Recons to assist their racial profile:

- Curse gets changed to a 5 / 5 / 5 slot layout -> armor tank

- Rook gets +150 powergrid -> hams + shields possible now

- Arazu gets changed to a 4 / 5 / 5 slot layout and +100 powergrid -> armor tank

- Lachesis gets changed to a 5 / 5 / 5 slot layout -> another armor tank

................

Here I am not sure, so no silly comments, yes? You can however help me making changes you would like to see

- Rapier gets changed to a 4 / 7 / 3 slot layout for shields (?)

- Huginn gets changed to a 4 / 7 / 4 slot layout and +100 powergrid for the arty-folks (?)


So thoughtful <3

I always thought rook needed more PG too, think it can only fit a single LSE (though it can fit 1 invuln/em w/ single LSE). I think curse should stay shield tanked, or gimped armor tank. Its got a very strong ewar bonus, tank should be at a disadvantage.

think i'm ok with rapier slot layout currently 4/6/4. Debating on your proposed change on huginn.. would have more tank, but would it have the grid for it, even with the PG addition. Sad thing is, even with an extra 100 PG, 4 720's would still use up all the grid for the most part.

4 720's = 892 PG, even with +100 grid, you'd only have 40ish PG left over for MWD/tank/EWAR with max skills. So.. guess its another minny ship with 650's or 3 PG mods for arty to fit...
Nimrias
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1130 - 2014-12-20 06:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrias
I'm all for interesting changes.

Instead of giving 1 type of ship dscan invisibility, why not give all the ships the ability to precisely locate and warp to other uncloaked ships within a certain range without the need of losing a highslot to a probe launcher? (I mean, come on, what century are we flying around in?) That sounds like a much better idea. Then folks that want to shoot each other can find each other.

On the other hand, I am looking forward to recon fleets being a thing again!
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1131 - 2014-12-20 06:45:07 UTC
I still don't get why the Curse has 6 mids and 4 lows. It's Amarr and Khanid, it should have the same 5 mid/5 low arrangement as the pilgrim, because you know, armour.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#1132 - 2014-12-20 06:51:14 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
...So thoughtful <3

I always thought rook needed more PG too, think it can only fit a single LSE (though it can fit 1 invuln/em w/ single LSE). I think curse should stay shield tanked, or gimped armor tank. Its got a very strong ewar bonus, tank should be at a disadvantage.

think i'm ok with rapier slot layout currently 4/6/4. Debating on your proposed change on huginn.. would have more tank, but would it have the grid for it, even with the PG addition. Sad thing is, even with an extra 100 PG, 4 720's would still use up all the grid for the most part.

4 720's = 892 PG, even with +100 grid, you'd only have 40ish PG left over for MWD/tank/EWAR with max skills. So.. guess its another minny ship with 650's or 3 PG mods for arty to fit...


That is why I was proposing this. I may not agree with everything but that doesn't mean I don't listen to you Smile

The huginn change was with 650's arties in mind. Should be enough 'volley' power but I am unclear on this.

What I am sure about is that I would like to armor tank the Curse. It is possible now but shield + Amarr What? ??

Oh and yes, I did carefully consider the OP in my proposal so it wouldn't sound 'off'. We may or not disagree on a few points and preferences but I wanted to keep it in bay so it might be considered.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1133 - 2014-12-20 07:10:43 UTC
Wormhole dweller. These changes are glorious!
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1134 - 2014-12-20 08:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

You have a bunch of people with 15 kills in their lifetime or at maxumym 15 kills per month saying this change is awesome,


First supporter of d-scan immunity for recons after i posted the above (and every other one ive checked is pretty much the same level of 'i basically dont ever pvp but will when im gonna be at zero risk'



Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1135 - 2014-12-20 08:07:49 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
i think im gonna take a break in the new year.

Eve may not be dying, but it certainly is about to have brain damage.

You have a bunch of people with 15 kills in their lifetime or at maxumym 15 kills per month saying this change is awesome, and lots of people who i recognise that fight day in-day out who correctly say d-scan invisibility is idiotic. All the while the word of these guys who went into low sec once to pvp is considered equal to the hardcore pvp guys who create content day in day out.

Absolutely stupid.

I wonder if this is why greyscale quit.



Irrelevant. You do not need 1 billion kills to your your brian and make a logical annalisis . As was poitned several times. With exception of FW plexes this exact behavior can be mimmicked by thigns like Stratios and a pilto with brains to disengage the cloak some 100 thousand KM before landing.

And the d-scan immunity is still FAR less powerful than a cloak ship well piloted.

And yet the huge issues people predict do not happen.

To emualte the same thing in FW the stratios /rapier/arazu etc pilot would have to keep its dscan at a range shorter than the range to the accell gate by a tiny bit... then uncloak as soon as someone starts to cross. That is something that will be made easier with eh new d-scan immunity.

But GOOOD pilots, really good pilots capable of using their brain, not peopel that think they are good pilots because they spend 10 hours per day playing, already can achieve basically the same effect with any cloak warper.

YET.. the number of stratios and alike ruining small scale pvp is what? Almost non existent.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1136 - 2014-12-20 08:09:46 UTC
Galphii wrote:
I still don't get why the Curse has 6 mids and 4 lows. It's Amarr and Khanid, it should have the same 5 mid/5 low arrangement as the pilgrim, because you know, armour.



In ages long past al lkhanid ships were shield tankers. When CCP rebalanced and re rolled all khanid ships they forgot 1... the curse.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1137 - 2014-12-20 08:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
i think im gonna take a break in the new year.

Eve may not be dying, but it certainly is about to have brain damage.

You have a bunch of people with 15 kills in their lifetime or at maxumym 15 kills per month saying this change is awesome, and lots of people who i recognise that fight day in-day out who correctly say d-scan invisibility is idiotic. All the while the word of these guys who went into low sec once to pvp is considered equal to the hardcore pvp guys who create content day in day out.

Absolutely stupid.

I wonder if this is why greyscale quit.



Irrelevant. You do not need 1 billion kills to your your brian and make a logical annalisis . As was poitned several times. With exception of FW plexes this exact behavior can be mimmicked by thigns like Stratios and a pilto with brains to disengage the cloak some 100 thousand KM before landing.

And the d-scan immunity is still FAR less powerful than a cloak ship well piloted.

And yet the huge issues people predict do not happen.

To emualte the same thing in FW the stratios /rapier/arazu etc pilot would have to keep its dscan at a range shorter than the range to the accell gate by a tiny bit... then uncloak as soon as someone starts to cross. That is something that will be made easier with eh new d-scan immunity.

But GOOOD pilots, really good pilots capable of using their brain, not peopel that think they are good pilots because they spend 10 hours per day playing, already can achieve basically the same effect with any cloak warper.

YET.. the number of stratios and alike ruining small scale pvp is what? Almost non existent.


As a high sec ganker you clearly dont understand the issues here. I dont recal anyone that is complaining about these changes complaining about the strateos. In fact i dont remember anyone at all that i know complaining about it at any point.

So bad strawman is bad.

In all scenarios that i fight in, a ship immune to dscan is very much worse than a cloaky ship, and even though i dont live in wormholes, my limited understanding of them is that dscan immunity will be more powerful there than it will be where i am in FW.

Arbitrary mechanics to make up for people who are terrible at eve and cant hide their fleet/bait a fight are a very bad move and encourage an undesirable meta that will be to some degree compulsory for all.

As you correctly said, there are mechanics that already allow people to emulate this effectwith less powerful force recons, so encouraging this type of activity my taking the skill out of it and giving people ships close to ahac performace to do it with is demented.

TBH im less concerned with plex campers than i am small roaming gangs of recons that warp into plexes with zero warning and create a 180km killzone.

At least with the current force recons the player has a chance to spy the recon entering systems and plexes, hence a possible counter before a pointless gank.
Solaris Vex
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1138 - 2014-12-20 08:30:47 UTC
The Rook desperately needs an ECM optimal range bonus to be useful in a fleet fight. Right now its far more expensive then a blackbird and must get suicidally close to an enemy fleet to apply jams.

The Lachesis has a similar problem. The Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness is basically useless, no one will fit damps on a Lachesis when the Celestis does the job better at a fraction of the cost.

The same goes for the Amarr recons tracking disrupter bonus and to a lesser degree the Minmatars target painting. The combat recons are supposed to be force multipliers for their fleet but most simply do not have the range to apply their ewar.
Helene Fidard
CTRL-Q
#1139 - 2014-12-20 08:46:02 UTC
I personally would be more supportive of this idea of it weren't only combat recons getting this UI sorcery. Having a single class of ship which follows different rules from every other ship in the game seems like poor design (I thought everything was supposed to be intuitive now?), but if dscan immunity was more generally a thing, I guess I couldn't really argue with that.

Hey! I don't know about you

but I'm joining CTRL-Q

Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#1140 - 2014-12-20 08:56:59 UTC
If the D-Scan inmunity thing turns out to be having more negative effects than expected, they can always take it out on the next release. Or even better, consider one of the alternatives presented here.

Some people have suggested reasonable alternatives, such as said inmunity being off when warping, or it being toogleable at the expense of something else. I think those could be interesting if the current iteration of inmunity does not turn out well (although I'm confident it won't be that bad, as happened with the many previous changes to the game that spawned so much heated up discussion and at the end weren't that bad).