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High sec customs office tax now 100 times more !! post patch WTF?

Author
Vhan
Scalebane Syndicate
#101 - 2011-12-02 00:38:29 UTC
Dr Mercy wrote:

Carebears of course care about risk - that it the entire point of the definition. Their tolerance for risk is so much lower that they simply stop being able to have fun when is gets above a very low threshold.

CCP should not care too deeply about carebears who decide to quit over a change to PI.

Whilst a large population of the game may not involve themselves in PVP - it is PVP that drives the market.


You've missed the point of my post entirely. It is about shocking a playstyle and pointing out a risk versus reward already existed.

Carebears not caring for risk implies that they do not wish to involve themselves in a high risk situation, which is the same as a lower tolerance for risk. That is their playstyle.

CCP definitely has to consider their own form of risk with an update and that is risk analysis of a game change. It's common practice for a large system change to include a risk analysis along with the design documentation and technical doc (or, atleast, I've written many many risk analysis docs for changes).

Stating that CCP "should not care too deeply about carebears" is like stating "CCP should not care deeply about its largest share of customers". CCP would lose a massive amount of revenue with that attitude. I can only surmise that you are attempting to troll with that backward statement.

It's obvious that PvP drives a good portion of the market, but that is way off topic and has nothing to do with my post.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#102 - 2011-12-02 02:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Jack Dant wrote:

If you are losing clones in lowsec, you are doing it very wrong. I have only lost one pod in empire in the last 2 years, despite nearly 200 ship losses.

And with proper ships and scouting, losing haulers should be extremely rare.



Jack, I fly a blockade runner cloaked.

And, if you're not getting podded, than whoever is the tackler is for your local PvP corp, sucks.

I always factor in the possibility of at least two losses, because I have to contend with heavy alliance action in my area. Hot dropping carriers isn't their only trick, you know. If I don't lose them, I made additional profit. But when I figure my numbers, I always factor it in.


Side effect of having spent quite a bit of time with a chokepoint nearby and a seriously bad relationship with both pirates and a certain alliance.
Broomhilde
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#103 - 2011-12-02 02:53:18 UTC
Frederheim wrote:
PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP.



^^ This, Im done. Yeah, yeah I know I can simply offset this by raising my own prices and raping customers, but thats OK, ill pass.

Done.
Marsan
#104 - 2011-12-02 03:20:31 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.

I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.

To recoup one POCO, it would have to run uninterrupted for two years to make back the initial investment.

Let me point that out again: it would take TWO YEARS to make the isk back.

Now, granted, this is at current prices, which are guaranteed to climb rapidly, and this is assuming that nothing ever happens to it.

But just think about that. Two Years.

Risk vs reward indeed.


You are think about it the wrong way. If you replaced the POCO, which I question you could by yourself, sure it would take years to reap the profits. On the other hand if you set the tax rate at a reasonable level you'd be making money off all the folks using your POCO. Now honestly I don't see a single player doing that but there will be low sec and null sec corps that set reasonable tax rates. To profit from the taxes and/or provide a people for them to gank.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#105 - 2011-12-02 03:44:27 UTC
Marsan wrote:


You are think about it the wrong way. If you replaced the POCO, which I question you could by yourself, sure it would take years to reap the profits. On the other hand if you set the tax rate at a reasonable level you'd be making money off all the folks using your POCO. Now honestly I don't see a single player doing that but there will be low sec and null sec corps that set reasonable tax rates. To profit from the taxes and/or provide a people for them to gank.



Marsan, I have about three planets that I even have a single other player using.

How much you think I'm gonna get at 10%?

BTW: I actually did look into doing one myself: while it will only take me an hour or two to kill the existing interbus unit, the 200m that the POCO currently costs seems like wasted isk.
Katowen
#106 - 2011-12-02 09:10:53 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:


I once had a boss tell us at the beginning of the meeting we were going to have a 2% pay cut in the coming year. We were paid on commission and our rate was being cut from 8% to 6%. Needless to say, my paycheck went down more than 2%.

The issue with the changes to PI are they did two things at once. The reindexed prices and they changed the rate.

So yes the Tax Rate went up, and the index went up. Now people are trying to attribute both increases to one factor. You have to seperate the two.



That's the root of the problem right there....

CCP didn't say a WORD about the base price of the goods being the average of Nov 2011 trade price index now for this release as compared to the 2009 average for the index of the good.

If they would have said the index price was also going up, we would have heard a lot more pre-whining but people wouldn't be as bitchy as they are now.

Katowen

Katowen

Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#107 - 2011-12-02 10:08:11 UTC
Forum ate full reply Sad

Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Jack, I fly a blockade runner cloaked.

And, if you're not getting podded, than whoever is the tackler is for your local PvP corp, sucks.

Not really. With the spam warp method, your pod is in warp before it even shows on everybody's overview. You can't start to lock it. I know this, because people do it to me all the time. And saving extreme bad luck or pilot error, you shouldn't really lose a BR.

Quote:
Marsan, I have about three planets that I even have a single other player using.

How much you think I'm gonna get at 10%?

Roughly 200-300k isk/day per colony on the planet. So you would nearly double your profits!

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2011-12-02 10:31:38 UTC
Broomhilde wrote:
Frederheim wrote:
PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP.



^^ This, Im done. Yeah, yeah I know I can simply offset this by raising my own prices and raping customers, but thats OK, ill pass.

Done.


You do know that those customers (like me, who do business with POSes and T2 production) are perfectly prepared for this "raping" of yours. Please keep selling the goods at a price you find profitable. I'll keep buying them and then shifting the cost to the people buying the goods I produce.

Or you can give up and let someone else take up the slack.

Either way, I'm a buyer of PI goods (4 bil ISK bought over the past week, partially to top up stockpiles as the prices are heading up) and I will remain a buyer of PI goods, no matter what the price is. It is up to you (and other PI producers) to determine what price to sell the goods at. I'm quite sure the market will make sure the lowest profitable price is on top of the "sell orders" list.

If you cannot comprehend this, may I suggest some education in business econ 101?
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2011-12-02 10:36:48 UTC
Katowen wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:


I once had a boss tell us at the beginning of the meeting we were going to have a 2% pay cut in the coming year. We were paid on commission and our rate was being cut from 8% to 6%. Needless to say, my paycheck went down more than 2%.

The issue with the changes to PI are they did two things at once. The reindexed prices and they changed the rate.

So yes the Tax Rate went up, and the index went up. Now people are trying to attribute both increases to one factor. You have to seperate the two.



That's the root of the problem right there....

CCP didn't say a WORD about the base price of the goods being the average of Nov 2011 trade price index now for this release as compared to the 2009 average for the index of the good.

If they would have said the index price was also going up, we would have heard a lot more pre-whining but people wouldn't be as bitchy as they are now.

Katowen


Initially CCP was just as clueless as most PI producers seem to be. Hence the announcement about "taxes are going to be doubled".

However, some players did the math and pointed out that at these completely insignificant tax rates (where "5 percent tax" was not actually 5 percent tax on the market price of the goods, but on some completely imaginary base price that then worked out to a fraction of a single percent) meant that nobody would build POCOs because it would literally take years to pay off the investment even if you could work at 0% tax (or tax others, even at 100% "tax rate").

Then CCP suddenly realized that what they thought was "5% tax on PI goods" was not actually that, so they revised the "prices for taxation purposes" at the very last moment - a very much needed change - and failed to communicate that properly.

Now the taxes actually reflect reality. If POCO taxes at 10%, it will be 10% of a rate that is at least close to market prices. Personally I'd wish the "prices for taxation purposes" would automatically be recalculated monthly or quarterly, based on average real market prices, but that involves :code: and :effort: from CCP, so until then this last minute hack job works as a placeholder.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2011-12-02 10:39:06 UTC
Marsan wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.

I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.

To recoup one POCO, it would have to run uninterrupted for two years to make back the initial investment.

Let me point that out again: it would take TWO YEARS to make the isk back.

Now, granted, this is at current prices, which are guaranteed to climb rapidly, and this is assuming that nothing ever happens to it.

But just think about that. Two Years.

Risk vs reward indeed.


You are think about it the wrong way. If you replaced the POCO, which I question you could by yourself, sure it would take years to reap the profits. On the other hand if you set the tax rate at a reasonable level you'd be making money off all the folks using your POCO. Now honestly I don't see a single player doing that but there will be low sec and null sec corps that set reasonable tax rates. To profit from the taxes and/or provide a people for them to gank.


Only reason POCO replacement isn't happening yet is because the price of POCO hardware is still over-inflated. Only people buying POCO structures are math-deficient WH dwellers that just want that magical 0% tax rate for their private hole.

Give it a few weeks.
Vihura
Vihura Cor
#111 - 2011-12-02 11:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vihura
All complaining about taxes are rateards just recalculate all prices and start sell at new price if you sell at old price you are dump as hell and you deserve to lose.Evil Fack some people just don't want adapt and learn.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2011-12-02 13:27:50 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Marsan wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.

I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.

To recoup one POCO, it would have to run uninterrupted for two years to make back the initial investment.

Let me point that out again: it would take TWO YEARS to make the isk back.

Now, granted, this is at current prices, which are guaranteed to climb rapidly, and this is assuming that nothing ever happens to it.

But just think about that. Two Years.

Risk vs reward indeed.


You are think about it the wrong way. If you replaced the POCO, which I question you could by yourself, sure it would take years to reap the profits. On the other hand if you set the tax rate at a reasonable level you'd be making money off all the folks using your POCO. Now honestly I don't see a single player doing that but there will be low sec and null sec corps that set reasonable tax rates. To profit from the taxes and/or provide a people for them to gank.


Only reason POCO replacement isn't happening yet is because the price of POCO hardware is still over-inflated. Only people buying POCO structures are math-deficient WH dwellers that just want that magical 0% tax rate for their private hole.

Give it a few weeks.

1. POCO's are made using P4 mats so as they go up in price due to the tax increase the cost of installing POCO's will go up. The price they are costing right now is the lowest they will ever cost.
2. Learn wtf you are talking about before talking about something.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#113 - 2011-12-02 14:39:59 UTC
The cost of cap ship parts is not likely to go down much because of this, the initial cost of the gantry is in the 100m range. The additional PI items to bring it online are currently about 90m and climbing in my region.
Katowen
#114 - 2011-12-02 17:45:19 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:

Now the taxes actually reflect reality. If POCO taxes at 10%, it will be 10% of a rate that is at least close to market prices. Personally I'd wish the "prices for taxation purposes" would automatically be recalculated monthly or quarterly, based on average real market prices, but that involves :code: and :effort: from CCP, so until then this last minute hack job works as a placeholder.


I agree with you...I do wish that the price index of PI good would adjust base on market values over X amount of time too. That way, taxes are not static or too low / high for a PI type.

Katowen

Katowen

Boris Ginnungagap
Doomheim
#115 - 2011-12-02 17:52:49 UTC
Frederheim wrote:
PI is completely worthless to do now. 1 day of export costs from a single planet cost about 5k yesterday. Today it costs 550,000. How the hell can I sell it at a profit if it costs me 110 times as much to export off the planet? All 3 of my accounts canceled. Screw CCP.

You add that 550 000 into your sell order. Simple.
Ragneir
Haul Miners Union
#116 - 2011-12-02 17:58:45 UTC
I'm derpy the care bear. I like magical rainbows, peace and love.

O noes CCP has coded in something that nerfs my high sec income its time to complain!

I fully understand that I would have to group up with pvpers to maintain PI in low or null sec but that screws up with my fluffy vibes and that is a no go.

I could go into a WH but I could run into pirates! Even though WH pirates are not too common I don't want blood on my fur!


So my best resort is to complain about a mechanic that can't get along with my Fluffalicious gameplay. I refuse to adapt to new mechanics so only change low sec and 0.0!
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#117 - 2011-12-02 23:49:54 UTC
It's fun to see a goonswarm alt like Regneir try and troll.

Mostly because if they, say, nerfed rats, moons, and arknor into the ground like PI, they'd be one of hte first groups to line up and scream.
FastJack316
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2011-12-03 01:58:35 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
It's fun to see a goonswarm alt like Regneir try and troll.

Mostly because if they, say, nerfed rats, moons, and arknor into the ground like PI, they'd be one of hte first groups to line up and scream.


Arkonor? Really? Really?

You think we mine?
Killstealing
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2011-12-03 02:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Killstealing
0% tax in my riskless null sec space 8)

also hahaha he thinks people who own 76 tek moons mine

hahaha we own one and even we don't mine
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#120 - 2011-12-03 06:35:26 UTC
FastJack316 wrote:


Arkonor? Really? Really?

You think we mine?


You, personally, no, I doubt you have the patience. But others do, and they work for, or are alts of, goons, meaning they're part of your income too.

And, notice, neither of them denied the rats bit.