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Back after 5 years. Confused. Nighthawk far greater DPS than Tengu?

Author
Colonel Jinx
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-12-14 03:13:42 UTC
I've just returned to eve from after 5 years of inactivity and am quite perplexed by this. Please help me.

I've got my old trusty nighthawk out and have seen the new skin (won't comment) and had to adjust a few things based on the changes made to the ships modules, then i felt like it wasn't as powerful as before.

So i bought a tengu, maxed out the caldari offensive skills (for the purposes of this testing) and fitted it out.

Here's the confusing part, and yes, I've been researching for about a week now, i've checked threads all over the place so I didn't commit a crime of asking what is common knowledge, dozens of threads actually, and everybody seems to say "the tengu has FAR greater dps, but nighthawk wins in other areas, like tank etc"

Well... does it? agreement seems to be this "far greater dps" but...

Every single test i run either in eve ship fitting itself, in null sec ship fitting, or in EFT, all come back saying that my nighthawk wins in every dps fight. not to mention the shield is significantly larger, but i'm focusing on dps here.

So i even just reverted to basics, all basic mods (as in, non faction) just to test the dps of one launcher. ignore the fact that my setup here isn't great. it's just for testing.

4 x ballistic control II,
1 x heavy missile launcher, scourge
1 x bay accelerator rig
1 x warhead pew pew damage rig

in eve nighthawk = 93.1 dps (so x 5 = 465.5)
in eve tengu = 71 dps (so x 6 = (426)

Unless the threads i've read are all outdated, perhaps with some... new nerf. the nighthawk just owns my tengu in every area, dps, shield, tank, everything except for speed (woopty do)

Am I reading this wrong or is this just how it is? What's the point of the tengu then, it's a slightly more crappy but horribly more expensive version of the nighthawk.

:S

Appreciate your insights.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#2 - 2014-12-14 05:21:16 UTC
People use HAM Tengus these days, and rig for range.
Colonel Jinx
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-12-14 05:34:19 UTC
I did the math on the HAM too.

HAM's still more powerful on a nighthawk.
With my skills
136.7dps on a single ham vs 104.3 on nighthawk.

Is it just the range? IS that the only reason tengu exists, to have rigs increase the range?
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#4 - 2014-12-14 05:48:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Aerie Evingod
Nightahwk: 830 DPS, 17km range
Tengu: 886 DPS, 25km range

[Tengu, DPS]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile


Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node

[Nighthawk, DPS]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]


Then there are the rest of the stats. Tengu has 213m/s base speed and 5.1s align versus 175 and 9s for the Nighthawk.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#5 - 2014-12-14 05:53:30 UTC
You're fitting your Tengu wrong. Tengu has far better range and damage with HAMs.
Orlacc
#6 - 2014-12-14 06:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Orlacc
What are your Tengu's subsystems?

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Colonel Jinx
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-12-14 06:11:34 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
You're fitting your Tengu wrong. Tengu has far better range and damage with HAMs.


Like for like, with the same rigs, the NH does more. i even wasted money trying other rigs, HW does more damage with HAMs. By a fair bit. It 's not a matter of my rigs being wrong. I'd love to know what you base that comment on, because I can't replicate it. The only thing Tengu has going for it is range, my NH does more damage with HAM and H. and anything.

And my subsystems are
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented thingy
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#8 - 2014-12-14 06:15:05 UTC
Get a newer version of EFT. I posted the fit that gets better DPS.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#9 - 2014-12-14 06:16:06 UTC
You're using 6 Launchers on a Tengu, right?
Colonel Jinx
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-12-14 06:17:22 UTC
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Get a newer version of EFT. I posted the fit that gets better DPS.


I have the latest EFT. But I can actually try your fit out in real, in eve.
I think I've already tried it. I'll even provide screenshots if you'd like

My NH does more damage :(
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#11 - 2014-12-14 06:21:54 UTC
Colonel Jinx wrote:
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Get a newer version of EFT. I posted the fit that gets better DPS.


I have the latest EFT. But I can actually try your fit out in real, in eve.
I think I've already tried it. I'll even provide screenshots if you'd like

My NH does more damage :(


Then its because of your skills. Dont do it in game, FFS. Unless you are willing to link your eveboard. All Vs and a nighthawk deals LESS damage than a Tengu fit like I posted.
Colonel Jinx
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-12-14 06:28:11 UTC
Okay okay I'll use EFT, don't stress:)
Right. You're on to something.

Using the config you posted above;
When I used EFT with an ALL V character. I did 829 in NH.
When i used my actual account in EFT, i still got 829 in NH.

When I used my character for Tengu, I got 759
With all Vs i got 886.

Sigh, so there's a skill out there (or two, or three) somewhere I haven't trained to V that affects Tengu...
tengu subsystem skills
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#13 - 2014-12-14 06:31:02 UTC
Caldari Offensive Systems?
Colonel Jinx
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-12-14 06:34:08 UTC
2d left until offensive systems reaches V. Didn't think it would give me such a huge leap, but i guess it will.

Difference in shield though makes me wonder how much better this ship is for L4 and above, but i'll find that out too i guess.
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#15 - 2014-12-14 06:36:29 UTC
The Amplification Node defensive subsystem gives a 50% bonus to local reps. Makes it tank pretty well. It excels against serpentis and guristas.
Colonel Jinx
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-12-14 06:40:30 UTC
Thanks, I'll try it out soon.

One final thought.

Using my skills, I fitted the fit you provided to my real NH and tengu. WIth my implants and what not, it's slightly higher than indicated above.

NH - 872.8
Tengu 790

That final skill level in tengu offensive to V is going to have to give me almost 100 DPS to beat the NH. Just don't see it. But I'll see in 2 days.
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#17 - 2014-12-14 06:46:22 UTC
Fine, throw some implants and a T2 calefaction rig and the tengu is going 1055 DPS. So what?

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#18 - 2014-12-15 07:39:49 UTC
tengu has a smaller sig radius, and goes 600m/s+ with the AB sub system, so when in combat it takes way less damage than the NH... I really think that the nighthawk is just a massive paperweight these days, don't think I've undocked one in years now.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#19 - 2014-12-15 09:38:31 UTC
Unleash the Nighthawks! Free the Nighthawks! Big smile
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-12-15 13:18:19 UTC
While you were away Heavy Missiles got nerfed hard. Now it is the Heavy Assault missiles running the show.
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