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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
X Gallentius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2321 - 2015-01-15 19:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Dani Maulerant wrote:
Cloak hulls have a targeting delay. D-scan immune are inta-lock soon as you make visual contact with it.
Targeting delay doesn't matter once your ship is tackled.

The only REAL difference is that you have a chance of spotting a cloaky recon with your D-Scan when he gets decloaked (which is unlikely if they are already set up when you jump into system). If you don't have eyes directly on the combat recon you'll never know he's there even if you are in system.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2322 - 2015-01-15 19:31:50 UTC
My solo perspective the past couple days in minny FW.

Havent been ganked by a recon dunk squad yet. Ive seen them warping around, hitting gates and such. But havent warped into a plex with em waiting.

If i suspect recon dunk squad i warp at 100 to larges, or, open a new medium. Right now if im missing people on dscan compared to local then i move on to the next system. For example, i saw 7 people in local, warped around dscanning like a mofo. No one on scan? Good chance its a recon squad.

I was roaming in a bc and occasionally my newly buffed rapier (which is almost immune to this issue). i think there is going to be an adjustment phase for everyone , but its not "gg fw". You will have to rely on the available tools and common sense instead of dscan telling us everything. There are PLENTY of systems to cap, not all of them are occupied. If you cant plex a system or are unsure of whats waiting, move on. Its not like EVE doesnt have thousands of systems.

FW is a group effort for actual progress. If you really want to have a semi level playing field, invite your militia buddies into a fleet. Otherwise pick your plexes carefully.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2323 - 2015-01-15 20:08:12 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
was roaming in a bc and occasionally my newly buffed rapier (which is almost immune to this issue). i think there is going to be an adjustment phase for everyone , but its not "gg fw". You will have to rely on the available tools and common sense instead of dscan telling us everything. There are PLENTY of systems to cap, not all of them are occupied. If you cant plex a system or are unsure of whats waiting, move on. Its not like EVE doesnt have thousands of systems.

but... but... what happend to:
CCP Rise wrote:
Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

Yes Rise, and after they lose some ships that way they will start to:
CCP Rise wrote:
The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

So instead of fighting ppl will bring alts or scanning ships, scan plexes and move to the systems without recons waiting to gain some killmails.
afkalt wrote:
And lastly, there's NOTHING stopping a half dozen recons warping into that plex and chewing out the other two ships. Door goes both ways.

How fun, game build around one type of ships with ceratin trait.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2324 - 2015-01-15 21:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Celestia Via
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

How fun, game build around one type of ships with certain trait.

My uncanny powers of foresight predict low and w space soon empty of everything but combat recons trying hopelessly to gang each other. At least the rest of us can have fun watching them endure this exercise in futility.

Jokes aside, there will be people discouraged from their current activities since they now include being ganked stupid without any means of defense. Some of them may find other, uninteresting ways to occupy themselves but some might lose the interest in the game alltogether.

Example :
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
If i suspect recon dunk squad i warp at 100 to larges, or, open a new medium. Right now if im missing people on dscan compared to local then i move on to the next system. For example, i saw 7 people in local, warped around dscanning like a mofo. No one on scan? Good chance its a recon squad.

I was roaming in a bc and occasionally my newly buffed rapier (which is almost immune to this issue). i think there is going to be an adjustment phase for everyone , but its not "gg fw". You will have to rely on the available tools and common sense instead of dscan telling us everything. There are PLENTY of systems to cap, not all of them are occupied. If you cant plex a system or are unsure of whats waiting, move on. Its not like EVE doesnt have thousands of systems.

FW is a group effort for actual progress. If you really want to have a semi level playing field, invite your militia buddies into a fleet. Otherwise pick your plexes carefully.


This I summarize as : Where I did plexes before, now it takes ALOT of work and time to do one, IF i am lucky enough to find a system with no one in local. I admire your persistence and optimism Stitch but most people would be discouraged and with every right to be.

Also, lets not forget that not all plexes are in FW, every single solo activity in non highsec space is actually now hindered.
Could I ignore everything and still warp my ship to a solo site and hope for the best? Sure but no thanks, I dont wish to be victimized SO easily. I like to give my killers good sport at least.

So, if a small percentage of my predictions are correct, we have what?

1) Activities prone to stupid immunity ganking dropping to minimum
2) Some people being driven away from the game since their favorite activity is now a big no-no (for "some" use your own estimate, for me even one is too many)
3) Pirates losing interest in PvP and start training trade skills since the two above clauses will eventually make them run out of targets.

...and all this is good for Eve WHY?

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

Mario Putzo
#2325 - 2015-01-15 21:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Should have just given the combat recons cloaking devices, dropped their EWAR, added another combat trait (imo 4% resists).

Split them from Force Recons, make their role unique among T2 faction ships to be Covert Ops combat cruisers (currently the Stratios and T3s are the only ships that fill this role).

But killing FW is cool, I mean its not like LS is already dead as **** everywhere but FW space, may as well make LS dead everywhere.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2326 - 2015-01-15 21:27:59 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

How fun, game build around one type of ships with certain trait.

My uncanny powers of foresight predict low and w space soon empty of everything but combat recons trying hopelessly to gang each other. At least the rest of us can have fun watching them endure this exercise in futility.

Jokes aside, there will be people discouraged from their current activities since they now include being ganked stupid without any means of defense. Some of them may find other, uninteresting ways to occupy themselves but some might lose the interest in the game alltogether.

Example :
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
If i suspect recon dunk squad i warp at 100 to larges, or, open a new medium. Right now if im missing people on dscan compared to local then i move on to the next system. For example, i saw 7 people in local, warped around dscanning like a mofo. No one on scan? Good chance its a recon squad.

I was roaming in a bc and occasionally my newly buffed rapier (which is almost immune to this issue). i think there is going to be an adjustment phase for everyone , but its not "gg fw". You will have to rely on the available tools and common sense instead of dscan telling us everything. There are PLENTY of systems to cap, not all of them are occupied. If you cant plex a system or are unsure of whats waiting, move on. Its not like EVE doesnt have thousands of systems.

FW is a group effort for actual progress. If you really want to have a semi level playing field, invite your militia buddies into a fleet. Otherwise pick your plexes carefully.


This I summarize as : Where I did plexes before, now it takes ALOT of work and time to do one, IF i am lucky enough to find a system with no one in local. I admire your persistence and optimism Stitch but most people would be discouraged and with every right to be.

Also, lets not forget that not all plexes are in FW, every single solo activity in non highsec space is actually now hindered.
Could I ignore everything and still warp my ship to a solo site and hope for the best? Sure but no thanks, I dont wish to be victimized SO easily. I like to give my killers good sport at least.

So, if a small percentage of my predictions are correct, we have what?

1) Activities prone to stupid immunity ganking dropping to minimum
2) Some people being driven away from the game since their favorite activity is now a big no-no (for "some" use your own estimate, for me even one is too many)
3) Pirates losing interest in PvP and start training trade skills since the two above clauses will eventually make them run out of targets.

...and all this is good for Eve WHY?



Doesnt really take much time. Added an extra 5min at most. Im not looking for only empty systems. Just less populated ones. Again, not every system is going to have recon dunk squads. Thats a strawman argument.

Maybe CCP is saying that dscan was too strong a tool. So they nerfed it. Im sure theres a plan in the future. Plus with new t3 dessies all having combat probe fitting reductions, that will make them a powerful solo boat to scan other sites or FW plexes before entering. Pretty sure 300ish dps is enough to kill the rats in a medium plex. Granted, this may not be ideal, but it is one option available to those more risk averse.

Or, use KB, look up pilots name, see recon kills. Move along.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2327 - 2015-01-15 21:45:21 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Maybe CCP is saying that dscan was too strong a tool.

Then change the way it works. Make it depend on ships class, role, range etc. Lazy "lets add d-scan immunity and see how it goes" solves what exactly? Wrong aproach from the beginning. I would jump into fight without knowing the recons are there for the first time. I won't do it again, because there might be recons...where do we have benefits from that situation?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Sugar Smacks
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2328 - 2015-01-15 21:54:50 UTC
Now that you have your ship that can't be picked up on D-scan and can cloak making it virtually invisible.

When will i get my ship that has the ability to not be picked up on local chat?

Seems CCP hates wh ppl and blows nullsecers.
Thorin Matarielle
Order of Garrulor
#2329 - 2015-01-15 22:21:18 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:

My uncanny powers of foresight predict low and w space soon empty of everything but combat recons trying hopelessly to gang each other


Bienator II wrote:


well, we just tried to fight two combat recons with two combat recons but we could not find each other for 20mins.



Bear
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#2330 - 2015-01-15 22:58:57 UTC
Nuthin stopping you from asking in local to just fight at the sun...
PastyWhiteDevil
Mayhem and Ruin
M A R A K U G A
#2331 - 2015-01-16 02:52:17 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Bienator II wrote:

Big smile we told you Rise.

Solution: mob the **** out of them with a frig fleet and shower yourself and your buds with expensive killmails. Just be sure to send the right guys in beforehand to get point...

What *exactly* is your idea for warping into that plex that can tackle one of these Recons long enough for your support to arrive while being neuted, jammed, damped and webbed?

A triple-ECCMed, triple-Sensorboosted, dualcapboosted, dual 1600mm plated, 100MN AB Cynabal maybe?

Oh wait... there could be a medslot/powergid problem.

On the other hand, what again was your solution for the SOLO (!!!!!!!!!!) beginner who wants to join LowSec FW in his first Frig/Destroyer/Cruiser? Ah wait...: "Don't do FW in Lowsec until you can come with a 10+ Gang!"

Yeah thats a great idea, because the concept of "just bring the blob" is what everyone out there wants and needs for having a fun time in Blob Online...


it would basically have to be a specially fitted lachesis with long point, no prop, cap booster (maybe 2) 1 eccm mod, and probably dual buffer tanked w/ transverse bulkheads, with information links.
Seraph IX Basarab
Invincible.
#2332 - 2015-01-16 04:25:17 UTC
All this change does is make the "other recons" actually viable and useful. Don't understand why people are running around like their hair's on fire. htfu
Lug Muad'Dib
Funk'in Hole
#2333 - 2015-01-16 05:35:07 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Doesnt really take much time. Added an extra 5min at most. Im not [u]looking for only empty systems. Just less populated ones. Again, not every system is going to have recon dunk squads. Thats a strawman argument.

..

Or, use KB, look up pilots name, see recon kills. Move along.


And this is why it's a stupid mechanic.
Tectonic Tetris
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2334 - 2015-01-17 11:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tectonic Tetris
Please roll back this change. I appreciate the intention of providing interesting new parameters to the paper/rock/scissors equation, but this is just way off. The d-scan is an integral tool for anyone roaming in small gangs or solo. If we can no longer trust it, it will lead to more cautious behavior, slower gameplay and less fights. This is the last thing that low sec and fw needs, and will lead to further desolation.

You could make a case saying that cloaks already makes d-scan results non trustworthy. This is true to some extent, but the targeting delay and the inferior combat performance of cov ops enabled ships makes it less of an issue. Also as soon as any cloaked ship has committed to a fight, it is no longer invisible.

I will personally probably stop fighting solo or in small gangs in systems with overwhelmingly red locals. Previously you could dodge most scenarios semi effectively in a fast cruiser or smaller. Of course not risk free, but still worth it for the fun. With potential sensor-boosted, instalocking lachesises, rooks or huginns lurking at every beacon or celestial, the caution needed would tip the scale towards boredom.

I'm sure that I am not the only one who will change their behavior in space like this, and I'm pretty sure it's not a good thing.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#2335 - 2015-01-17 11:39:18 UTC
The time it takes from showing up on your overview and you getting locked up is about the same, be it from warping in or from decloaking. You have exactly the same warning, except that combat recon might be too far away to point you right away, instead of decloaking by bumping you from alignment.

Besides, you can find the combat recon with probes. You cannot find the cloaky ship unless he wants to be found.

Wormholer for life.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2336 - 2015-01-17 13:37:18 UTC
D-scan immunity will only extend the time you will jump into fight. Before you just hop into ship and jump into plex. Now you have to scan a plex and if there are recons, you have to decide if you want to take a risk and jump into instalocking ecming camp...rubbish.

Wander Prian wrote:
Besides, you can find the combat recon with probes. You cannot find the cloaky ship unless he wants to be found.

Same applies to combat recons, you won't find them unless they want to be find.

It seems like d-scan change made a mess with FW and have no real impact on fleets.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Arla Sarain
#2337 - 2015-01-17 14:59:01 UTC
Tectonic Tetris wrote:
The d-scan is an integral tool for anyone roaming in small gangs or solo. If we can no longer trust it, it will lead to more cautious behavior, slower gameplay and less fights.

Pretty much it

This phenomenon has been noticed through out countless games. The less information you provide the more cautious players become and tend to risk less. EVE is already an extremely proactive heavy game.

I never understood the example CCP provided - if someone who wouldn't have had engaged an enemy because a recon was on D-SCAN decides to do so now because the DSCAN fools him into believing the recon is not present, NOW people will die once and never be bothered to engage in that activity again. Whatever global benefit this change had will be short term.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2338 - 2015-01-17 22:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Celestia Via
Wander Prian wrote:
The time it takes from showing up on your overview and you getting locked up is about the same, be it from warping in or from decloaking. You have exactly the same warning, except that combat recon might be too far away to point you right away, instead of decloaking by bumping you from alignment.

Besides, you can find the combat recon with probes. You cannot find the cloaky ship unless he wants to be found.


one point about that, There is always a chance to see the cloaked invader when he decloacs/cloacs when passing through gates or wormholes. You have to be working inside the gates scan range ofcourse but still, its a technique that kept me alive for years in w-space.

So, cloaks do have a weakness, a point where they can be seen. Its not as same as you claim.


If CCP wants to encourage PvP as they say, just increase the loot and salvage of players wrecks or something and find a way to reward a small fleet for being small. Simple things like that might lure more people to bravery.
Don't make some kind of ship invisible and some other invincible, these moves help to the opposite.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

Nano Sito
#2339 - 2015-01-18 19:23:42 UTC
Terrible idea. Can't think of a better way to discourage people in high sec from ever going to low and/or null sec systems. This change renders the most trusted and dependable tool in all EVE useless. CCP, get your act together! Don't screw the game for everyone because you just feel the need to fix a single type of ship!!
Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#2340 - 2015-01-19 05:59:10 UTC
Nano Sito wrote:
Terrible idea. Can't think of a better way to discourage people in high sec from ever going to low and/or null sec systems. This change renders the most trusted and dependable tool in all EVE useless. CCP, get your act together! Don't screw the game for everyone because you just feel the need to fix a single type of ship!!


You must be one of those people who thinks once click jump from highsec to lowsec, they will be ganked and explode instantly. Have you fly around lowsec recently post Proteus? How many total kills do you think involve combat recon? I suspect not that many vs. Total kills in lowsec. For certain the usage has increased. But my suspicion is Rifter probably has more kills than the whole line of Combat Recon.

I personally do not see that many of them. And I fly exclusively in lowsec FW space.