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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Author
Esmanpir
Raccoon's with LightSabers
#1101 - 2014-12-20 01:54:06 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.
  • Sorry, but that "great job" is done by people who *obviously* have no idea about how solo and smallscale PvP especially in Lowsec works. I have not seen any "strong arguments" that have not been proven totally wrong by simple examples, if you have found some, please name them!


    +1
    Boomrider
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #1102 - 2014-12-20 02:22:53 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:


    Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

    The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

    I would be more worried with this mechanic that people have to spend a lot of time running probe scans when they really don't want to be than that they are avoiding engagements because of the possibility of Recons. I don't think this will be a problem but we'll have to wait and see.


    There have been a lot of responses to your tirade, so I won't bother with dissecting the fallacity of your assumptions and go straight for the bottom line:

    1) Judging by how fiercely you're defending the dscan immunity, was it your idea in the 1st place ?
    2) Have you bothered asking the actual players how they feel about the upcoming changes, rather than just smugly announcing it ?
    3) Who do you think pays your salary ? Hint - it's us the players, the ones with the active subscription. We're the paying customers and our opinion matters.

    Why am I so aggressive about it ? Because it seems that for every single positive change there are at least 2 ridiculously negative ones. Example - more k-k WHs was probably the greatest thing CCP introduced in years, but it just had to be offset with the WH spawn range change and the rabidly spawning frig-sized WHs. These badly thought-out changes do not promote conflict, they just induce more headache when dealnig with trivial things. Maybe it's time to start actually listening to what the players (the ones who are paying your salary, remember ?) are saying, instead of stubbornly defending your ideas, no matter how bad they are.
    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #1103 - 2014-12-20 02:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
    i think im gonna take a break in the new year.

    Eve may not be dying, but it certainly is about to have brain damage.

    You have a bunch of people with 15 kills in their lifetime or at maxumym 15 kills per month saying this change is awesome, and lots of people who i recognise that fight day in-day out who correctly say d-scan invisibility is idiotic. All the while the word of these guys who went into low sec once to pvp is considered equal to the hardcore pvp guys who create content day in day out.

    Absolutely stupid.

    I wonder if this is why greyscale quit.
    Captain Davison
    Malachi Keep Detachments
    #1104 - 2014-12-20 02:27:24 UTC
    If there MUST be D-scan immunity, it should be a toggleable mode, like the Tac Destroyers. Turn it on, but take a serious tradeoff, like passive targeting only (massively reducing lock times/tracking) and a massive drop in power levels across the board as your ship diverts power into emissions control to keep from showing up on scans. Certainly, allow the pilot to keep some fire control and activities compared to a cloaked ship, but as everyone else says, it's too much to have D-Scan Immunity AND full combat capability.

    Idea: For D-Scan immunity, you have to kill outgoing emissions. Alright, so to trade off for that mode, you lose shields (bright flaming power source! What is that!), active targeting (you have to rely on your target targeting you to track their sensor emissions) or extremely limited targeting (single target), and something like a massively reduced capacitor regen as to keep your powerplant signature low you're running far below rated combat specs. And, you have to power back up in sequence. Maybe you'll get your sensors back up first, then your shields start regenerating alongside your capacitor regen rate increasing.

    Make it useful, but tricky to pull off successfully, with timing that requires precise piloting, a bit of luck, and skill in knowing exactly when to fire up again for the coming battle.
    Zappity
    Kurved Trading
    #1105 - 2014-12-20 02:55:30 UTC
    Onslaughtor wrote:
    Since you seem set on d scan immunity, lets at least add a fun and more interesting way to get intel other than d scan.

    Core scout probes.
    Basically combat probes that fit inside core launchers, doesn't allow you to get a warp but lets you see what is hiding out there.

    Depending on balance it would make a fun addition, large range scout probes could be used to check far out gates quickly, and gather fundamental intel. Also being used in a team with combat probes would let you get very percise locations on enemy ships with out nessisarily giving away you are looking for them.

    Interesting. I think there needs to be a broader discussion about intel. I would very much like to see more ways to mess with the current perfect intel (local, d-scan, watchlists) and perfect counters to intel (cloaking). Probes which only provide partial intel would be a reasonable counter to anti-intel tools like d-scan immunity. I think this should also extend to cover loaking because that is extremely powerful.

    Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

    Greygal
    Redemption Road
    Affirmative.
    #1106 - 2014-12-20 02:58:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Greygal
    Blanket-stating dscan immunity is staying without change negates the purpose of asking us for our opinions, and there have been a LOT of good arguments on both sides. I hope your stating that dscan immunity is staying is not meant to mean that you are not considering ways to better BALANCE this immunity, to address the very real concerns being brought up here.

    Because the concerns raised about how out of balance dscan immunity is on these ships are very real and valid. Please do not ignore all that has been stated already.

    For me, the issue with dscan immunity is that there is NO drawback to it, no "interesting choices" created by choosing to fit for the bonus or not (because you don't have to fit for it, it's already there). It gives way too much intel and power to the recon pilot without any counterbalance to it.

    The recon pilot will always know you are there, will always know when you are probing them, and can quickly adapt without ANY drawbacks or penalty's or RISK at all.

    At least a cloaked pilot can't instantly land on you and lock you up - there is always a slight delay - and a cloaked pilot has to be careful about when and where they chose to decloak. These are interesting choices and piloting decisions.

    Right now, any ship can be dscan immune by simply fitting a cloak. There are, of course, drawbacks to cloaks, but the CHOICE of using a cloak creates interesting gameplay decisions.

    There is a much simpler way to make the recons more interesting: Give them ALL the ability to fit covert cloaks. You achieve the goal of making the recons much more interesting, yet still provide some choices, drawbacks, advantages, and more.

    Or at least make dscan immunity a module that can only be fit on these specific recons. At least that way there is a fitting decision for it.

    We already have Ishtars Online, do we really want Eve to be Ishtars and Recons Online?

    What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

    Free weekly public roams & monthly NewBro new player roams!

    Visit Redemption Road or join mailing list REDEMPTION ROAMS for information

    Gwydion Voleur
    Anarchic Exploration
    #1107 - 2014-12-20 02:58:08 UTC
    Morwen Lagann wrote:
    Pilgrim without its neut amount bonus? One word: Ugh.

    If you absolutely must put a range bonus on it, make it a small one and keep the amount one. Don't neuter the thing it was good at. With this change it's just a weak Curse with a cloak. Which isn't all that big a ~thing~ with the whole "invisible to d-scan" bonus that you want to give to combat recons. With these changes there'd be even fewer reasons to fly a Pilgrim than there are right now.


    This.

    One of the few great things about the Pilgrim was the neut amount bonus. With a probe launcher and a cloak there are only 2 highs left for neuts already. Having that equal 4 neuts was what made having a Pilgrim uncloak on you in scram range one of those "oh crap" moments in EvE when you knew you were in big trouble. With only regular neuting strength this is completely lost and many more ships will have enough cap to get away or fight their way out. Please reconsider this. Maybe give it the old Nos effect instead like was done with the Ashimmu if you think it needs a tweak. At least then we could free up a mid for Ewar as the mandatory cap booster could be eliminated..

    Also, I share the concerns about the directional scan changes for Combat Recons in terms of the effect on wormhole pilots. As someone else said, this is why we have covert cloaks.
    Caldari 5
    D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
    Affirmative.
    #1108 - 2014-12-20 03:39:50 UTC
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Caldari 5 wrote:
    Wow I hadn't looked at F&ID in a couple of days and all of a sudden massive thread on Recons. Haven't read the thread yet, but have read the blue posts.

    CCP Rise any chance of adding the PvE bonus for Virus Strength to the Covert Recons? I had mentioned this to you in person at Eve Down Under.

    I don't see why it has to be only covert recons?

    I agree that it would be nice to see them get a +10 virus strength for hacking

    I'd actually like to see the Virus Strength Bonus applied to the entire line of Covert Ships, it's already on the Covert Ops Frigs, and the SoE Faction Ships, adding it to the Covert Recons and Black Ops just makes sense, as being something that is on a line of ships and natural progression :)

    I suppose it could be added to the combat recons, however it doesn't make quite as much sense.
    Squatdog
    State Protectorate
    Caldari State
    #1109 - 2014-12-20 03:41:27 UTC
    As someone who has been flying Recons of all types in PVP over the last five years, I have to say that making Combat Recons undetectable approaches 'Loot-Spew' in terms of stupid ideas that will probably be rescinded.

    Combat Recons will be ridiculously imbalanced in FW plexes and WH space.

    Want to be undetectable on D-Scan? Fly a cloaky recon instead.
    Greymist
    CollapseTrap
    #1110 - 2014-12-20 03:58:04 UTC
    A lot of Crying about not being able to see a ship on D-scan. I love the idea from a PVP perspective. From a PVE perspective, it adds a bit more challenge to the game. easily overcome by working as a team and watching the incoming and static WHs in the system.

    Can't wait to go hunting :)

    Good job CCP... Not going to make everyone happy but they will do as they always do... GET OVER IT!!!

    Happy hunting everyone
    Cardinal T
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #1111 - 2014-12-20 04:03:42 UTC
    Hi CCP

    Old player here returning as you had improved a lot of stuff so I decided to try it out, and I was enjoying exploration.

    So, I would just like to say that the D scan immunity pretty much means that you are stark raving mad.

    Quote:
    Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.


    Yes "promoting PVP" by suckering people into fights they can't possibly win and probably wont even get a shot off by having the game actively lie to them. Sounds as "fun" as a knee to the groin and reminds me of the thrill and excitement of Logon traps.

    Other than that fair changes to Recons, but the Pilgrim needs a boost to Nuet power.
    Squatdog
    State Protectorate
    Caldari State
    #1112 - 2014-12-20 04:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Squatdog
    Greymist wrote:
    A lot of Crying about not being able to see a ship on D-scan. I love the idea from a PVP perspective. From a PVE perspective, it adds a bit more challenge to the game. easily overcome by working as a team and watching the incoming and static WHs in the system.

    Can't wait to go hunting :)

    Good job CCP... Not going to make everyone happy but they will do as they always do... GET OVER IT!!!

    Happy hunting everyone


    If there's one thing I trust on matters related to PVP , it's the opinion of someone with a 180-121 kill/loss record.
    Ford Crendaven
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #1113 - 2014-12-20 04:13:56 UTC
    Hi CCP Rise,

    Would you at least consider that the immunity to DSCAN be effective after a delay on entering a system or wormhole. Why isn't it a module? Then pilots decide the trade off from immunity to more slots available? There would be an activation delay.

    Everything in the game is supposed to be balanced and the balance on DSCAN is? You have created a new super heavy tackler that can basically jump in a wormhole, warp to anom, point and wait for backup. Large wormhole corps are going to be flying these in great numbers in the future.

    Cheers,

    Ford

    CCP Rise


    wrote:
    Quote:

    I can tell you what will happen most likely:
    - Less fights because people are risk averse
    - A 2nd account with a Prober at all times will be must, not an option.


    I think this is a complex debate and I'm sure that none of us understand player behavior completely, but my experience is actually the opposite of what you're saying.

    Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

    The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

    I would be more worried with this mechanic that people have to spend a lot of time running probe scans when they really don't want to be than that they are avoiding engagements because of the possibility of Recons. I don't think this will be a problem but we'll have to wait and see.

    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #1114 - 2014-12-20 04:15:49 UTC
    So does anyone have the numbers on the updated tank for some of the combat recons?
    Verdis deMosays
    Stay Frosty.
    A Band Apart.
    #1115 - 2014-12-20 04:16:18 UTC
    Captain Davison wrote:
    If there MUST be D-scan immunity, it should be a toggleable mode, like the Tac Destroyers. Turn it on, but take a serious tradeoff, like passive targeting only (massively reducing lock times/tracking) and a massive drop in power levels across the board as your ship diverts power into emissions control to keep from showing up on scans. Certainly, allow the pilot to keep some fire control and activities compared to a cloaked ship, but as everyone else says, it's too much to have D-Scan Immunity AND full combat capability.

    Idea: For D-Scan immunity, you have to kill outgoing emissions. Alright, so to trade off for that mode, you lose shields (bright flaming power source! What is that!), active targeting (you have to rely on your target targeting you to track their sensor emissions) or extremely limited targeting (single target), and something like a massively reduced capacitor regen as to keep your powerplant signature low you're running far below rated combat specs. And, you have to power back up in sequence. Maybe you'll get your sensors back up first, then your shields start regenerating alongside your capacitor regen rate increasing.

    Make it useful, but tricky to pull off successfully, with timing that requires precise piloting, a bit of luck, and skill in knowing exactly when to fire up again for the coming battle.


    I think you're on the right track, but in the wrong area. Make this change apply to mobility instead.

    Role bonus: undetectable by D-scan, except while warp drive is active.

    That way, someone can still fly a combat recon invisibly, but the person being jumped still has 5 seconds warning. For a solo marauder, they're humped, for the venture out huffing a C6, there's still a chance to bail while the recon is aligning and getting into warp.

    Just a thought.
    Greymist
    CollapseTrap
    #1116 - 2014-12-20 04:20:29 UTC
    Verdis deMosays wrote:



    Role bonus: undetectable by D-scan, except while warp drive is active.

    That way, someone can still fly a combat recon invisibly, but the person being jumped still has 5 seconds warning. For a solo marauder, they're humped, for the venture out huffing a C6, there's still a chance to bail while the recon is aligning and getting into warp.

    Just a thought.



    That actually makes a lot of sense.. Idea
    Greymist
    CollapseTrap
    #1117 - 2014-12-20 04:23:46 UTC
    Squatdog wrote:


    If there's one thing I trust on matters related to PVP , it's the opinion of someone with a 180-121 kill/loss record.



    Never said I was great at it Lol But don't see me crying... Cool
    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #1118 - 2014-12-20 04:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
    I've read all 50-odd pages of this mess…


    People are getting caught up on this D-Scan issue and it is frankly a silly waste of time. It makes no difference at all in any realistic 0.0 or WH situation, with a couple of twists.

    The D-Scan immunity is essentially just a special cloak that doesn't require a high slot and doesn't work if someone puts any real effort into finding you. That's all. The Recon still cannot hurt you unless it is on grid with you.

    In the current Eve universe, I enter a system. Per SOP, I immediately check local and then D-scan. I see one pilot in local. I see no ships on D-Scan. That tells me no one is uncloaked within 14.3 AU. That's all. I look at how big the system is, it is more than 14.3 AU. I warp to the other celestials and D-scan, still nothing. The pilot is either in a deep safe or cloaked.

    If there is a station, there is the possibility he is docked. I check my map tools and see that as of 30 minutes ago, no one was docked. Okay, he is either in a deep safe or cloaked.

    In the future, I just add the assumption that he could be in a Combat Recon ship. It doesn't change the analysis one bit - it is the same as if he is cloaked. Worst case scenario currently - he is cloaked in a T3. If I am not careful, he will fly up close to me, bump me, lock me, and call in a gang to kill me, whether because they are waiting next door or via cyno.

    Worst case scenario in the future? I warp to a signature and he is waiting for me and we fight. He could do the same thing now! All he has to do is wait until I am on short-range d-scan and decloak a couple of seconds before I land. By the time I have landed, his five seconds have worn off, he points me, and we fight.

    I look him up on zkillboard or eve-kill and see that he has 43 solo kills in a Rook. I wonder what ship he is flying?

    I drop my combat probes, because I don't leave home without them. I scan him down. Then I call for my friends, warp to him, bait him, and kill him with my gang. Or his gang comes in too and we have a brawl. Yay!

    Or, I look him up on zkillboard or eve-kill and see that he routinely has 14 other pilots on killmails with him and all are blackops jump bridge capable, and he is always in an Arazu. I wonder what ship he is flying?

    I bait him again and we have a fight. Yay!

    His ship still cannot kill me unless I let him get on grid with me and within range. Which I can avoid by active piloting and paying attention to my surroundings. Or, I can drop combat probes, find him, and either kill him or make him leave.

    So, where is the issue?

    The much more important part of this change will ultimately be the T2 resists. They will determine whether I can keep that Rook alive in a small gang fight, or whether my Lachesis gets volleyed off the field right away in my fleet.

    All these changes to Recon ships as a whole are awesome - CCP has finally removed the pre-nerf that came with them when they were first introduced and given warpy-cloaky ability. They finally have decent capacitors, speed, etc. They can be a really viable component to all scales of combat.

    There may even be some interesting changes for PVE from this… Depending on how much DPS and tank I can squeeze out of a pimped Rook, there may be a shakeup to the current PVE meta. Normally, when a roaming gang comes into system, the interceptors D-Scan and look at ranges to anomalies, then call "short" or "long" for the rest of the gang. "Short" if there is anything PVE looking on d-scan and "long" if there is not. The gang shotguns to the appropriate anomalies at ranges. Now, if the Rook can viably run anomalies, I can PVE in that and not be instantly obvious to that initial scout - giving me more time to get safe, get into a PVP fit ship, and fight the risk-averse pussies who come looking for ratters to gank. Don't be offended, I am also one of those people who likes to gank ratters. We all do.

    As for changes to individual ships - the Pilgrim should get a range bonus and an amount bonus, just like the Curse. The price it should pay for covert jump bridge capability and warpy-cloaky is that it fits slightly fewer neuts because it fits the covert ops cloak.

    I would like to see all Recons get the option to viably go shield or armor based on slot layout. Obviously armor fits will have more utility than shield, but this class should be versatile in this regard.

    I'd like to see the Huginn and Rook get enough CPU/PG to fit appropriate weapons, reasonable tank, and prop mod comfortably.

    I'd prefer to see the Rapier be the Projectile Ship and the Huginn be the missile ship. I think a missile Huginn is potentially more interesting than a projectile Huginn, especially one that has a hard time fitting 720s.

    Still, all in all, good changes.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #1119 - 2014-12-20 04:40:43 UTC
    Aeron Kinkade wrote:
    Oh FFS CCP! Did you drink an extra dose of bong water when you thought about this? Recons having dscan immunity AND getting stat buffs! Absolutely obsurd! There is already a major issue with AFK cloakers that just sit and camp a system; now you want to just add to that????

    So let's see here so far CCP

    In the last patch you screwed jump bridges, cyno's, etc, and any other kind of travel other than gate to gate. And now you want to go and make it that much easier for someone to afk camp.... how nice.... What else you got for 2015? Do you just plan on destroying NULL and Low Sec all together by the end of 2015. If so, please let me know so I can find something else to invest my time and money in.

    Good day CCP


    You can use probes to scan down these Combat Recon "AFK cloakers." If they are actually AFK, that is an easy kill.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #1120 - 2014-12-20 04:59:00 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
    Malcolm Faust wrote:
    This will make low/null/wh exploration obsolete. I can understand the need for something that can't be seen for FW, but I bet more than half of the use will be to hunt explorers. The only way around it is to use one for exploration, except they are severely hindered as an exploration ship. Should have given this bonus to T3 ships as a subsystem.


    Please, stop exploring. If this is your attitude, and everyone else is this risk averse, I will make so much more ISK if all the competition stops. I already assume that if there is a character in local with me, he has scanned down the site, gotten inside and cloaked (it's all possible if you know what you are doing). So, I plan accordingly.

    If there is no local, I already assume there is someone cloaked in the site and plan accordingly.

    This situation is absolutely no different than if the dude is cloaked inside the complex or site, except that at least I can immediately see him on grid with me when I warp in the first ship - and I know that he is currently tanking all the rats in the site. Good luck fitting all these insta-locking tackle Lachesis OMGWTF solo pnwmobiles of doom and tanking a plex at the same time.

    Or, after I scan it down, I drop some combat probes really quickly and check for recon ships. Oh my God! How hard was that? I didn't even have to change ships to find him!

    Or, I warp at ten, cloaked, in my covert ops to the relic site, and see the Combat Recon sitting there. Then I call in my own friends, they warp to me, and we fry him like Grandma's yard bird.

    The only area this potentially affects is it injects some uncertainty for truly "solo" PvPers looking for honorable fights inside of FW medium complexes. I can already tell from looking at a killboard that the asshat in local with me is the kind of dude who rolls with a Falcon or Rook alt. Most of the people crying are concerned about the new risk to their FW income.

    If I cannot be bothered to know the pilots in my area, or do basic intel on them, I deserve to get killed by pirate-implanted, drug-boosted "Elite PvPer 1337 WTFpwnzor" and his Falcon/Rook/OGB alts.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.