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It is Past Time for the Republic to Sue for Peace
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Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#21 - 2014-12-16 22:43:26 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:

Based on Del'thul's history, she'd slit their throats herself.

Better dead than on your knees, right Del'thul?


To die on your feet rather than live on your knees? Certainly, but that's a personal choice of mine. You still seem to have bought into the hyperbole and myth of past events rather than the truth of what happened, little kin. If you are ever interested in finding out what really happened back then, feel free to contact me. If it is easier for you to make up something that fits your view of how the world should be and how The Big Bad Enemies should behave, that is of course your choice.

Either way, it matters little. The conditions for peace are known. Work towards them or not. I have done more than enough to mark me a villain that it doesn't really matter if I am saddled with the propaganda of the past as well.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#22 - 2014-12-16 22:53:26 UTC
**** waving, again? seriously, arn't there more pressing issues then who controls a small region of space that CONCORD and the empires don't even care about?

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#23 - 2014-12-16 23:13:28 UTC
With respect, Lord Lok'ri, the State and the Federation were able to find a measure of peace from their own iteration of the attacks you mentioned because both sides were happy to talk peace and make concessions.

What you are talking about is a surrender. It's very unlikely to happen - especially when you do nothing to assuage their feelings about those slaves they see as kin and the price is FURTHER economic damage to those Minmatar outside the Empire. Frankly, demanding economic concessions is petty. Don't you understand that the more onerous you make the peace, the more acceptable you make the war?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Anslo
Scope Works
#24 - 2014-12-16 23:22:25 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
With respect, Lord Lok'ri, the State and the Federation were able to find a measure of peace from their own iteration of the attacks you mentioned because both sides were happy to talk peace and make concessions.

What you are talking about is a surrender. It's very unlikely to happen - especially when you do nothing to assuage their feelings about those slaves they see as kin and the price is FURTHER economic damage to those Minmatar outside the Empire. Frankly, demanding economic concessions is petty. Don't you understand that the more onerous you make the peace, the more acceptable you make the war?

Tuulinen for President.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#25 - 2014-12-16 23:46:08 UTC
Tuulinen for Empress.
Anslo
Scope Works
#26 - 2014-12-16 23:47:27 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Tuulinen for Empress.

Tuulinen for Presempress.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#27 - 2014-12-16 23:50:00 UTC
A few months ago wasn't the 24th crusade on the verge of being over run? You've had control for a total of what? Three days? Maybe 4? Are you dangling this "easy way out" to hide the fact you know the Tribal Liberation Front will be back once again to put you slavers back in your place? I don't recall the TLF having to gloat this much about their victories, why do you?

To sum it up, Your false bravado is showing, might want to cover up...
Anslo
Scope Works
#28 - 2014-12-16 23:52:00 UTC
SHOTS FIRED DEITRA WHY SO FIERCE

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#29 - 2014-12-16 23:53:16 UTC
I have my reasons....
Anslo
Scope Works
#30 - 2014-12-16 23:53:54 UTC
I LIKE

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Erin Savonarola
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-12-17 00:05:23 UTC
End the CEMWPA, return to the pre-YC110 borders, and once the shooting has stopped, we can work on a long term solution.
Alexa de'Crux
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-12-17 00:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexa de'Crux
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:

If it is easier for you to make up something that fits your view of how the world should be and how The Big Bad Enemies should behave, that is of course your choice.


I am not the most...adept person, when it comes to language, but I believe that this qualifies as 'irony'...
Kyoko Sakoda
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#33 - 2014-12-17 00:27:03 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
With respect, Lord Lok'ri, the State and the Federation were able to find a measure of peace from their own iteration of the attacks you mentioned because both sides were happy to talk peace and make concessions.

What you are talking about is a surrender. It's very unlikely to happen - especially when you do nothing to assuage their feelings about those slaves they see as kin and the price is FURTHER economic damage to those Minmatar outside the Empire. Frankly, demanding economic concessions is petty. Don't you understand that the more onerous you make the peace, the more acceptable you make the war?


I would be honored to fly alongside you any day, Tuulinen. Just for making this reply.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-12-17 01:00:02 UTC
I do not think anyone would object to the ending of this war by proxy. It would be already if not for mercenary coalitions, PMC's, privateers, and arms dealers lobbying CONCORD.


The war Amarr started on the Day of Darkness however, will live far longer.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Erin Savonarola
Doomheim
#35 - 2014-12-17 01:28:44 UTC
With regards to the temporary domination of the Amarr/Minmatar warzone. It is just that, temporary. Tomorrow, or the next day the Minmatar will take a system back and then another. The war will never end; it's designed to never end. That is the great tragedy of this conflict and why I call for an end to it. There is no chance for victory, just an endless slaughter of lives.
I do not speak for the Empress or her Privy Council. I do not know what conditions they will set for peace. I will, however, accept and support whatever conditions they decide upon. I do urge them to recognize that this Forever War is pointless and should be ended as soon as possible.
Similarly, I would hope that the new Tribal government recognizes that this conflict will not actually 'free the slaves.' It's been going strong now for over half a decade. Warzone control has shifted back and forth more times than can really be counted. And still, nothing has changed. It could go for another century, and still, nothing will change. All that is happening is the Tribes are wasting treasure that could be used to improve the lives of their people. Worse, the Tribes are wasting lives.
Every day this war drags on is a tragedy.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#36 - 2014-12-17 01:30:20 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
With respect, Lord Lok'ri, the State and the Federation were able to find a measure of peace from their own iteration of the attacks you mentioned because both sides were happy to talk peace and make concessions.

What you are talking about is a surrender. It's very unlikely to happen - especially when you do nothing to assuage their feelings about those slaves they see as kin and the price is FURTHER economic damage to those Minmatar outside the Empire. Frankly, demanding economic concessions is petty. Don't you understand that the more onerous you make the peace, the more acceptable you make the war?


Removing Shakor from power is the only concession I have specifically mentioned. As far as I personally am concerned everything else is negotiable. This is hardly a surrender.

But we cannot talk peace while the Republic maintains its claim to be able to ignore treaties and launch surprise attacks. There is no value in treaties with people like Shakor, who consider said treaties to be effectively meaningless.

And make no mistake. We are winning this war. For the CEWPA to benefit the Republic they would need to be consistently winning the war. Breaking even is not enough for a relatively weak state like the Republic. They need to be outright winning for month after month. As is, for the last year, they have been losing more often than they have been winning. They cannot afford this.

And I am not talking about a surrender. I am talking about the steps that the Republic needs to take to avoid having to surrender. Rebuking their current leadership for getting them into this stupid war in the first place is a vital step for any peaceful end.

But if they maintain their unwavering hostility to Amarr, then they may very well end up facing conditions where an actual surrender is the only option.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-12-17 02:40:06 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Sure. End slavery and we'll talk. Until then, not so much.


These sorts of demands miss the point entirely. The Republic cannot win this war. You have nothing to enforce your demands with.

We can talk in circles all day about the morality of slavery and accomplish exactly nothing. But that is not the issue here. The issue here is the simple fact that the Republic is hurt far more by this war than we are.

The road towards peace is the only road that ends in the survival of the Republic. But that road involves giving up on the idea that our culture of slave-holding somehow invalidates any treaty the Republic might sign with us.


What makes you think the Republic stands alone? As Del'Thul states: there can only be peace when the Empire releases its prisoners and accepts basic human rights. As to being able to afford this war... the Federation can.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#38 - 2014-12-17 02:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
While the Republics share of the warzone might comprise 15% of it's territory, it likely comprises 1% or less of it's total population. On both sides, all that's at stake are half-developed backwater colonies that were already in likely terrible economic conditions before the war tore apart what little prosperity they were able to make for themselves. They are the only ones who truly suffer in this affair.

It is a mistake to think this war is strangling the Republic, or it's government. In fact, all reports suggest that it's economy on their worlds is soaring on the wave of resurgent nationalism and patriotism. The Republic is not a frail entity on the verge of collapse as you seem to be painting it - The conflict barely truly touches it, just as it barely truly touches the Empire. Shakor is in power because he realizes this, and is able to profit from it both literally and politically. He knows what the people want, and gives it to them in such a way that does not endanger himself, with only a small price in blood.

Men like Shakor are a symptom, not a cause, lord Lok'ri. A moss in ichor, an infection that is begotten by a wound. Asking the Matari to throw him from his throne is pointless, because so long as the Republic is bordered by a power that holds it's citizens relatives and kinsmen in bondage and makes threatening overtures with regularity, another one will simply appear in his place, and start everything again.

If the war is to end, both the Empire and the Republic will need to change, not simply one or the other.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#39 - 2014-12-17 02:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
We changed quite a bit over the last century. Those changes were met with the breaking of treaties and invasions.

That doesn't give much incentive to continue to change, particularly when this war the Republic started doesn't actually threaten the Empire in any way.

If the Republic had wanted change to continue in the Empire, they were more likely to get it through Midular's diplomacy, not Shakor's belligerence. By Shakor carrying a hardline stance, he will only be encouraging the Empire to respond with a hardline stance.

The point Lord Lok'ri has made here is that this war does not actually accomplish anything for the Republic. It's a waste of time, lives, and resources. And as Mr. Toov pointed out, it prevents the involved parties from focusing on more pressing issues. As a method of trying to enforce demands on the Empire, it's an awfully poor one. The Republic stands to benefit more by ending it than continuing it.
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-12-17 03:08:07 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
We changed quite a bit over the last century. Those changes were met with the breaking of treaties and invasions.

That doesn't give much incentive to continue to change, particularly when this war the Republic started doesn't actually threaten the Empire in any way.

If the Republic had wanted change to continue in the Empire, they were more likely to get it through Midular, not Shakor. By Shakor carrying a hardline stance, he will only be encouraging the Empire to respond with a hardline stance.


How many more prisoners would have to die under Amarrian rule? the war liberated tens of millions of slaves, Jamyl's move was a political gesture, and one she can always simply repeal.