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so in other words.. you knew he screwed up.. we complained about that at the very start of the implementation how much of a drastic change he did.. and now you see your numbers are what we were saying this entire time.. to add to it he even screwed up invention with a promise that teams would be added..

you basically are just admitting your faults and a Crius II is going to occur sometime in 2015.


and seriously you DO need to fix it you caused an epic level of pain for industry all together.

ignored ones it seems .. there were far too many good cases of teams being used and liked apparently, so they start another one assuming those people wont put the effort in too repeat themselves so they can remove it without so much resistance ... its one way to avoid negative feedback i suppose

You seem to be delusional; I remember the thread when teams were announced, and I can't remember everyone saying that.

Industry has MASSIVELY improved since Crius. Apart from a few small issues, the overwhelming effect of the changes has been positive.

Where I'm coming from vs where MOST are coming from
I've been doing industry in EVE for just shy of 9 years now, the teams system was interesting for someone like me because I run 20 characters doing industry, not mining, but building, researching and invention. A team could make a system excellent with reduced costs. However since I don't play all day, time factor savings almost never mattered to me. The majority of players run 1 to 4 indy characters, a team wouldn't do much for them unless it was a ME team and even then the interface to use the team wasn't easy to understand.

Why was it hard for the average player to understand
Teams were billed as 'being able to effect an attribute of industry' however each team came with 4 different specializations, when asking most players about it in the various channels, most didn't understand that aspect. I think that level of confusion hurt the teams, and drove down their usage.

Manufacturing vrs research teams
Personally I looked all over, and I never even saw the option to use teams in research, I mostly invent, but I looked at the ME and TE tabs and never saw a blank slot to put a team into when I started those jobs. I'll bet many other players did that as well, and if players don't see it easily and have to hunt for it, especially when doing dozens of jobs per day, they usually forget about it.

Player migration for teams and bonuses
Hands down, almost no player that is serious in industry will do this. I have just shy of 400,000 bpo's and bpcs sitting in a single station in empire, could I move it with my swarm, possibly but it's a giant pain. Even smaller players are going to have 5+ freighters full and once you add the costs of the tools we use in industry (Datacores, tech 2 components, BPO's, etc) those freighters quickly become worth 10b+ each trip. With current mechanics of freighters, and CCP's refusal to give us the ability to move large amounts of cargo easily without being either EASILY gankable or well armored but no capacity, why would anyone want to risk billions to save a few hundred mill?

Cha-cha-CHANGES!!!
The changes you are trying to make are good, they really are, the interface change helped a person like me a great deal. Being able to 'repeat' a job is something that is MAJOR for me. As I usually put a character on each build job with 10 of the same BPO to keep things 'easy' for myself. But the problem you have to remember isn't just costs and time, we don't have the tools to move a massive operation on a dime, it's akin to trying to turn a super tanker going full speed in the ocean. Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine with ganking freighters, I take the steps so I won't be ganked. But one of those steps is staying put and not putting hundreds of billions at risk when it only takes af hundred mill to pop any freighter these days.

We need better tools! Not just systems!
This isn't a knock against CCP, it's just that very few changes, if ever have happened to industry up until recently. We could use tons more to make our jobs easier and more fun. (PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY LET ME QUEUE UP INDUSTRY JOBS UP TO 24 hours or 3 days PER CHARACTER PLZ) *ahem* Without being able to move our operations easily and safely, the end result is what you got, most simply won't move. We could use more ways to do the same things and that might make it easier. BPC's are the first step in this, don't want to risk your bpo's, use bpcs. Fine np, but what else can I do? What other types of risk reducing factors can the average player use that doesn't take 10+ characters to take advantage of.

Possible suggestions for CCP guys that *might* read this
What about empire 'Free trade zones'- maybe every month a constellation is picked at random from each empire, these constellations lower all taxes and fees to say .1%, if the next zone is picked when the new one spawns, players could plan out 30 days ahead of time to move items, prepare, etc etc. and the benefits are well known in advance.

NPC station/system degrading upgrades
It's like teams, only it the players can build it onto the station and get almost any benefit they want, the upgrade degrades so it has to be renewed. It can be repaired wtih isk or industrial goods. You get the same exact effect of teams in all systems, all players in system have access to it just like teams and it's also an isk sink.

Contract work between players
Let players create jobs like contracts for others to work on, think of an industry job ready to go, but it needs another player to come by and click 'create' with the right skills as well as tying up their character instead of mine. I'd pay good isk for that, something I think could open new opportunities for players.

Anyway, this is getting way off topic, I just hope that a little of what i've said will make someone at CCP say 'hrmm, that's a new way of looking at that'. I could write a book about all of this kinda stuff after years of industry in EVE, but I'd only want to if I know it'd do some good or someone in power would actually read it. So for now, I'll leave these little suggestions in my posts and hope for the best.

Thanks for this great game, and for giving some love to industry, it's not perfect but we can see you're trying and trying HARD. Thanks for that!

Glad to see them gone. We the player community told you it was a crap idea before their introduction.

Teams from the outset were a bad idea that should never have seen the light of day. Also many us thought that somehow we'd be able to form capsular teams for an advantage but that clearly wasn't the case.

Good decision though. Now bring back Incarna.

When you decided to do it - it was a F***ed up idea. You never seem to listen to the players in Industry and Mining much. As a result, industry is still BROKEN because of what you did - just removing the TEAM morons isn't gonna fix the broken.

How about adding a bonus to ME per level of Advanced Industry to compensate for no Teams now?

Now get rid of the outlandish new fees charged for researching blueprints. Two egregious examples, it takes almost 20 million ISK to research some blueprints from lvl 9 to lvl 10 or from lvl 1 to lvl 10 in one go, lol. There are others....

I dont understand why teams have to go, unless they are a drag on the efficiency of the servers. But you have not said that.

Bidding was terrible, but hunting for a systems with bonus's was fun. It made indy playable. You'd have a central HQ, find the bonused system you were looking for and fly there, anchor a POS and start researching, building, whatever. You are removing the only playable part of Indy and replacing it with nothing.

Industry needs more love. It needs to be a playable career because not everyone wants to shoot stuff.

Idea 1

Teams should be made as a skill type for everyone to train and use in every industrial are research station. skill would range from #% to #% for each type. there would be set teams at every station that could be bought and used depending on your skill level.

research team skill
industry team skill

Idea 2

Are you could make industry teams units that could be hauled in ships to your work station and add to which ever job you like. These units could either spawn randomly from Manufacturing, researching, copying, and invention. Depending on what you are building are researching would result in which team could spawn to be added to future jobs. These teams could be bought and sold on the market.

This would add an extra incentive to industry and a boost to the markets.