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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Author
SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#2341 - 2015-01-19 08:17:04 UTC  |  Edited by: SmarncaV2
So today I personally discovered that DSCAN immunity is terrible. Why?
I was in warp with my solo Wolf with no scout towards my destination gate in nullsec.
I didnt warp directly there so I wouldnt get caught in the bubble.
I warped from nearby celestial to gate and landed on 0m on gate.

Guess what was sitting on the bubble? Hugin and Rook

Please guys. You dont have to make them scanable on 14 AU just make it so I can see it on close range scanner like 1 AU or something. Not everyone flies around with alts all the time or has probes fitted on everything (it's not possible)

o7
Nano Sito
#2342 - 2015-01-19 22:12:58 UTC
Ciba Lexlulu wrote:
Nano Sito wrote:
Terrible idea. Can't think of a better way to discourage people in high sec from ever going to low and/or null sec systems. This change renders the most trusted and dependable tool in all EVE useless. CCP, get your act together! Don't screw the game for everyone because you just feel the need to fix a single type of ship!!


You must be one of those people who thinks once click jump from highsec to lowsec, they will be ganked and explode instantly. Have you fly around lowsec recently post Proteus? How many total kills do you think involve combat recon? I suspect not that many vs. Total kills in lowsec. For certain the usage has increased. But my suspicion is Rifter probably has more kills than the whole line of Combat Recon.

I personally do not see that many of them. And I fly exclusively in lowsec FW space.


Recon ships were among the least used in Eve, not seeing lots of them only a few days after the uber buff doesn't prove anything. All I'm saying is that if you can't trust the D-Scan sometimes, you can't trust it period. This change is hostile to newbies. I'm sure you would like more people taking the plunge and roam around low sec, but this change makes it even more difficult for them to feel inclined to do so.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#2343 - 2015-01-19 22:17:00 UTC
Today i found that bombers and cloaks are terrible. Why i dscaned and saw nothing. Warp from a planet and like 20 bombers decloaked and killed me. Oh and they had a rapier and a falcon.

Seriously. Losing a ship does not make something terrible.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#2344 - 2015-01-20 00:32:13 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Today i found that bombers and cloaks are terrible. Why i dscaned and saw nothing. Warp from a planet and like 20 bombers decloaked and killed me. Oh and they had a rapier and a falcon.

Seriously. Losing a ship does not make something terrible.


Before Rapier and Falcon manage to decloak I'll kill atleast one bomber or warp off.
I must also add that I have abused recon dscan immunity in lowsec inside a medium complex and got quite a few kills. It was quite funny when people were warping in not knowing that there are a few sensor boosted recons inside.

If you are abusing the same tactic you probably think that it's really amazing because you get many kills. It's not
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#2345 - 2015-01-20 01:32:48 UTC
SmarncaV2 wrote:
Before Rapier and Falcon manage to decloak I'll kill atleast one bomber or warp off.
Oh please, you know damn well that this is not how that engagement goes. Falcon instalocks and permajams, bombers have low sp, and so it takes hours to kill you while you flail about like a cat on lsd trying to get away, before eventually dieing in a ball of anticlimactic fire... in Tama... because reasons. (couldn't help myself, aaaanyway)

Yes it can be abused, but so can any number of other things that annoy the hell out of vast swaths of the player base. But it's things like these that eve is built around, and like it or not, keep people coming back. These things seem to be intended to **** you off, frustrate you and force you to pull your head out of your ass and not be just a lazy dscan monkey. More surprise buttsex was needed in Eve. Whether it's a fleet of bombers decloaking, smart bombing battleships being hotdropped on your out gate, or suddenly falcons permajamming you while you get shot to death by a rookie ship, or any other annoying way to die, it happens. More explosions are good, and if you or I explode more because of this change, then god bless - ccp has done there job.

ALSO eventually the novelty will wear off and you will find that most people will get bored of plex camping, and the only ones left doing it will be the same ones who sit on lowsec gates smart bombing every pod, frig, etc that dares try and pass through the system, as it has always been. So instead of dieing to a smart bombing proteus on your low sec fw pipes, you die to a recon waiting in a plex, and honestly I don't even think the guys smartbombing will stop and switch to recons. Less killmails overall i suspect.
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#2346 - 2015-01-20 07:40:54 UTC
There's a difference between a good conflict driver and a gimmick.

On a long enough timeline, the life expectancy of everyone drops to zero.

Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#2347 - 2015-01-22 07:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Removed a reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

edit:
Evora Pirkibo wrote:
There's a difference between a good conflict driver and a gimmick.

there's also a difference between conflict drivers and ship rebalancing. ships as a whole are not conflict drivers they are the tools used in such conflicts. resources on the other hand are a conflict driver, but that sort of thing belongs in a different thread.
and if you really want to argue the fact that ship rebalancing will result in more use of said ships in combat then i can accept that argument, but im fairly certain this change has indeed resulted in greater use of these ships.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#2348 - 2015-01-22 08:43:27 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The Rules:
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2349 - 2015-01-28 15:33:46 UTC
Terrible change, combat recons were fine as their were, high skill capped flimsy support ship only truely good in the hand of a proper pilot in a nano gang.

Now they are all falcons.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#2350 - 2015-02-01 12:29:07 UTC
games changed change with it fit probes use that mobile depo or get a friend


don't go into a med plex w/o a scout or scanning


or tbh i feel combat recons should be removed from med plexes overall but the d-scan immunity i have found to be pretty good in WH i have gotten fights when i thought i was just getting a venture kill
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#2351 - 2015-02-03 19:23:55 UTC
Wh ganks are now layups as predicted. We've swapped from tactical bubble BM and other shinanigans to find guy, hop in recons, kill guy. It's not exactly fun, but it is a lot faster. If you like ganking in easy mode - get a sensor boosted lachesis.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2352 - 2015-02-04 01:16:24 UTC
I'm really not seeing where a cloaked recon wasn't capable of doing the exact same thing before.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2353 - 2015-02-05 21:47:18 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
I'm really not seeing where a cloaked recon wasn't capable of doing the exact same thing before.


aww, this again? Sorry, not your fault but its been said before.
Theres alot of factors like targeting delay, uncloaking at gates and more that make the cloaked recon a balanced threat and not the ultimate silly-mode ganking tool that the combat recons have become.

this change is for the worst, all the negative effects we predicted are now a reality and it has been getting negative publicity even by some that use it to their advantage. Enough said.

I am waiting for the dev team to either supply data on how this change helped, or just do the honorable thing, admit the mistake and reconsider taking it back alltogether.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2354 - 2015-02-05 23:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Celestia Via wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I'm really not seeing where a cloaked recon wasn't capable of doing the exact same thing before.


aww, this again? Sorry, not your fault but its been said before.
Theres alot of factors like targeting delay, uncloaking at gates and more that make the cloaked recon a balanced threat and not the ultimate silly-mode ganking tool that the combat recons have become.

this change is for the worst, all the negative effects we predicted are now a reality and it has been getting negative publicity even by some that use it to their advantage. Enough said.

I am waiting for the dev team to either supply data on how this change helped, or just do the honorable thing, admit the mistake and reconsider taking it back alltogether.

And what, combat recons don't appear until they're out of warp?

E: also, if you're waiting on the dev team to supply data, how can you say your claims all came true?
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2355 - 2015-02-05 23:14:47 UTC
Rowells wrote:

And what, combat recons don't appear until they're out of warp?

E: also, if you're waiting on the dev team to supply data, how can you say your claims all came true?


1: uh, what? they dont appear at all on dscan. Its not just them warping on you, its also them waiting at warpin point inside plexes and getting easy mindless kills.

2: from personal observation, talking with people, reading these forums. Real game statistic data can prove me wrong so lets see it. Actual proof that this actually helped in more ways than it harmed.

Are you making me state the obvious just for the sake of argument? Or you have something to discuss?

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2356 - 2015-02-06 00:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Celestia Via wrote:
Rowells wrote:

And what, combat recons don't appear until they're out of warp?

E: also, if you're waiting on the dev team to supply data, how can you say your claims all came true?


1: uh, what? they dont appear at all on dscan. Its not just them warping on you, its also them waiting at warpin point inside plexes and getting easy mindless kills.

2: from personal observation, talking with people, reading these forums. Real game statistic data can prove me wrong so lets see it. Actual proof that this actually helped in more ways than it harmed.

Are you making me state the obvious just for the sake of argument? Or you have something to discuss?

Celestia, you are obviously passionate about this, but you're not really thinking about the realities of how a Force Recon can be used.

1:
A Combat recon warps in, is visible for several seconds as it comes out of warp, and then can commence to maneuver and target from a dead stop.
When warping in a Combat Recon must also take in the situation and react appropriately within a few seconds.


A Force Recon can warp in and maneuver to their desired position and maintain their desired speed while doing so, decloak, and target in pretty close to the same amount of time from when they become visible as it takes for other ships to come out of warp and do the same.
They are also at liberty to make part of their maneuvers include closing for a bump at speed to ensure that their target cannot easily align and jump out.
When warping in a Force Recon has all the time in the world to assess the situation, place himself appropriately, call in back-up, leave, etc, before he decloaks and commits to the attack.

These are all powerful advantages a cloaking Force Recon has over a Combat Recon when warping in on a target, advantages that can easily be leveraged with practice and experience.


As to your assertion that Combat Recons are dangerous because they can lie in wait inside a plex, after due consideration I will agree that this is true. In the only situation that I can think of where a ship cannot cloak, and a target will always drop out of warp in a set place, a Combat Recon does have an advantage over a Force Recon.

However, you have to admit that it's a pretty big leap to take from "we need a small tweak in this one small area of the game" to "the entire class is now unbalanced and this special ability is far too powerful".

That's a pretty simple tweak ask for, to disallow them from Faction Warfare plexes... ship restrictions are common in that mechanic as it is.

2:
I shouldn't need to point this out, but confused people repeating the same misinformation doesn't make it any more valid... and a single minor flaw does not necessitate sweeping revision.

CCP's design philosophy has always been to observe closely what the player base does with a changed game mechanic and make adjustments appropriately. In fact the desire to enact needed tweaks in a more timely manner was one of the driving forces behind the shorter development cycle they are now following.

So if you wish to campaign for Combat Recons to be restricted from Faction Warfare Plexes, I'd be pleased to raise my voice with yours. However if you're attempting to portray the "invisibility to D-scan" ability as something which is vastly overpowered, especially in comparison to their cloak capable cousins, I'm afraid I'm going to have to firmly disagree.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2357 - 2015-02-06 05:26:43 UTC
Ranger1, i wrote a long and eloquent response to your post but it got lost. Sad

Long story short, my counterarguments are these:

I agree that cloaked versions can hunt effectively but are alot weaker in combat than the recently overhauled CRs.
Also, it takes skill and effort to accomplish, its a hunt and not a silly warpin camp gimmick.

another difference is that cloakies do need to decloak at somepoints, gates, acc gates, wormholes, making them visible to dscan and warning the vigilant of danger, while with CRs you never see them coming until they warp in on you (or you on them). This is a major difference, this split second one can see the cloaker in dscan has kept me safe for two years in wspace.

right now, most FW plexes are being camped by CRs, making our predictions a sad reality.
If the immunity sticks, banning the CRs from FW plexes may be necessary, but I find it illogical to
give a strong buff to a ship and then start banning it from things because the buff you gave was
too strong, dont you agree? Seems to me you would rather need to reevaluate the buff.

i dont think its a solution to see how people abuse the immunity and ban them from doing so.
I wish to see the immunity gone because it promotes stale gameplay (silly camping) and also because
I really fail to see the slightest advantage in it. Even some people that use it (properly, not camping) criticize
it, since it takes away the thrill of the hunt.

all its disadvantages have been analyzed thoroughly and we agree on at least one, the plex camping thing.
I have yet to hear of any advantages. You seem like a proper conversationist, if you can see any positive side
to the immunity, please help me see it as well, at least until we have the dev data to prove one or the other.


"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#2358 - 2015-02-06 14:37:38 UTC
You can argue all the this and thats you want to. I'm flat out telling you - it's been great in wh space w/ no local and no d-scan. In the past we would have to do some planning, maybe make a bm between a POS and a site to warp a dictor to or some other up front work. Now we find them, hop in and kill them. We do it every night. It is easier.

The sad part is, they are weaker than other ships we've used in the past. That results in us dog piling a larger number of recons on a given gank. We do this to keep the dps high. We've come close to losing the odd recon to sleepers. To compensate, we try to bring more to damage tank the whole situation. We're posting some extra lopsided kills because of this.

Our new term for ganking someone w/ recons is 'snack'. Usage: 'we grabbed a quick proteus snack in C3a' Term is copyrighted by Rahmiro, so send isk to him if you use it.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2359 - 2015-02-06 15:50:16 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You can argue all the this and thats you want to. I'm flat out telling you - it's been great in wh space w/ no local and no d-scan. In the past we would have to do some planning, maybe make a bm between a POS and a site to warp a dictor to or some other up front work. Now we find them, hop in and kill them. We do it every night. It is easier.

The sad part is, they are weaker than other ships we've used in the past. That results in us dog piling a larger number of recons on a given gank. We do this to keep the dps high. We've come close to losing the odd recon to sleepers. To compensate, we try to bring more to damage tank the whole situation. We're posting some extra lopsided kills because of this.

Our new term for ganking someone w/ recons is 'snack'. Usage: 'we grabbed a quick proteus snack in C3a' Term is copyrighted by Rahmiro, so send isk to him if you use it.



I predicted this as well, my posts on it are a couple of pages back.

You seem honest enough, please tell us, what effect do you think this will have on wh activity?

Here's my take on it :
If as you say kills are way easier now, logically more people will turn to employing your tactic to fill their killboards.
Does anyone here believe that wormholers will just be ok with losing 1bil ships every other night, without any form of defense
possible? I, for one, think not. I think they will go inactive, evacuate or just stop paying their sub.
Following the ruin of FWplex comes the ruin of all w-space pve, and therefore w-space pvp as well.

Solutions? ban CR's from w-space as well as from FW plexes? We can all see where this is going, the way i see it, is the immunity ruining one activity after the other and getting banned from them accordingly. You will excuse me, but that is pure bollocks.

Still looking to hear positive feedback about the immunity. And I mean positive for the game as a whole, not "Its better now cause i get easy kills", spare me that, i beg you.


"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#2360 - 2015-02-06 17:19:21 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You can argue all the this and thats you want to. I'm flat out telling you - it's been great in wh space w/ no local and no d-scan. In the past we would have to do some planning, maybe make a bm between a POS and a site to warp a dictor to or some other up front work. Now we find them, hop in and kill them. We do it every night. It is easier.

The sad part is, they are weaker than other ships we've used in the past. That results in us dog piling a larger number of recons on a given gank. We do this to keep the dps high. We've come close to losing the odd recon to sleepers. To compensate, we try to bring more to damage tank the whole situation. We're posting some extra lopsided kills because of this.

Our new term for ganking someone w/ recons is 'snack'. Usage: 'we grabbed a quick proteus snack in C3a' Term is copyrighted by Rahmiro, so send isk to him if you use it.



I predicted this as well, my posts on it are a couple of pages back.

You seem honest enough, please tell us, what effect do you think this will have on wh activity?

Here's my take on it :
If as you say kills are way easier now, logically more people will turn to employing your tactic to fill their killboards.
Does anyone here believe that wormholers will just be ok with losing 1bil ships every other night, without any form of defense
possible? I, for one, think not. I think they will go inactive, evacuate or just stop paying their sub.
Following the ruin of FWplex comes the ruin of all w-space pve, and therefore w-space pvp as well.

Solutions? ban CR's from w-space as well as from FW plexes? We can all see where this is going, the way i see it, is the immunity ruining one activity after the other and getting banned from them accordingly. You will excuse me, but that is pure bollocks.

Still looking to hear positive feedback about the immunity. And I mean positive for the game as a whole, not "Its better now cause i get easy kills", spare me that, i beg you.



You don't know wormholers. We aren't going anywhere and well stuff not showing on DScan? what else is new? Seriously DScan imune makes the lest difference to wormhole corps, if they are not dirty farmers that is.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.