EVE General Discussion

This is what gets posted in Osmon local every 30 minutes or so:

"Dear citizens! Please be reminded that this system (as all hisec) is policed by the New Order, and that a valid permit is required to commit any mining, hauling or other PvE in here. Failing to oblige, you can end up being destroyed as a criminal. So, follow the law of the CODE - http://www.lawofhighsec.com/the-law , Get a permit! Low cost of just 10m ISK for a full year. Convo me to buy one! Otherwise, have a nice day, and may James 315's wisdom guide you through your life!"

First of all its extortion, and people hate that, they are setting themselves up as being overlords of miners and of course people will hate that too, defining people as being a criminal by not accepting their overlordship, then a semi-religious quote about a person who is a Goon and who hates hisec pubbie players and recognised as such by quite a few miners. It is a massive wind up rammed down their throats.

Next thing is that mining is not profitable for all but bots and extreme multi boxers, but people do it to unwind, they are likely chilling out and are physically and mentally tired, so they mine while listening to music and reading or watching a movie, then along comes one of these smug arrogant extortionists and blows up their ship, then posts their loss mail in local and uses it to extort.

Its not surprising that they get some pretty salty language or even hate aimed at them at times.

While their advice to tank their ship or use a mining ship which can be tanked very well is valid and good advice, you often see them go on about clicking D-scan, checking local and rubbish like that, but Osmon has 135 to 240 people in it. That advice is just tosh and they say it to annoy people.

They also have a snap shot of peoples responses to their ganking activties http://www.minerbumping.com/p/bingo.html which they use to annoy people further. The person will stay polite and not swear and use this manner to irritate people further, being sure to admonish people who swear at them. They also go on about CONCORD a lot presumably because they like to rub it in that CONCORD is stopping people from being able to shoot them, many risk adverse players have had CONCORD moments when going after people what they thought were shootable so many are too worried about getting it wrong to shoot until they are certain that they they can and the opportunity has gone, Catalysts warp fast don't they.

It is a very effective griefing approach and one which I find extremely fun to watch.

Using such sophisticated methods to to get at people who mainly want to chill out doing a boring and fairly mindless and inefficient way to earn ISK and where a single gank delete hours and hours of work is certainly something to wonder about. Someone went to a lot of trouble to set up a system to annoy a certain type of people. Its impressive stuff.

As many people know CODE first arrived in Gallente space to interdict ice-mining from those regions as part of the ISK making activities of some Goons, they are also operating as part of Freighter ganking fleets with Goons and many people have only just clocked that there is a heavy Goon ruin their fun involvement here, but its always been there.

It is no surprise to see the best hisec ice mining system in Eve being camped by CODE all the time is it.

Often you will see the words hisec pubbie thrown about, this is a sort of dehumanisation which is very effective in making people see the person who they are targeting as a non-human who deserves it, fascinating stuff.

I only mine if I want to get some stuff that I cannot be bothered to pay for, or when I feel too tired and bored to do anything else, because of that I mine only in ships that are tanked to the max and as a result I never get bothered, I also will not be out afk, even though in my opinion checking D-scan and local only works in a system with hardly anyone in it.

When looking for something to do a couple of months back I had a look at CODE, the thing is that they have it sussed, bumping can never be made a criminal flag action and their gankers are too difficult to go after as you will spend hours camping a station for a small chance of catching them warping to an instra.

Now you can step back a bit assess the sudden burst of anger by a ganked miner as hate or you can assess a very skilful setup to play on a certain group as hate. I for one see them as playing the game in a very sophisticated way to garner hate against them knowing full well that their prey has no real effective way to get back at them and only rage creating tears.

Hate to miners, indeed...

And I suggested that people read that reply by Black Pedro to La Rynx a few times, skilful posting at its best!

EDIT: added hisec to a key sentence

Personally I don't give a flying monkeys if you blow stuff up for profit or not, we are talking about different levels of gaming here which makes Eve a truly fascinating game.

So put words into my mouth to justify yourself, and a snappy little HTFU last sentence if it makes you feel better, it bothers me not.

Do not fear, for I did understand that. I thought this thread was about how for some reason people will abuse miners, who are minding their own business and trying to avoid notice, whilst being explicitly picked upon by certain players.

The thing that annoys me though is that the mechanics favour easy kills. Let's take the worst case scenario for a few miners. They log in to their worm hole system, scan down all the holes and it is the two static exit ones. They relax a little.
Turns out there is one small asteroid anomoly.

A sabre jumps through from a new worm-hole and warps to the anomoly that is 16 AU away. It takes the sabre 1.7 seconds to warp there and another second or two to bubble up.
It takes quite a few seconds for the miners to see a problem on D-scan, raise the alarm and testing it with near perfect navigation skill a futher 20 seconds to pick a book mark or celestial body and get into warp toward.

There are so many cases where miners and industrials have absolutely no hope and thus my ire is mostly at CCP for making it so unbalanced. Mechanics can change. Human nature will not.

This kind of is the game though. I am not so familiar with WH mechanics only venturing there on occasion, but isn't the whole point of them to be "high-risk, high-reward" areas? Perhaps wormhole mining isn't rewarding enough (although I do seem to make a fair bit when I engage in my only guilty PvE pleasure, WH ninja gas mining) but I don't see how you will "balance" the fight without making WHs safer.

Perhaps there is a way to even the playing field a bit in some circumstances (like in your example), but you are always going to have the mismatch of forces everywhere in Eve being the norm, especially when some players are engaging in PvE and some are roaming looking for PvP. WH miners are going to lose ships, even highsec miners are going to lose ships, and this should happen more so if they take risks for increased rewards.

Industrial ships are suppose to have no hope (although the isn't really the case, at least in highsec) to defeat their opponents - they are engaging in an activity to make ISK. At best they can hope to escape or hold out for reinforcements. In highsec one form of that is CONCORD, but everywhere in New Eden (including highsec) you are suppose to provide security for your ISK-making enterprises. There should be no way to make an industrial activity free of risk in this game without you putting in some effort/ISK/vigilance for that protection or the risk vs. reward balance of the game will be broken.

There are many responses to my post but I have other plans for today than answering each one. So, picking this one.

The problem is that it is heavily weighted against miners. Yes, you can set up two warp off points and slow boat between them. Yes you can sit around for an hour putting warp disruption bubbles around the belt in almost every direction.

One of the main things though is that miners have to put in 100x more effort than someone looking for an easy kill. EVE is complex but the odds are stacked against the miners in general

(Side note: Rabid care bears make for really good miner killers when you have a full null sec war going on and need to cut supplies.)

As an example, "oh so very coincidentally" today; CODE managed to get across many systems with intel coming in and kill a procurer that apparently got stuck humping the invisible part of an asteroid.
The CODE team was wiped out and they lost a lot. I was sorry to not be there at the time.

Wanted to high light the "point of ideological failure" here.

Outsmarting/outplaying another player in a game like EVE ALWAYS demands unequal amounts of effort. The idea that everyone should be putting for the same amount of 'effort' is simply untrue.

I put in effort (and time) to stay safe while making isk in EVE. The amount of effort it takes a null sec alliance to take sov, upgrade a system, and use the system to maintain it's index levels FAR outweighs the amount of effort it takes someone to train into a combat ship, go to that null system and kill someone ratting or mining. The effort it takes me to get my ratting Machariel out to null and keep it supplied with faction ammo also outweighs the effort someone trying to kill me puts in.

This has been true in every single game I've ever played. Surviving HAS to require more effort than destroying, because if surviving is 'easy', no one ever gets killed. Learning how to survive and putting in the effort to earn the rewards IS the game for a real and true pve player.

It's the exact same in real life. It takes WAY more effort to secure your home or business than it does to pick up a rock off the street, shatter a window and rob a place. It takes more effort to work for a living honorably than to be a criminal who lives off of stealing the fruits of others labor. It's the individual's responsibility to make those bad things harder for the criminal, and that takes effort.

A 100x is a bit hyperbolic, but yes, resource gatherers should have to put in significant effort to secure themselves completely. But the standard of 100% secure is exceptionally high - when I mine gas I mine enough to replace the cost of my T2 Venture in less than 10 minutes. If I lose a ship occasionally it is of no consequence, it is just the cost of doing business so I spend no time on arranging or implementing any defense other than "continual Dscan vigilance".

Is it just the loss mail that bothers you? Because I imagine even if WH ore mine pays much less, you are still mining the cost of mining barge every hour. Is WH space really so dangerous that you get caught more than once an hour? If so, the solution is to buff mining yield, not increase safety by some mechanic.

If you don't have a viable force backing you up then just risk disposable ships, if you do then bring out your yield-fit exhumer mining fleet and hope you get found and you then might get one of your "good fights". It's how the risk vs. reward is suppose to work.

Now in highsec this isn't remotely true. Just flying a tanked Skiff/Procurer makes you immune to all but the most organized (and well funded) gank attempts and requires no additional effort and at just the small cost of a few percent less yield.

Lets see what other issues could a worm hole dweller have, aha being podded, so add time to know where the WH's that they have located go out to so they can get back in along with the defensive bubbles. Why do people miss the obvious issue?

I have never been podded while gas mining in a wormhole even when they get my ship, but I will take your word for it that it is a significant problem for some.

We do seem to be far off-topic now so I'll try to summarize to get us back on track. Miners, everywhere in New Eden, are targets for those that like to blow things up. The miners are gathering resources so they have to be at some risk, otherwise the sandbox is broken. Therefore, it is up to these miners to take precautions, be vigilant, and bring protection when needed as they are the ones benefiting from the addition of resources to the economy their actions produce. No one hates them, but many enjoy watching them explode.

Now, one thing I do hate is when miners (and lately haulers) decide that they are entitled to these resources risk-free and come to the forums advocating "balance" changes (AKA ganking nerfs) to the game to make their job easier. There are already enough tools to make your mining (and hauling) 100% safe in highsec. In the other spaces I am less familiar with the nuances, but those are places where you are suppose to provide your own security. If that is not possible for some reason, I will listen to suggestions to improve that specific situation, but in general, ISK making activities should be dangerous and subject to disruption by your opponent or even a random passerby if you have not secured your operation sufficiently.

Wrong, it's simple gaming etiquette. The "gf" is a simple polite congratulatory gesture from the loser to the victor in any PvP scenario. You see it all the time at the end of any fight, "gg"'s and "gf"'s get thrown around a lot to indicate the end of the game and that there's no hard feelings. EVE is no exception, in fact BRAVE make a point of keeping it classy by offering our opponents "gf"'s at the end of fights, win or lose; a policy I embrace whole-heartedly. It is after all, just a game.

This is why it's considered good form for a miner to "gf" a ganker when he killed. The miner lost in a PvP fight and to show there's no hard feelings, offer that polite gesture.


The best counter to which, is education; not to simply stop ganking.


Where? Their flaws are pointed out, but that's empirical, not emotional. Where is this hate posted?


Wrong. I don't, as is with any player that understands the nature of EVE renders your ships disposable. They are consumable commodities that are lost when you lose a fight, nothing more. If you're becoming emotionally invested in your ship, you're doing it wrong. Investment in a lost ship is not a valid excuse to bash on people who beat you in a fight, period.


Newbros are frequently told how to defend themselves. They're instructed on fittings, different ships and useful intel tools such as d-scan, intel and intelligence channels.